Adding the RSD Middlechild as an option. With so many things to consider I put this chart together to compare.

Frame Options
Brand	Model	Size	HT Angle	ST Angle	Reach	Fork Travel	Price	Material
Trek	2019 Roscoe 8	M/L	68.3​	71​	422​	120/130	Owned	Aluminum
Santa Cruz	Chameleon	Large	65​	74.4​	465​	130/140	$1,049	Aluminum
Canfield	Nible 9	Large	66​	77​	475​	140-160	$ 899	Steel
Nukeproof	Scout	Large	65​	73​	450​	130/140	$ 499	Aluminum
RSD	Middlechild	Large	64.5​	74​	465​	130-150	$ 849	Steel
Chromag	Rootdown	M/L	64​	76​	463​	150-170	$ 879	Steel
Kona	Honzo ST	Large	66​	76​	475​	140	$ 699	Steel
Banshee	Paradox	Large	65​	76.25​	474​	120-150	$1149	Aluminum
Ragley	Big Wig	Large	65​	74​	460​	140	$662	Steel
Salsa	Timberjack	Large	64.4​	75.1​	475.5​	100-150	$749	Aluminum
Esker	Japhy	S3	66​	76​	470​	120	$1000	Steel
Trek	2023 Roscoe	Large	65​	73.1​	470​	140-150	$749	Aluminum
Ibis	Ripmo AF	Large	64.9​	76​	475​	160	Owned	Aluminum

 

/QUOTE]
Merida Big trail 700 , Focus Raven 8.8 , Mondraker Chrono DC R.

 

Banshee Paradox, Salsa Timberjack, Ragley Big AL, Rocky Mountain Growler, Easker Japhy....

Lots out there to pick from. Hopefully you can demo something, so you know what you are getting into. Don't under-estimate a good all-around HT like a Surly Karate Monkey (can be 27.5 or 29). It may only be a degree slacker than your current bike, but it can handle chunk just fine and definitely will handle your milder trails with ease.

 

Don't under-estimate a good all-around HT like a Surly Karate Monkey (can be 27.5 or 29). It may only be a degree slacker than your current bike, but it can handle chunk just fine and definitely will handle your milder trails with ease.

The KM is already a "compact" bike. For the appropriate size frame to fit, you might need a longer than is trendy stem, but don't wrote it off just for that.

A 140mm fork on a KM gets kind of ridiculous because the BB is so friggin high. 120 worked quite well for me, but a 100mm fork might have been better. An angle-adjusting headset can lengthen the wheelbase to stabilize an otherwise squirrelly bike, but the cockpit is still quite cramped.

 

I'm also in SC but in the center of the state on Lake Murray. The majority of my riding is fast, flow trails although we spend a fair amount of time in WNC so I get to ride Pisgah and Dupont fairly regularly and have done so on HT and FS.

I took a hiatus from riding during COVID to focus on some motorcycle projects but am finishing a build now so that I can start riding again. My last bike was the last gen Chameleon that I loved, was perfect for where I ride and I hate I sold it. I've also had a few Nimble 9's (not current gen) and Yeli Screamy's (not current gen), a couple of different Honzo STs as well as a Honzo CR and a SolarisMAX.

Noting the trails I ride, a ST angle of around 74 is ideal for me. Steeper than 75 and it's just not as comfortable for me on the flats that I have to endure so that eliminated the N9 and Paradox. I was looking for a 130-140mm frame as anything more is overkill for me. Most of the frames on your list (minus the Rootdown) above were on my list as well as a Paradox, Sonder Signal ST, Sour Crumble, Fuse, Stanton Sherpa, Ragley Big Al and a couple of others.

This is going to be my only bike for the time being and I ended up with a new gen Roscoe interesting enough as it checked a few boxes for me. It was a toss up between it and the Sour Crumble and if that was easier to get in a timely fashion, I may have gone that direction as the 66 HTA designed for 130mm is almost squarely bullseye for me. We'll see how I make out with the Roscoe but it will have a build that I would gladly transfer to another frame without reservation should I go a different direction.

IF I were you and adding a HT to the stable to compliment your Ripmo (owned a number of Ripley's and loved them), I would go with something a bit different than your Ripmo so I would eliminate the N9 and Rootdown from the list. If you can handle the color, the current Honzo ST may be an option for you -- Sundrift in Travelers Rest is a solid Kona dealer. Or some of the other frames I mentioned.

Good luck with this adventure!

 

I hate that so many companies don't tell you the actual fork length on which they designed their geometry charts! A bike with a 68° head tube angle when sagged could be nore like 66° (spitballing) at full length. Before you go comparing geometries in black and white, ask the manufacturer to clarify.

 

Following. Would be interested if anyone has had time on the Commencal Meta HT AM as well.

 

Would the Ibis DV9 frame be in budget? There is also bikes like the Cotic Solaris & Stanton Swtich9er(or Sherpa if you want two bottles in the triangle) are worth a look too.

 

Been on a KONA ST for just shy of a year now. Love the bike, 140mm DVO fork and a -1* WolfTooth headset. 210mm OneUp dropper. Its a large so that helps with the dropper length. I am also 215 geared up so the bike feels compliant to me. Lighter riders maybe not so much.

 

Kona Honzo ST. Love mine.

 

I will shoot from the hip and personal experience through the "personal anecdote".

I had the "mild trail HT" (I think Roscoe 27.5 is there), the bit better trail HT (Trek Stache 29+ & older Salsa Timberjack), the aggressive trail HT (Norco Torrent HT), then jumped to the FS and...decided than for the gnar the aggressive + long travel HTs are "not balanced enough" - at least for my skill and style - and there is no comparison vs. a FS for tech. That's me.

So, having two "Similar" 150mm forked bikes was overkill and kinda boring for the green trails around me that I was riding straight from home, thus I sold the Torrent HT and I've replaced it with the "extreme rigid MTB" of mine, i.e. a relatively affortable alloy gravel bike (21 Trek Checkpoint ALR). I got spoiled by the zippy steering (scary @ the beginning), the responsive chassis, the nimble climbing. The MTBs were "boats" now...yeah, I miss my HTs a bit, but ...don't think I would ever go back to a 150mm Torrent or Meta HT: especially the latter that I think has worse balance on a 140-150 fork vs. a Torrent or ESD. No, no...these HTs are too much.

I also got spoiled with other, silly things on my gravel bike, like room for 2+ large water bottles in the frame...sure, there are hydration vests and waist packs...I had both for riding in SoCal. But so much easier and cooler to have it in the frame...

Is a gravel bike for everyone? No...but...after experimenting with SS on a "transitional" frame that also had 2 bottles and worked fine with a 120mm fork, the selection was getting shorter:

• Modern-ish geo, (~470 reach for a "L" or equiv.) but not needlessly aggressive HTA. 66deg is fine. 67 is OK.
• 29er with 120-130mm fork tops.
• Light weight. Not crazy, but at least "try"...that cheap gravel bike is like 21lbs even with lots of accessories on and spoiled me.
• Two water bottles would be nice
• Sliding dropouts for SS is nice. SS is a trip

Dream (in my mind) senario would be a build-to-order frame, something like a Neuhaus Metalworks Hummingbird.This is a bit $alty and would be my "3rd" bike anyways.
Specialized Fuse and the new Salsa Timberjack check most of the above, if you don't strain the weight much.
Specialized Chisel and the Marin Team are pretty nice if you want something more zippy than the two above, but still pretty solid XC/Trail bikes. No sliding dropouts but you can still use a tensioner for SS if you really want to. Or a eccentric BB ? I don't know.
Honzo DL is "close" with familiar geo and sliding dropouts but bit heavier, one bottle. Honzo ST is not out of the question but...not convinced that the SIR moto goes for me.
New Chameleon is pretty nice, but...I think the TJ and the Fuse will be better with a shorter travel fork and have 2 bottles inside the triangle, salsa does 3x if you put one on the outside of the DT (the way the Chameleon can do 2x also). The yellow color on the (21?) Cham is "fiiiiire".

 

I will shoot from the hip and personal experience through the "personal anecdote".

I had the "mild trail HT" (I think Roscoe 27.5 is there), the bit better trail HT (Trek Stache 29+ & older Salsa Timberjack), the aggressive trail HT (Norco Torrent HT), then jumped to the FS and...decided than for the gnar the aggressive + long travel HTs are "not balanced enough" - at least for my skill and style - and there is no comparison vs. a FS for tech. That's me.

So, having two "Similar" 150mm forked bikes was overkill and kinda boring for the green trails around me that I was riding straight from home, thus I sold the Torrent HT and I've replaced it with the "extreme rigid MTB" of mine, i.e. a relatively affortable alloy gravel bike (21 Trek Checkpoint ALR). I got spoiled by the zippy steering (scary @ the beginning), the responsive chassis, the nimble climbing. The MTBs were "boats" now...yeah, I miss my HTs a bit, but ...don't think I would ever go back to a 150mm Torrent or Meta HT: especially the latter that I think has worse balance on a 140-150 fork vs. a Torrent or ESD. No, no...these HTs are too much.

I also got spoiled with other, silly things on my gravel bike, like room for 2+ large water bottles in the frame...sure, there are hydration vests and waist packs...I had both for riding in SoCal. But so much easier and cooler to have it in the frame...

Is a gravel bike for everyone? No...but...after experimenting with SS on a "transitional" frame that also had 2 bottles and worked fine with a 120mm fork, the selection was getting shorter:

• Modern-ish geo, (~470 reach for a "L" or equiv.) but not needlessly aggressive HTA. 66deg is fine. 67 is OK.
• 29er with 120-130mm fork tops.
• Light weight. Not crazy, but at least "try"...that cheap gravel bike is like 21lbs even with lots of accessories on and spoiled me.
• Two water bottles would be nice
• Sliding dropouts for SS is nice. SS is a trip

Dream (in my mind) senario would be a build-to-order frame, something like a Neuhaus Metalworks Hummingbird.This is a bit $alty and would be my "3rd" bike anyways.
Specialized Fuse and the new Salsa Timberjack check most of the above, if you don't strain the weight much.
Specialized Chisel and the Marin Team are pretty nice if you want something more zippy than the two above, but still pretty solid XC/Trail bikes. No sliding dropouts but you can still use a tensioner for SS if you really want to. Or a eccentric BB ? I don't know.
Honzo DL is "close" with familiar geo and sliding dropouts but bit heavier, one bottle. Honzo ST is not out of the question but...not convinced that the SIR moto goes for me.
New Chameleon is pretty nice, but...I think the TJ and the Fuse will be better with a shorter travel fork and have 2 bottles inside the triangle, salsa does 3x if you put one on the outside of the DT (the way the Chameleon can do 2x also). The yellow color on the (21?) Cham is "fiiiiire".

I have a Neuhaus Metalworks Hummingbird coming later this month. Can't wait. Perfect kind of hardtail for my local trails. Current HT is a Ritchey Ultra I built up with a lot of Team Marin 2 parts after that frame had warranty issues that took to long to get replaced. 120/130 HT perfect compliment in my opinion to a FS.

 

Honzo DL/ Honzo ST could be the ones.
Love my Honzo CR but that’s discontinued. Very adaptable bikes and sliding drops on those let you play with some of the handling a bit

 

You’re on the right track. Haven’t ridden the Paradox but steel was the ticket for me. I have a Rootdown and Kona ESD. They’re both great.

Watch BB drop/height as pedaling over East Coast chunk requires some extra room. I run 165s cranks on both and I lifted the ESD with longer fork and used angle set to manage the HTA.

 

You’re on the right track. Haven’t ridden the Paradox but steel was the ticket for me. I have a Rootdown and Kona ESD. They’re both great.

Watch BB drop/height as pedaling over East Coast chunk requires some extra room. I run 165s cranks on both and I lifted the ESD with longer fork and used angle set to manage the HTA.

I am definitely leaning towards steel, but I need to get out and try one. I am not a weight watcher if the weight improves the ride or durability.

I noticed the effects of a low BB when I got my Ripmo. I was getting pedal strikes everywhere. I lowered the sag a bit and swapped from 175 to 165 cranks and it is much better.

 

I updated the chart with some of your suggestions. I really appreciate the input! The Kona Honzo ST & RSD Middle child have my eye right now and I would run them with my 130mm Yari fork and 29". I could always swap out the air spring to bump up travel but I want to keep this thing playful on the mild stuff. RSD did just receive a shipment of frames.....

JasonScottCarter- that Hummingbird is awesome but it's a little more than I am looking for right now.

 

Then check out the Esker Japhy....its a great bike also and same style of bike. Cheaper on the wallet as well.

 

I've been eyeing the Knolly Tyaughton - GREAT deal right now on a NX build its like some companies frame only or frame+fork price for a decent spec that can easily be upgraded (I am not affiliated - just should have it on the list as its right in the spot for what you are already looking at as well).
Steel, good modern geo, etc... looks like a chromag and very similar it would seem. the only negative for some might be the 157 rear end, but my Arktos full sus is actually 157 so for me personally if I went Knolly - it could mean wheel sets are compatible etc... I miss my NS Eccentric Cromo as n+1 and regret selling it 2 yrs back - so looking for something to compliment my Arktos. A good steel HT is hard to beat for a lot of riding

 

If I were buying a ht right now I'd probably buy an On One Big Dog. Steel, and only $1650 for the GX build.

 

I'm just to the south of you in the Columbia area. I've been on a RSD Middlechild aluminum frame for a little over a year now. With a Bomber Z2 140mm fork, it is just about perfect for the trails I've ridden all around SC. I'm able to swap wheelsets between 27.5 & 29...and do so according to what I feel like riding at the time. 29 for some good speed, or plus wheels for more chill rides

 

If you come up to the upstate to ride let me know. I frequent Dupont, Pisgah, Pleasant Ridge, Paris and occasional park days. Kanuga and Rock Creek bike parks are awesome and worth the drive.

 

Update- I test rode a 2023 Roscoe 8 last week and it felt good in a quick parking lot ride. With Trek's sale through this month, it is $2k+tax (400 off). I am still comparing my options, but I put a deposit down on a complete bike size L they had it in stock.

The Roscoe 8 still has an NX/GX drivetrain so I can swap over my GX shifter along with my Yari and some other odds and ends and sell my '19 Roscoe as a complete bike. All said and done it would be about $1,500 out of pocket for much better geometry, 29" wheels, 4 piston brakes, fast engagement hub, etc.

What do you think? Am I making a mistake not going with a steel frame? What shops would have a steel frame with modern Geometry available to demo? Not that I would be able to tell much in a parking lot, I have just never ridden a steel frame.

 

Im still stewing on one, but think I have it down to an RSD Middlechild, I plan to run it as a SS to start though. Will try and use cheaper components and set it up as something to play around on. Glad you found yours. Have fun with it.

 

When I started this thread I did not expect to buy another Trek but here we are. It checked most of the boxes and the price was right. I still have some parts to swap over but I am excited to get it out for a first ride tomorrow. The immediate differences I feel on pavement are space in the cockpit (422 vs 470 reach) and fast hub engagement.

 

Seaview- I appreciate the suggestions but those are a little too XC focused for me. We have some pretty steep terrain in my area.

 

I owned a Chameleon 7 and now own a Chameleon 8. Such great all around bikes. Both climb amazing, pedal like a hardtail, and descend like a champ. I have my 8 set up in mullet form and I can't describe how much I enjoy riding it. I love how punches up the climbs. Both the 7 and 8 provide a really forgiving ride too. These bikes don't beat you up like the hardtails of the old days. The new Chameleon just wants to be pushed. The harder you push this bike the better it handles. Some good deals to be had on them right now too.

 

Wow on the reach differences, just tell you now based on my experience unless have totally different stem lengths and even than gonna be hard to go back and forth between bikes. You wont want to really ride bikes with reach shorter than main bike often likely never. Lucky enough to have good bike stable and once I started with bikes that were 20-30m longer reach than used to slowly replaced everything to get in similar reach plus stem range.

 

I rode about 10 miles on the 2023 Roscoe 8 at Paris Mtn. in SC last week and so far I love it. Is is much more comfortable and stable for me than the 2019 was with the extra reach and better geo. I was having so much fun on the downhills I almost forgot I was on a hardtail. I would have had even more fun yesterday if the bearing on my crankbrothers pedal didnt explode 1 mile into the ride. I already swapped over the good parts from my old Roscoe with the exception of the Yari fork. The RL 35 that came on the 2023 is honestly not bad but it doesn't feel nearly as plush as the Yari. As soon as my 140 air spring arrives for the Yari ill swap it out.

I had one of my buddies swap bikes with me on the ride and he was surprised how smooth it rode for a hardtail and how well it cornered. He was coming from an XL Kona Process 153.

After swapping my old 2019 Roscoe back to OEM components it sold in 1 day on FB marketplace for $800. Can't complain with that!

Gone but not forgotten: 1/5/20- 3/26/23

 

The MC damper lacks plushness or small bump compliance. It works OK beyond that until you bump up the speed. Then it gets overwhelmed in repeating hits like rocky or rooty terrain.

 

I would submit that this is likely more of an issue on FS bikes where the speeds are high enough to reveal the damper shortcomings. I think it's less of an issue on hardtails where the speeds are typically a bit less.

 

eb1888
I agree on it getting overwhelmed a bit in roots and rock gardens which are common in NC & SC. The DVO on my Ripmo is more plush in small bumps. I am not sure if the MC damper is different between the Yari RC and 35 RL Gold but the Yari feels better. I have heard that the stanchions on the 35 are thicker so I would assume there is less internal volume for dampening and the air chamber. Long term I can always throw a better damper in the Yari as a nice upgrade.

 

eb1888
I agree on it getting overwhelmed a bit in roots and rock gardens which are common in NC & SC. The DVO on my Ripmo is more plush in small bumps. I am not sure if the MC damper is different between the Yari RC and 35 RL Gold but the Yari feels better. I have heard that the stanchions on the 35 are thicker so I would assume there is less internal volume for dampening and the air chamber. Long term I can always throw a better damper in the Yari as a nice upgrade.

Yeah, the 35 can't really be upgraded at all. The Yari is a much better platform for modding.

 

I’m toying with the idea of picking up a Roscoe 8 myself. I have a Ripley AF but would like a good ish hard tail. Sale price makes it look hard to beat