[Gman086]

Have you ever ridden one??? Graphs mean NOTHING in the grand scheme of things and can be manipulated any way you want based on data manipulation. Who's to say they are even correct? Near as I can tell you got them from that dude from Russia's posts which have proven to be pretty much useless from my personal experience. If what you preach is truth then all of these bikes would ride similarly. THEY DON'T. A TRUE 4 bar design like Specialized uses needs a climb switch - at least every single one I've ever ridden has so... what is the purpose of your post???

Have FUN!

G MAN

 

[Carl Mega]

Who's to say they are even correct? Near as I can tell you got them from that dude from Russia's posts which have proven to be pretty much useless

I cringe everytime I see linkageblogpsot or whatever's graphs anymore. I really wish people would stop posting them. A ways back, that guy helped open up the general public's conversation. That was a good thing. But we've outgrown freeware graphs using measurements from stock photos.

As far as I'm willing to wade into the rest of this conversation... A while ago, I used to be meh towards signature suspension designers like Weagle... but I've grown to appreciate them. There are a reason people pay for and license their work. As a consumer, I think it brings some predictability into the equation. Test ride and ownership trumps everything...but if I select a DW or Canfield bike, I feel like I there's a baseline and track record I can consider. DW bikes feel like DW bikes and Chris's bikes feel like Chris' bikes - and if you consider their body of work and what they espouse, there's some expectation you can have about what you are buying. Nothing's a sure shot and not all their products feel the same but I'd say all of them have their professionalism and personal touches.

 

[eicca]

In my original post, I pointed out that chainstays have an effect on climbing, as they affect the balance point on the bike. I also addressed Eicca's incorrect post which I have quoted above again: i.e. 100% antisquat does not mean "that pedaling forces have no impact on traction and deep compressions don't make the bike stall." You then complained that my post regarding the high level of kickback associated with the tradeoffs that Canfield chooses was incorrect because it was their most "trail oriented" bike (ignoring it shows the both a Canfield and Revel, both Canfield designs) and implied that your Balance doesn't have high kickback. When I posted the actual kinematics of the Balance, you then abandon that line of arguement and took the new position that the high level of kickback "is also very well calculated".

What you have never addressed is the original issue: What is different about the CBF than any other four bar? The answer is nothing, it is just another variation of a four bar with some fancy marketing. If you would like to present some evidence that demonstrates that CBF has repealed the laws of physics and their design somehow avoids the direct tradeoffs of antisquat/brake jack/pedal kickback, I (and I am sure others) would love to see it as they will have found the holy grail. At this point all we have is you claiming "this suspension is superior" and eicca who lacks even the basic understanding of antisquat and compression dampening, claiming he is suspension tuner.

It’s evident that you have no idea what you’re talking about, and I doubt you even ride bikes if you seriously think all “four-bars” are the same.The very fact that Revel decided to bank an entire company’s success on “just another four-bar” should tell you something. Never mind the reviews of any halfway-discerning rider that ever sets butt on a CBF bike. The difference with CBF is quite noticeable, drastic even, and if you‘d actually ride bikes, you’d know.

No suspension type will ever fit everyone’s preference but they are unquestionably NOT just minor variations on the same general concept.

You might want to read more than just motorcycle manuals if you don’t want to embarrass yourself further. Maybe work for an actual shop and get trained by actual mechanics.

 

[Cary]

It’s evident that you have no idea what you’re talking about, and I doubt you even ride bikes if you seriously think all “four-bars” are the same.The very fact that Revel decided to bank an entire company’s success on “just another four-bar” should tell you something. Never mind the reviews of any halfway-discerning rider that ever sets butt on a CBF bike. The difference with CBF is quite noticeable, drastic even, and if you‘d actually ride bikes, you’d know.

No suspension type will ever fit everyone’s preference but they are unquestionably NOT just minor variations on the same general concept.
Never
You might want to read more than just motorcycle manuals if you don’t want to embarrass yourself further. Maybe work for an actual shop and get trained by actual mechanics.

Yep, you figured it out, never ridden a bike, never worked for a shop, and all shop mechanics go to trade school and learn kinematic design and fluid dynamics. Never even seen a canfield, unless you count the Balance and Jedi I perviously purchased, or maybe the one hanging in the garage right now. Jedi was a great plow bike, the balance climbed for crap.

Since you have so much knowledge, perhaps you could share the bike specific engineering books you have relied upon to gain that knowledge. You are quick to disregard information sources I have provided as worthless, it would be great to know which you rely upon so we can educate ourselves. While you are at it, perhaps you could provide the dyno curves, or even just your calculations from shim stacker that demonstrate the changes your “tuning” has made for your “customers”.

 

[Cerberus75]

Canfield is as much a 4 bar as DW link is, since CBF is a dual link design. The kickback is only noticeable on a graph unless you try and ride with a 26t chainring, than you might feel a bit. It is much less than DW link or Evil's suspension.

 

[eicca]

Yep, you figured it out, never ridden a bike, never worked for a shop, and all shop mechanics go to trade school and learn kinematic design and fluid dynamics. Never even seen a canfield, unless you count the Balance and Jedi I perviously purchased, or maybe the one hanging in the garage right now. Jedi was a great plow bike, the balance climbed for crap.

Since you have so much knowledge, perhaps you could share the bike specific engineering books you have relied upon to gain that knowledge. You are quick to disregard information sources I have provided as worthless, it would be great to know which you rely upon so we can educate ourselves. While you are at it, perhaps you could provide the dyno curves, or even just your calculations from shim stacker that demonstrate the changes your “tuning” has made for your “customers”.

Real world feedback, that’s what. Cold hard experience.

 

[Dougal]

Test ride and ownership trumps everything.

That bit above in bold. That's a complete joke.

Ownership and test riding are the most subjective and biased ways to rate anything. Completely useless.

Anyone who thinks zero compression damping is the goal is best ignored. Zero compression damping gives you wallow, dive, zero trail feel, terrible bump control and requires massive compromises in spring and rebound damper setup.

 

[Carl Mega]

That bit above in bold. That's a complete joke.

Ownership and test riding are the most subjective and biased ways to rate anything. Completely useless.

Sure, I get your point but you missed mine. First, you cannot capture a complete riding experience in a graph. It's too dynamic. Nor can you say, this design will yield this result by name or design only. And being a tuner yourself, you know this - it takes time with the rider and the equipment to yield the potential out of the overall system. That's ownership. i really hope you are not trying to make an argument that claims the rider isn't part of the system. It is the most important part.

And in the end, my satisfaction is the only thing that matters. You could show me the graphs and try to forecast what I'll enjoy riding...but I know me better than anyone else. I have an open mind, & I'm not deciding anything until I put it to use int he real work. And if you are gathering data to make a fact based determination, give me my actual telemetry and metrics. If I like riding/better on bike A more than bike B. I'm going with how I evaluated the quality of my experience over anything else. That was my point. Applied in the real world with actual results, data and experience.

 

[eicca]

Anyone who thinks zero compression damping is the goal is best ignored. Zero compression damping gives you wallow, dive, zero trail feel, terrible bump control and requires massive compromises in spring and rebound damper setup.

Guess Chris Canfield has no idea what he’s talking about then.

 

[Dougal]

Guess Chris Canfield has no idea what he’s talking about then.

I've never met the guy. But if he claims compression damping isn't needed then yes.

 

[eicca]

I've never met the guy. But if he claims compression damping isn't needed then yes.

except no because I ride his bike and it works beautifully without it, better than any other bike I’ve been on,

 

[Dougal]

Sure, I get your point but you missed mine. First, you cannot capture a complete riding experience in a graph. It's too dynamic. Nor can you say, this design will yield this result by name or design only. And being a tuner yourself, you know this - it takes time with the rider and the equipment to yield the potential out of the overall system. That's ownership. i really hope you are not trying to make an argument that claims the rider isn't part of the system. It is the most important part.

No-one here is comparing the complete riding experience. For me the biggest factors there are quality of riding buddies, trail conditions and weather. But that's not what this forum is for.

Here we are comparing suspension designs. Ownership and test riding are almost completely useless in that regard. It comes down to the geometry and the execution.
Geometry is the linkage design. That's it. Execution is how well the bike is designed and built.

Bad designs (or good designs hampered by bad shocks) take a long time to dial in. Good designs respond exactly as they should and dial in very easily.

except no because I ride his bike and it works beautifully without it, better than any other bike I’ve been on,

Cool story.
Your bike doesn't have zero compression damping.

 

[Carl Mega]

Here we are comparing suspension designs. Ownership and test riding are almost completely useless in that regard. It comes down to the geometry and the execution.
Geometry is the linkage design. That's it. Execution is how well the bike is designed and built.

This thread has drifted so long ago, I'm honestly not sure what it's about anymore.

I'll summarize my view: Lots of designs can work. Just as with tuners, certain designers seem to be able to make a routinely better product than others. What one designer does may not cater to you or the way you ride. It is best to evaluate each product in person as it will probably determine your satisfaction.

Since it is a compare and "rating" I'll add my opinion: Without question, I've ridden more short link bikes that work well for me than any horst and single pivots. So back to the OP's title, DW & VPP & SI all have a body of implementations working very, very well and all seem to have been applied across genres and received strong reception. Personally, I'd need to test the individual bike as the merits of those designs are not the determining factor.

 

[Cary]

This thread has drifted so long ago, I'm honestly not sure what it's about anymore.

I'll summarize my view: Lots of designs can work. Just as with tuners, certain designers seem to be able to make a routinely better product than others. What one designer does may not cater to you or the way you ride. It is best to evaluate each product in person as it will probably determine your satisfaction.

You sum it up extremely well.

 

[aerius]

Anyone who thinks zero compression damping is the goal is best ignored. Zero compression damping gives you wallow, dive, zero trail feel, terrible bump control and requires massive compromises in spring and rebound damper setup.

We went through this already with 1990s Marzocchi Bombers. 150lbs riders had to run firm or x-firm springs to avoid blowing through all their travel and often got bucked off their bikes on bigger landings unless they had the rebound cranked all the way in, which made it unrideable on higher frequency hits.

 

[Suns_PSD]

This thread became quite entertaining.

Sent from my KYOCERA-E6920 using Tapatalk

 

[inonjoey]

except no because I ride his bike and it works beautifully without it, better than any other bike I’ve been on,

I’m not saying you’re wrong, but it would be much easier to take your views seriously without statements like these coupled with your profile pic. You like CBF. Cool.

This was an interesting thread, not anymore.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Danzzz88]

I want to chime in here regarding the no compression damping talk... Ok so I have often found some bikes harsh due to what feels like too much compression damping...I revalved the dhx5 on my sb6 just to get rid of it and I liked it. I now have an sb165 and an 11/6 shock, and again I still wasn't overwhelmed by it's plushness so decided to drop spring weight and dial compression right to the lowest setting and I much prefer it. I also pondered why we need compression damping on bikes with good antisquat, stiff enough spring and good pedal manners...why can't we just have rebound damping you may ponder? Why can't we have it just compress the spring with no resistance then use rebound damping to return the energy slowly, seems logical doesn't it? Well I will tell you why, suspension is a lot more complex than that, changing one variable has a knock on affect on another. Regarding the guys comment above about just using spring weight and how he could have it pedal great and have the same sag with various spring weights is nonsense... You can't have the same sag with different spring weights regardless of damping unless you start adding preload to the softer springs, soon as you start dialling in loads of preload the shock is going to feel like crap on small bumps...so that's out the way.
Now onto the more complex matter of damping, dampers don't just resist chassis movement but they also 'damp' the forces, in other words take energy away...some compression damping is desirable because it is actually absorbing some of the energy and turning it into heat. Secondly no compression damping and only spring is a terrible idea because then you will get packing, you would have your rebound slow but your spring is compressing further and further into the travel on each successive hit much more so than with damping.. you will compress the spring say one inch but it will only return half an inch or less before it hits the next bump due to the rebound damping...do this in succession and you get packing, the shock is packing down more and more deeper into the harsher portion of the bikes travel leaving less travel available each hit. If you tried to mitigate this by running a very stiff spring you would have so little sag that your traction would be utter rubbish when going over potholes etc, you would have no negative travel and probably a much harsher ride too. Additionally dampers and springs are not working with speed in the same way, springs are force dependent, dampers are speed dependent...to have sufficient bottom out support with no damper you would need a very stiff spring and that would feel like crap also, dampers are speed sensitive, the faster the shaft moves the more it increases resistance, so on very large hits that would bottom out a damper-less shock the damped shock increase resistance due to the high shaft velocity quickly slowing things down without feeling as damped under smaller hits and less high velocity impacts. Damping settings can tune this to be optimum as can the new influx of hbc dampers. Now I agree a lot of shocks etc come overdamped for my liking, even the PUSH, everyone likes that couch like feel but as stated the main function of suspension is grip, traction and some element of shock absorption, it's not to make you feel like you are on a cloud. Firmer suspension actually generates more grip, hence why pro riders like their suspension super stiff, not only for pedal efficiency but for grip. Of course no suspension is also bad aka hardtail, but there is a balance to be had, stiffer suspension provides more to push against in a given instant, if you know physics every action has an equal and opposite reaction, the result is stiffer suspension up to a point means you can load the tyres more for better grip. I admit I'm a sucker for that couch like magic carpet feel, but I'm not a pro racer, when you are going a stupid fast pace on a dh course you can't have your suspension soft as if you set it up to feel nothing going over a curb at 5mph, what works at low speeds doesn't work so well at high speeds. So in response to the guy that likes no damping, just sounds to me like you need to ride faster XD. Anyway hope that has helped a few understand the importance of damping whether it be to a small degree or a lot.

 

[kapusta]

Holy Wall of Text!

 

[Cerberus75]

This thread has drifted so long ago, I'm honestly not sure what it's about anymore.

I'll summarize my view: Lots of designs can work. Just as with tuners, certain designers seem to be able to make a routinely better product than others. What one designer does may not cater to you or the way you ride. It is best to evaluate each product in person as it will probably determine your satisfaction.

Since it is a compare and "rating" I'll add my opinion: Without question, I've ridden more short link bikes that work well for me than any horst and single pivots. So back to the OP's title, DW & VPP & SI all have a body of implementations working very, very well and all seem to have been applied across genres and received strong reception. Personally, I'd need to test the individual bike as the merits of those designs are not the determining factor.

Forbidden's high pivot is really nice too.