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Turner Bikes is back.... but different.

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#81 ·
Jayem said:
I have a hard time getting into the 6" and greater, heck even 140+mm, 29ers. They are just too lethargic with enough rubber on them to take advantage of the travel IMO. Wreckoning, Ripmo, Switchblade, they are all very capable bikes that can plow down any slope, but they just don't turn at speed like I want and take more effort IME to do lots of stuff. They don't fly off the ground as easy and you have to pedal harder to get back up to speed in between obstacles. It's not that they can't do that kind of stuff, but the wheels make such a big difference to me that it becomes more of a chore to ride those bikes. I think mullet may be more where it's at, but no good options really exist yet. With 170mm, staggered tires and angleset, the RFX isn't very steep, but the ST is fairly slack obviously compared to more modern stuff. Not sure that makes any real difference going downhill.

29er roll-over is always superior. It virtually eliminates wheel-stoppers/holes. I think this is mostly a function of the front wheel (when I was riding enduro 29er). It takes more faith and momentum often with a smaller wheel size to not endo or get stopped by the same features. In the PNW there are several places I ride where there's definitely a minimum speed, any slower and you simply won't have the momentum to prevent this from happening. With a bigger front wheel, you can definitely do it more comfortably/slower and probably faster.
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My initial experience with 29ers years ago was similar to yours. I put off going to 29 as long as I could. A 29er is also a bike that benefits from lighter carbon wheels as wheel weight is its greatest downside IMO. My Ripmo build was budget with, good suspension, carbon wheels, Deore everything else (that I will upgrade over time). I demoed a lot of bikes before settling on the Ripmo. Like the RFX, I found the Ripmo to be one of the few bikes that actually lived up to the hype.

My typical ride is essentially over terrain that resembles a jumble of rocks that a 3-axle trucked dumped into a pile. Steep terrain that can get rough and fast, with tight turns in the worst places. The Ripmo surprisingly turns just as well as the RFX, in some cases better. I attribute this to confidence and stability you get from the slack head angle. Flat corners are no competition, the 29 wins. I also cut my bars down to 770, I've been running them too wide for years, and this brought more agility with it. Yes, the 29 isn't as snappy as the smaller wheels, however you carry so much speed. Some of my rougher rides have been 15-20min faster without even trying. The pedaling is very efficient, not as efficient as the RFX, but efficient. On the flip side, the Ripmo seems to have a touch less anti-squat than the RFX, but that works in certain pedally-rocky scenarios. Overall, it was a good next bike from the RFX. It would have been interesting to see Dave's take on a bike like this, pretty sure he would have knocked it out of the park.
 
#83 ·
VMaxx said:
I don't know, my experience has been quite different. I've been riding my RFX since 2016, with upgraded suspension that I've dialed in pretty well, and the Ripmo leaves it in the dust on the descents. Don't get me wrong, the RFX is an amazing bike, It still has a place on some of my rides, but when the trail gets steep and technical, the Ripmo is the one. You're comparing a new bike with one that has 6yr old geometry, the length and slackness alone give it an advantage. Add in the X2 shock and the Onyx fork that elevate it even more.
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What Jayem said ^^^ but glad it's working out for you. Offering was just more lively to me as a 29r. But I still grab the RFX when things get burly. Agreed on the newer geometry but the Evil Wreckoning felt the same way to me as the Ripmo. That is, a big travel wagon wheel bike with a long wheelbase.
 
#84 ·
Wines of WA said:
Bicycle Retailer has a story about Turner's new metallic direction. Includes a teaser quote from Dave about a full suspension bike being in the design phase! Turner Bikes turns to titanium | Bicycle Retailer and Industry News
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Funny they mentioned he playing catch up. I thought these were sound decisions for some time. And then I thought he was ahead of the curve with the longer, lower, slacker. He just didn't push the boundaries like others have. I distinctly remember debating getting the 2014 Flux because the bottom bracket was so low. I ride in a lot of rock gardens going up and down here in Hawaii. I know I hit my pedals and cranks on a lot of stuff.

1922218
 
#85 ·
There is no fighting the trend..younger riders with cash do buy what is trendy. I personally do not like very low BBs which is why I have completely stopped buying my usual rotation of 2 bikes every 1-2 years for many years (some may say that was a bit excessive). Now some are so slack too that they simply seem to be mini downhill bikes, that are no fun to ride in slow tech sections and not that great to climb slow sections either. They also feel so long and floppy on tight switchbacks. I don't have the time or desire to keep demo-ing bike after bike to find one that actually rides like a trail bike that you don't have to pin at 110% and weight the front wheel to bring it into its element. However, that seems to be most of them. I'm looking forward to what Dave comes out with. Just out of nostalgia, I'll probably buy it anyway.
 
#86 ·
I just want to chime in that I am glad turner bikes is still around. After a hiatus from riding, I'm getting back into it. I busted out my Flux today and damn do I miss riding that thing. Anyone know if the new offerings are made in the USA?
 
#87 ·
No, the titanium frames are not made in USA. >$2500 frames with tapered head tubes, threaded BB, double butted main tubes, internal cable routing (love it or hate it, it costs money to include) tapered and shaped chainstays, polished finish with etched graphic, 3-4 bottle mounts, custom dropouts and other CNC beauty bits. Not possible.

New geo is better. In hindsight I was stupid blind not to jump on longer TT, Reach and slacker HTA sooner. Like 2012.. I now recommend riders get a bike built in the last 3 years, every day. Due to so many factors, a new school bike is notably better in every way. Yes, it takes awhile to get used to it. They don't steer, they must be leaned. Yes, most of us need to cut the 800mm bar so we CAN lean it enough to make it turn. Most of the pros are not running over 780mm nowadays, even the big guys. And they are super flexible,, allowing them to bend and flex their body to push the bike deep into a turn. So get out the saw and customize the bar. The stability of the new geo bikes (even the hardtails :) is mind blowing. But, 'longer' is completely random, with some brands not having a longer TT than the carbon Flux and RFX. Whilst others have jumped a frame size gap completely. The Nitrous is like that, with an ETT over 24" on a Medium, it really allows / demands a short stem and still have a proper power pedaling position on the bike. With the steepening of the STA the Reach numbers have sky rocketed, so combined with longer top tubes, and slacker head angles, really add a LOT more stability.

DT
 
#89 ·
turnerbikes.com

Turner Bikes - Titanium Mountain & Gravel Bikes

Turner Bikes has been making Mountain, Gravel, and All Road bikes since 1994. Titanium MTB, Gravel & All-Road frames are in stock. Plus our collection of small parts to service previous Turner bikes.
turnerbikes.com turnerbikes.com

I was surprised to get am email shot from Turner. Kinda glad they are still around. My Sultan was the best bike I've ever owned.
 
#90 ·
turnerbikes said:
No, the titanium frames are not made in USA. >$2500 frames with tapered head tubes, threaded BB, double butted main tubes, internal cable routing (love it or hate it, it costs money to include) tapered and shaped chainstays, polished finish with etched graphic, 3-4 bottle mounts, custom dropouts and other CNC beauty bits. Not possible.

New geo is better. In hindsight I was stupid blind not to jump on longer TT, Reach and slacker HTA sooner. Like 2012.. I now recommend riders get a bike built in the last 3 years, every day. Due to so many factors, a new school bike is notably better in every way. Yes, it takes awhile to get used to it. They don't steer, they must be leaned. Yes, most of us need to cut the 800mm bar so we CAN lean it enough to make it turn. Most of the pros are not running over 780mm nowadays, even the big guys. And they are super flexible,, allowing them to bend and flex their body to push the bike deep into a turn. So get out the saw and customize the bar. The stability of the new geo bikes (even the hardtails :) is mind blowing. But, 'longer' is completely random, with some brands not having a longer TT than the carbon Flux and RFX. Whilst others have jumped a frame size gap completely. The Nitrous is like that, with an ETT over 24" on a Medium, it really allows / demands a short stem and still have a proper power pedaling position on the bike. With the steepening of the STA the Reach numbers have sky rocketed, so combined with longer top tubes, and slacker head angles, really add a LOT more stability.

DT
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Yup - I agree the new geometry bikes are a quantum level above, in the handling and performance realm, when compared to the old school bikes. I can't believe how much better my 2019 GT sensor is compared to my 2004 5-spot. The 5-spot is like being on stilts by comparison. I'm glad I get to ride these new wonder bikes, but lament the years spent on bikes that could have handled this good, even with the vintage suspenders......Don't glorify the past...the new bikes are way better than any past Turner. Hate to say it, but eetz tru
 
#91 ·
Haha, you're right Joker. I send at least 1 email a week, sometimes more, to customers riding old Turner Bikes saying the same thing you just wrote. New bikes are better in every way. And from a couple of retailer friends I hear it is not just a Turner Bike issue, but riders both road and MTB of many brand. Then they go hop in a late model vehicle and as they drive away using 'hands free' on their upteen hundred dollar phone to call their SO and complain about the mean man in the shop. Hey, if they're still driving an old vehicle and using a flip phone I get it. All this new school talk means nothing if they can't afford it due to limited dollars. But for the rest of the riders out there, enjoying state of the art parts in every aspect of their life, get a new freakin bike, they're better, just like new cars, phones, rechargeable drills, zoodlers, lap tops, running shoes, seemingly everything but a sledge hammer. eetz tru.

DT
 
#92 ·
TTTURNER said:
They look at me like I am crazy when they see me climbing Dunn Road. :)
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I don't get that look often. I don't see anyone climbing Dunn (just see eBikes riding down it).

turnerbikes said:
Hey, if they're still driving an old vehicle and using a flip phone I get it.
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I don't use a flip phone, just the cheapest Android I can find ;)


My van is a 1995 though. Bike is a 2018 :ROFLMAO:
 
#93 ·
turnerbikes said:
Haha, you're right Joker. I send at least 1 email a week, sometimes more, to customers riding old Turner Bikes saying the same thing you just wrote. New bikes are better in every way. And from a couple of retailer friends I hear it is not just a Turner Bike issue, but riders both road and MTB of many brand. Then they go hop in a late model vehicle and as they drive away using 'hands free' on their upteen hundred dollar phone to call their SO and complain about the mean man in the shop. Hey, if they're still driving an old vehicle and using a flip phone I get it. All this new school talk means nothing if they can't afford it due to limited dollars. But for the rest of the riders out there, enjoying state of the art parts in every aspect of their life, get a new freakin bike, they're better, just like new cars, phones, rechargeable drills, zoodlers, lap tops, running shoes, seemingly everything but a sledge hammer. eetz tru.

DT
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I bought a new fangled sledge hammer that has some kind of new geometry and state of the art handle material, I’ll never go back. :)
 
#95 ·
Now riding a '17 Flux, used to ride a '04 Burner. The Flux weighs 27.1 pounds and climbs like a goat. Just looked at the new Yeti and for $10,200 their top of the line still weighs 1/3 pound more than my Flux.
 
#96 ·
In the last decade or so the mountain bike industry didn't just go thru a geometry revolution, but a world wide trail design/building revolution(the A-Line influence) At the same time there has been a rise to prominence of flat pedals and grippy shoes, plus the regular use of more protective gear and all this lead to greater loads on mountain bikes, with much more frequent and much higher loads. Then we start compounding the loads on the frame with the longer slacker front ends slapping the ground 10/20/30 more times per descent (than 2012) because of all the air time opportunities and a new bike SHOULD be heavier than something that was designed in a completely different era. Of course there are a lot more places on a new mtb where the weight can be added, not just stronger frame construction, but nowadays a single model of tire can have multiple casing specs, and depending on the choice can easily add a pound per bike. 4 piston brakes over 2, longer and longer dropper post and on and on. A tremendous amount of the performance gains in the last decade for 'trail bikes' has come with a weight penalty, but inarguably an increase in strength and performance in almost every product. Don't like the super steep STA? Get an offset dropper post, that will make even the oldest pedalers feel right over the pedals. Don't like the super long front centers? Down size the frame and upsize the seat post length. Don't wanna ride a heavy trail bike? Shorten the travel to a downcountry design, if you are that worried about weight, then you probably don't need that much travel either. In the end the bike will still be better designed for todays flowy trails, and most importantly, a lot tougher.
 
#97 ·
I remember watching the Olympics last year with the significant drop on the course and thinking how are these xc bikes tolerating this type of pounding? There are probably multiple factors but surely the frames have gained a little weight from careful strengthening...
 
#98 · (Edited)
turnerbikes said:
In the last decade or so the mountain bike industry didn't just go thru a geometry revolution, but a world wide trail design/building revolution(the A-Line influence) At the same time there has been a rise to prominence of flat pedals and grippy shoes, plus the regular use of more protective gear and all this lead to greater loads on mountain bikes, with much more frequent and much higher loads. Then we start compounding the loads on the frame with the longer slacker front ends slapping the ground 10/20/30 more times per descent (than 2012) because of all the air time opportunities and a new bike SHOULD be heavier than something that was designed in a completely different era. Of course there are a lot more places on a new mtb where the weight can be added, not just stronger frame construction, but nowadays a single model of tire can have multiple casing specs, and depending on the choice can easily add a pound per bike. 4 piston brakes over 2, longer and longer dropper post and on and on. A tremendous amount of the performance gains in the last decade for 'trail bikes' has come with a weight penalty, but inarguably an increase in strength and performance in almost every product. Don't like the super steep STA? Get an offset dropper post, that will make even the oldest pedalers feel right over the pedals. Don't like the super long front centers? Down size the frame and upsize the seat post length. Don't wanna ride a heavy trail bike? Shorten the travel to a downcountry design, if you are that worried about weight, then you probably don't need that much travel either. In the end the bike will still be better designed for todays flowy trails, and most importantly, a lot tougher.
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Hey what's your thoughts on the reach/sizing these days? I've lost count as to how many legit pro riders, riding heinous stuff just for speed are...downsizing. There is an old Lee McCormack (leeLikebikes) forumula that says (height in cm) * 2.55 (or 2.5) = estimated reach. Lee doesn't use that measurement anymore and has very specific ones based off of your deadlift distance amongst other things. Deadlift distance (he calls it RAD) is your height from knuckles to the floor (when arms are at the sides, hands in a fist and knuckles pointing down)...like you are doing a deadlift or getting full dynamic extension/barhump on a proper American bunny hop. He then talks about how to get that on to your bike by adjust frame stem, frame and handlebar size. Its intriguing as it goes far beyond "you're X height so you ride X bike size".

Regardless, when I run the numbers for some of these pro riders or heck even their play bikes (See Remy Mortons new 24/26 mullet lol), and lo and behold that height*2.5= reach calculation is pretty damn close to what they pick! However, most bikes sizing guides and marketing sites seem to be ALL ABOUT getting riders onto massive reaches/FC's. I'm not expert enough to have a strong opinion, but its been interesting to watch. I've also seen Pivot/Chris Cocalis's comments on that they don't want to build such long FC bikes but the market pushes them to keep getting longer. Also saw Enduro-Mag run a test a year or so ago when they ran their regular-joe editors on the Pros actual bikes on an EWS course and the not-super-long bikes were faster and more fun (in their bro-science and timed laps)

My guess is that we are now in the age of geometry where you pick it for preference (comfort vs agility and speed) rather than bad-geo vs good...tho the marketing seems to not articulate that at all. It'll be interesting to see where marketing/new bikes go from here. Heck Norco's Sight trail bike is already damn long and with a 63.5 HTA...like what's next for a bike like that besides a motor?? Fwiw I'm positive new bikes are better than bikes from 10yrs ago...but I wonder if they are better from bikes from 2018-2019 tho.
 
#99 ·
Hey Svin, interesting info from Lee and it falls right in line with the Enduro-Mag article.

The last couple of years I have said repeatedly that mtb geometry has 'hit the wall' or 'jumped the shark'. Bikes cannot get any longer or slacker, and the Enduro-Mag article about the down sizing pros supports that. I do think that most quality mountain bikes on the market are pretty close though, and for just about everyone, it's better to be a little too long, than too short of a bike. I know that over the next couple of tooling cycles, most companies will adjust their geometry in smaller and smaller increments (with louder and louder marketing claims) based on feed back from in-house staff, pro/influencers and paying customers.

Something that is awesome about todays mountain bikes is the 'lower' part. Much Much lower top tubes and shrinking seat tube lengths, combined with the longer dropper posts allows riders to choose the smaller frame in the lineup. Yes in some cases a rider can step up to a larger size frame, and combined with a P-Dent bar/stem have the advantages of a super long Reach and not be too stretched out. Good times.

Like many, I like a little more stability for the rough sections, but I KNOW I really need to take a class from Lee to up my cornering game! None of us will ever get better watching videos of pros, or shaky GoPro coverage of the dork in front of us. In order to really use all these mountain bike industry advancements, we need to take a class.

DT
 
#100 · (Edited)
turnerbikes said:
Like many, I like a little more stability for the rough sections, but I KNOW I really need to take a class from Lee to up my cornering game! None of us will ever get better watching videos of pros, or shaky GoPro coverage of the dork in front of us. In order to really use all these mountain bike industry advancements, we need to take a class.

DT
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You bring up a good point on coaching! Thanks for the thoughts on sizing. Always interesting to hear from the pros.

Side note. Have you ever considered doing a kids line? That market is blowing up a bit. Everything is freaking sold out and hardly ANYONE makes a decent one from a LBS aside from Norco and Rocky Mountain. Even theirs are still goofy (rocky).

Nukeproof kills it in the hardtail market (nice geo and the ultra nice custom tuned Manitou JUnit forks) (can't buy in USA mostly and out of stock quick)
nukeproof.com

Nukeproof Cub Scout 20 2021

The Cub-Scout 20” is not just another kids bike: taking inspiration from our award-winning Scout adult hardtail range, the Cub-Scout 20” has been designed from the ground-up as a proper mini-hardtail mountain bike. It has been designed to allow kids to learn the ropes of riding, inspire...
nukeproof.com nukeproof.com

Commencal makes very nice geo FS bikes with the Manitou setup but the wheels and some of the other specs are heavy (along with their frame).

COMMENCAL : Bike, Frames, Parts, Textile, Outlet, Second Hand...

COMMENCAL
www.commencalusa.com www.commencalusa.com

The convertible style bikes are dumb but solid geo hardtails or FS with manitou/hayes/protaper kids line is in demand. I wouldn't spend big money on a bike with out at least a JUnit fork, its just vastly nicer than anything else. More like a Fox 32 performance series but with a custom tuned spring/damper for 60lbs kid. Amazing stuff.
 
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