[eb1888]

I like focusing on my gear...sometimes I don't even think about it. But that comes after.
Carbon with compliance can be a bargain in a hardtail.
Why?
Say you got your first bike...a 29 aluminum hardtail, maybe 32 lbs.
You ride it all season and maybe the next, getting better as you go. Better trails with better rocks and roots and faster circuits.
You're riding more and having more fun on tougher trails.
Your bike setup gets upgraded down to 25-26 lbs. with a better lighter fork and wheels/tires. Carbon bars and seatpost.
But you notice as you want to ride more you are getting beat up by the end of your rides.
Sound like a common scenario?
This is where you save the big bucks.
Lots of riders think they have to go to a full suspension at this point just for the comfort...to keep riding.
And something fs at 25lbs is going to be a lot of dollars.
And if you don't need the extra squish for long fast downhill runs in mountain areas a carbon hardtail with good compliance along with all the other tricks will cost you $3k less and weigh 22lbs with way less maintenance.
But you do have to focus a little on your bike setup. At least at first.

 

[Daniel de la Garza]

I like focusing on my gear...sometimes I don't even think about it. But that comes after.
Carbon with compliance can be a bargain in a hardtail.
Why?
Say you got your first bike...a 29 aluminum hardtail, maybe 32 lbs.
You ride it all season and maybe the next, getting better as you go. Better trails with better rocks and roots and faster circuits.
You're riding more and having more fun on tougher trails.
Your bike setup gets upgraded down to 25-26 lbs. with a better lighter fork and wheels/tires. Carbon bars and seatpost.
But you notice as you want to ride more you are getting beat up by the end of your rides.
Sound like a common scenario?
This is where you save the big bucks.
Lots of riders think they have to go to a full suspension at this point just for the comfort...to keep riding.
And something fs at 25lbs is going to be a lot of dollars.
And if you don't need the extra squish for long fast downhill runs in mountain areas a carbon hardtail with good compliance along with all the other tricks will cost you $3k less and weigh 22lbs with way less maintenance.
But you do have to focus a little on your bike setup. At least at first.

I feel you bro, seriously gear is important but as you well said it. It comes after a season of trying your 32lb bike.

I mean I have AL and of course I will get carbon at some point, but that's gonna be the last expensive deal I'm gonna get. I would try the best fork, wheelset, drive train before considering the frame. It's like a canvas. Once you painted all then you get to try another one.

Cheers

 

[mountainbiker24]

I take your point, but in fairness you aren't helping the OP know if carbon is worth it, regardless of whether or not he they can afford it.

That said, we are following the MTBR formula - it's what we do best:

1. Newbie, OP question.
2. Opinion given.
3. Opposite opinion given.
4. 100 posts continue, supporting either #2, or #3. Sometimes saying an opinion is "wrong" (which is technically impossible, but whatever).

You can include an optional #5, where anger and insults begin, and a #6 where we never hear from the OP again.

You forgot the seventh step.

7. Smartass complains about a discussion about OP's question on a public forum.

 

[BuickGN]

I wonder if people who make comments like "only good for road bikes" or who otherwise disparage carbon have actually ridden a carbon frame bike back to back. Friends who are on aluminum frame bikes who I have try my bike immediately notice the difference. First comment is usually along the lines of "wow this is really stiff" then "wow I can really accelerate with his much better" to "wow I beat my PR up that *****y climb by 30 percent." Etc.

So by switching to a carbon frame with no other changes you think it will make you 30% quicker uphill? Lol. All of a sudden comments like it's only good for road bikes don't sound so crazy anymore.

When talking vibration damping it IS much more useful on road bikes. It's going to damp out the higher frequency vibrations better. On a mountain bike the tires take care of the higher frequencies and the suspension takes out the much lower frequencies. The only difference I can feel on a mountain bike between the two is a very slight difference in stiffness and that's on a hard tail. On a FS it's a very hard difference to feel, I know I couldn't feel a difference. I'm sure the carbon frame probably has a lower resonant frequency vs aluminum and that might or might not come into play but it's just not noticeable. I would like to see a poll of how many people have had noisy brakes on aluminum vs carbon frames. I'll give that to carbon, I bet they deal with less brake noise issues over aluminum frame bikes.

I was about to buy another car like the one I already have so I had $32k in cash when the seller backed out. I decided to get a mountain bike. Obviously money was not a factor in my decision to go aluminum. The main deciding factor was that I will crash and it will be more than once and when I do, I don't want the frame to be junk. Carbon at the same weight is stronger when used as intended. Hit it the wrong way, even letting the bike fall over and catch the frame just right on a rock and it's toast. Sure, aluminum can break too but it's far less likely to break in a crash or from falling over and carbon doesn't break every time you breathe on it wrong but it's more likely to break/crack for the reasons described.

The other factor was what do I get from carbon? The answer is nothing. I was going to get a FS already. It was going to have big tires at low pressure. The frame is very nice and stiff as is. There was almost no difference in the aluminum vs carbon weights. Aluminum was the logical answer.

And not to take it off topic but on a full suspension setup I don't want engineered in frame flex. Once it has suspension I want the suspension to do all of the work. Does anyone know for sure if a 5-6" travel carbon frame full suspension carbon mountain bike frame actually has much if any engineered in flex or is this just assumed because road bikes have it?

 

[SDMTB'er]

So by switching to a carbon frame with no other changes you think it will make you 30% quicker uphill? Lol. All of a sudden comments like it's only good for road bikes don't sound so crazy anymore.

When talking vibration damping it IS much more useful on road bikes. It's going to damp out the higher frequency vibrations better. On a mountain bike the tires take care of the higher frequencies and the suspension takes out the much lower frequencies. The only difference I can feel on a mountain bike between the two is a very slight difference in stiffness and that's on a hard tail. On a FS it's a very hard difference to feel, I know I couldn't feel a difference. I'm sure the carbon frame probably has a lower resonant frequency vs aluminum and that might or might not come into play but it's just not noticeable. I would like to see a poll of how many people have had noisy brakes on aluminum vs carbon frames. I'll give that to carbon, I bet they deal with less brake noise issues over aluminum frame bikes.

I was about to buy another car like the one I already have so I had $32k in cash when the seller backed out. I decided to get a mountain bike. Obviously money was not a factor in my decision to go aluminum. The main deciding factor was that I will crash and it will be more than once and when I do, I don't want the frame to be junk. Carbon at the same weight is stronger when used as intended. Hit it the wrong way, even letting the bike fall over and catch the frame just right on a rock and it's toast. Sure, aluminum can break too but it's far less likely to break in a crash or from falling over and carbon doesn't break every time you breathe on it wrong but it's more likely to break/crack for the reasons described.

The other factor was what do I get from carbon? The answer is nothing. I was going to get a FS already. It was going to have big tires at low pressure. The frame is very nice and stiff as is. There was almost no difference in the aluminum vs carbon weights. Aluminum was the logical answer.

And not to take it off topic but on a full suspension setup I don't want engineered in frame flex. Once it has suspension I want the suspension to do all of the work. Does anyone know for sure if a 5-6" travel carbon frame full suspension carbon mountain bike frame actually has much if any engineered in flex or is this just assumed because road bikes have it?

You just made my argument. Aluminum frame more flexy than carbon, weight for weight (same for wheels). Since you want all of the compliance to be achieved via the suspension, carbon is better by your own argument.

 

[SDMTB'er]

Here is another draw to carbon: frames just look better without all of the welds between the tubes.

 

[phlegm]

I take your point, but in fairness you aren't helping the OP know if carbon is worth it, regardless of whether or not he they can afford it.

That said, we are following the MTBR formula - it's what we do best:

1. Newbie, OP question.
2. Opinion given.
3. Opposite opinion given.
4. 100 posts continue, supporting either #2, or #3. Sometimes saying an opinion is "wrong" (which is technically impossible, but whatever).

You can include an optional #5, where anger and insults begin, and a #6 where we never hear from the OP again.

You forgot the seventh step.

7. Smartass complains about a discussion about OP's question on a public forum.

You just proved point #5.

 

[Fajita Dave]

Not to really throw this off course but.... Frame flex can be very important on a FS bike. Even though suspension is great; the valving, oil, air pressure and some stiction still makes suspension very unresponsive for most bumps you encounter on a trail. This is where the right tire setup and frame flex become important because they absorb impacts instantly without the wonky crap involved with suspension. Being able to engineer a specific type and amount of flex into a carbon frame can maximize your FS bike's potential.

Just to prove a point, go ahead and max out the PSI in your tires. Drop the pressure in your FS bike suspension to make it suppppppper soft and comfy. Then go ride a rooted trail and tell me how it feels.

Frame flex wont absorb impacts as well as tires but believe it or not, its still more effecient than suspension. However, suspension certainly has its place!!! Modern suspension is fantastic but it will always have some weaknesses that can be minimized by letting other areas of the bike absorb what the suspension can't do effectively.

FWIW, my HT and FS bikes are aluminum. I just can't afford to buy a carbon frame but otherwise I'd probably have one. My current bikes do still ride excellent so I'm not hard pressed to spend an extra $1,000 or so until I can justify spending that much money.

 

[Ghost_HTX]

My take on carbon vs aluminium is this (and please bear in mind that when it comes to CFRP I am an enthusiastic amateur - I'm not a CFRP specialist and this is based on personal observations / anecdotal evidence from others / the net / stuff I read) ;

1. For the same weight, carbon is much stiffer
a. This makes for better power transfer.
b. This makes for better more predictable handling.

2. Carbon is also superior to aluminium with regards to vibration dampening
a. This means that the ride on a carbon framed bike "should" be smoother, less fatiguing over a long ride. Think less numb hands, stiff elbows / sore shoulders.
b. Note that steel has similar characteristics to carbon in this respect.

3. For a given volume of material, carbon is far lighter (already said here).

4. The methods used to build a carbon frame also make it possible to design in different characteristics (as has been said before - some parts stiff, some parts flexy, some parts stiff in one direction, flexy in another) to the different parts of the frame, depending on how the carbon sheets are placed in the lay up (orientation, number of sheets, number and type of fibres etc) and how much resin is used / what type of resin is used.
a. An example would be that it is possible to manufacture super stiff and light rims, front triangles and chain stays and compliant seat posts note I say post - not tube) and seat stays. The first aids to the performance of the bike, the second to the rider comfort.

5. Carbon does not tolerate impact damage the same way as aluminium.
a. Rocks hitting your (unprotected) carbon down tube are more likely to cause damage than if the tube was steel or aluminium (if the tube is titanium, the rocks explode!)
b. Carbon is "softer" than aluminium - in so far that sharp impacts will deform the CFRP - the same hits on aluminium or steel would most likely have no effect... Titanium has some sort of naturally generated force field that repels everything - except hot women. They are naturally attracted to titanium. This effect is magnified exponentially if the bike is SS and / or the rider has a beard. YMMV.
c. This can be negated by protecting the most exposed parts of the frame with tape or purpose manufactured guards (yes, this adds weight...)

6. Carbon suffers failure in a different way to aluminium
a. Carbon experiences only very slight plastic deformation before it breaks. Aluminium and steel both experience significantly more plastic deformation before they break. Titanium laughs at plastic deformation. I.e. Carbon does not noticeably bend before breaking - it just breaks. Aluminium and steel both bend before failing. Titanium rocks.

7. It can be more difficult to see damage in a carbon frame than an alloy one.
a. As said before - aluminium and steel bend / dent / deform when damaged. You can see this damage and can take steps to investigate and repair / replace as required so that you don't risk riding a broken bike and having a mighty crash.
b. Carbon doesn't tend to dent, bend or deform. If damaged enough, it (usually) cracks. These cracks are sometimes visible, sometimes not. Sometimes the cracks are only in the paint / clear coat but because of the uncertainty factor folks don't want to chance riding what might be a damaged frame / component.
c. Carbon can be repaired! This is still viewed with some uncertainty by some folks - but it is a viable option nowadays! Really!
d. Titanium increases sexual performance and prowess by 1000%. Minimum. Regardless of your gender or sexual orientation.

8. Bike companies know the allure of carbon and play on it. I.e. they offer carbon framed bikes with mid - low range components at a premium over the comparable aluminium frame with high end components.
a. The bastards!



Yeah - it was as slow Friday morning at work today...

 

[Hooch]

I have two bikes, brand new al 29r stumpjumper evo 29r 2015 model. great bike for all mountain.
my other bike is a second hand merida team carbon 96r 26 inch 2011, upgraded components and 120mm suspension instead of the usual 100mm (previous owner was part of a sponsered team and sold it to me for no profit) I love both bikes but the carbon one has one advantage. When I have to fly it won't cost me a fortune in excess baggage fees as it weights half of my specialized.

 

[Cleared2land]

When I have to fly it won't cost me a fortune in excess baggage fees as it weights half of my specialized.

I'm not sure this logic will work for you. While airlines all seem to have different rules, fees and charges for transporting your on-board bike, they generally charge (fundamentally) by dimension and excess weight over 50 lbs. All of my bikes inside a Hard Case bike luggage with a few extras, fall under the 50 lbs. excess weight fee. You are usually charged by dimension and those fees can be all over the chart depending on airline and class of ticket (first, business or coach or economy).

 

[IPunchCholla]

My take on carbon vs aluminium is this (and please bear in mind that when it comes to CFRP I am an enthusiastic amateur - I'm not a CFRP specialist and this is based on personal observations / anecdotal evidence from others / the net / stuff I read) ;

1. For the same weight, carbon is much stiffer
a. This makes for better power transfer.
b. This makes for better more predictable handling.

2. Carbon is also superior to aluminium with regards to vibration dampening
a. This means that the ride on a carbon framed bike "should" be smoother, less fatiguing over a long ride. Think less numb hands, stiff elbows / sore shoulders.
b. Note that steel has similar characteristics to carbon in this respect.

3. For a given volume of material, carbon is far lighter (already said here).

4. The methods used to build a carbon frame also make it possible to design in different characteristics (as has been said before - some parts stiff, some parts flexy, some parts stiff in one direction, flexy in another) to the different parts of the frame, depending on how the carbon sheets are placed in the lay up (orientation, number of sheets, number and type of fibres etc) and how much resin is used / what type of resin is used.
a. An example would be that it is possible to manufacture super stiff and light rims, front triangles and chain stays and compliant seat posts note I say post - not tube) and seat stays. The first aids to the performance of the bike, the second to the rider comfort.

5. Carbon does not tolerate impact damage the same way as aluminium.
a. Rocks hitting your (unprotected) carbon down tube are more likely to cause damage than if the tube was steel or aluminium (if the tube is titanium, the rocks explode!)
b. Carbon is "softer" than aluminium - in so far that sharp impacts will deform the CFRP - the same hits on aluminium or steel would most likely have no effect... Titanium has some sort of naturally generated force field that repels everything - except hot women. They are naturally attracted to titanium. This effect is magnified exponentially if the bike is SS and / or the rider has a beard. YMMV.
c. This can be negated by protecting the most exposed parts of the frame with tape or purpose manufactured guards (yes, this adds weight...)

6. Carbon suffers failure in a different way to aluminium
a. Carbon experiences only very slight plastic deformation before it breaks. Aluminium and steel both experience significantly more plastic deformation before they break. Titanium laughs at plastic deformation. I.e. Carbon does not noticeably bend before breaking - it just breaks. Aluminium and steel both bend before failing. Titanium rocks.

7. It can be more difficult to see damage in a carbon frame than an alloy one.
a. As said before - aluminium and steel bend / dent / deform when damaged. You can see this damage and can take steps to investigate and repair / replace as required so that you don't risk riding a broken bike and having a mighty crash.
b. Carbon doesn't tend to dent, bend or deform. If damaged enough, it (usually) cracks. These cracks are sometimes visible, sometimes not. Sometimes the cracks are only in the paint / clear coat but because of the uncertainty factor folks don't want to chance riding what might be a damaged frame / component.
c. Carbon can be repaired! This is still viewed with some uncertainty by some folks - but it is a viable option nowadays! Really!
d. Titanium increases sexual performance and prowess by 1000%. Minimum. Regardless of your gender or sexual orientation.

8. Bike companies know the allure of carbon and play on it. I.e. they offer carbon framed bikes with mid - low range components at a premium over the comparable aluminium frame with high end components.
a. The bastards!

Yeah - it was as slow Friday morning at work today...

I always thought 5 was true, but watching the video posted earlier in the thread, I'm starting to wonder if it is. That carbon frame certainly took sharp edged hits well.

 

[291748]

I'm pretty sure that by 'sharp edged hit', the reference was to something like a rock actually making contact with the frame. This is how a handful of my riding buddies have broken their carbon frames: low speed falls in bony terrain.

 

[IPunchCholla]

I'm pretty sure that by 'sharp edged hit', the reference was to something like a rock actually making contact with the frame. This is how a handful of my riding buddies have broken their carbon frames: low speed falls in bony terrain.

Those falls scare the crap out of me on my carbon bike, but so far, so good. The video shows them wacking a carbon frame against a concrete corner repeatedly. No numbers, no comparison to aluminum, no after inspection, so useless, but it did get me to wondering.

I have taken a fair number of rocks to the down tube that have managed to miss the protector. These are fist sized rocks getting kicked up while I'm going 20mph or so. No damage so far. Also have fallen over and leveraged my whole weight on the frame as I drug it over a pointed rock. Couple of scratches was all the frame took (I suffered significantly more damage)

Anecdotally, I hear of cases like your friends. And I hear it enough that I believe carbon is more sensitive to sharp edged hits, just wondering if there are any tests out there documenting how much more vulnerable they are. I'll have to look around.

 

[phlegm]

My take on carbon vs aluminium is this (and please bear in mind that when it comes to CFRP I am an enthusiastic amateur - I'm not a CFRP specialist and this is based on personal observations / anecdotal evidence from others / the net / stuff I read) ;

1. For the same weight, carbon is much stiffer
a. This makes for better power transfer.
b. This makes for better more predictable handling.

2. Carbon is also superior to aluminium with regards to vibration dampening
a. This means that the ride on a carbon framed bike "should" be smoother, less fatiguing over a long ride. Think less numb hands, stiff elbows / sore shoulders.
b. Note that steel has similar characteristics to carbon in this respect.

3. For a given volume of material, carbon is far lighter (already said here).

4. The methods used to build a carbon frame also make it possible to design in different characteristics (as has been said before - some parts stiff, some parts flexy, some parts stiff in one direction, flexy in another) to the different parts of the frame, depending on how the carbon sheets are placed in the lay up (orientation, number of sheets, number and type of fibres etc) and how much resin is used / what type of resin is used.
a. An example would be that it is possible to manufacture super stiff and light rims, front triangles and chain stays and compliant seat posts note I say post - not tube) and seat stays. The first aids to the performance of the bike, the second to the rider comfort.

5. Carbon does not tolerate impact damage the same way as aluminium.
a. Rocks hitting your (unprotected) carbon down tube are more likely to cause damage than if the tube was steel or aluminium (if the tube is titanium, the rocks explode!)
b. Carbon is "softer" than aluminium - in so far that sharp impacts will deform the CFRP - the same hits on aluminium or steel would most likely have no effect... Titanium has some sort of naturally generated force field that repels everything - except hot women. They are naturally attracted to titanium. This effect is magnified exponentially if the bike is SS and / or the rider has a beard. YMMV.
c. This can be negated by protecting the most exposed parts of the frame with tape or purpose manufactured guards (yes, this adds weight...)

6. Carbon suffers failure in a different way to aluminium
a. Carbon experiences only very slight plastic deformation before it breaks. Aluminium and steel both experience significantly more plastic deformation before they break. Titanium laughs at plastic deformation. I.e. Carbon does not noticeably bend before breaking - it just breaks. Aluminium and steel both bend before failing. Titanium rocks.

7. It can be more difficult to see damage in a carbon frame than an alloy one.
a. As said before - aluminium and steel bend / dent / deform when damaged. You can see this damage and can take steps to investigate and repair / replace as required so that you don't risk riding a broken bike and having a mighty crash.
b. Carbon doesn't tend to dent, bend or deform. If damaged enough, it (usually) cracks. These cracks are sometimes visible, sometimes not. Sometimes the cracks are only in the paint / clear coat but because of the uncertainty factor folks don't want to chance riding what might be a damaged frame / component.
c. Carbon can be repaired! This is still viewed with some uncertainty by some folks - but it is a viable option nowadays! Really!
d. Titanium increases sexual performance and prowess by 1000%. Minimum. Regardless of your gender or sexual orientation.

8. Bike companies know the allure of carbon and play on it. I.e. they offer carbon framed bikes with mid - low range components at a premium over the comparable aluminium frame with high end components.
a. The bastards!

Yeah - it was as slow Friday morning at work today...

Great post!

 

[Cayenne_Pepa]

I posted this on another similar thread...

Jeezzz...

All types of opinions and persuasions. Everyone's opinion seems to be the gospel.

Perhaps this is really far simpler than many make it to be.

If you have the money, you can afford a nice ride (whatever that is), then buy it.

Bonus if you have the skills and abilities to discern the attributes and qualities of your new ride.

Yep....too many Chiefs and not enough "******" If you're still crashing lots - avoid the CF.

 

[Hooch]

I'm not sure this logic will work for you. While airlines all seem to have different rules, fees and charges for transporting your on-board bike, they generally charge (fundamentally) by dimension and excess weight over 50 lbs. All of my bikes inside a Hard Case bike luggage with a few extras, fall under the 50 lbs. excess weight fee. You are usually charged by dimension and those fees can be all over the chart depending on airline and class of ticket (first, business or coach or economy).

here in aus its weight not size 23kg max after that start forking cash out over 32kg and they won't even take it for health and safety reasons. it so less is better to get bike n gear onto a flight.

 

[Cleared2land]

here in aus its weight not size 23kg max after that start forking cash out over 32kg and they won't even take it for health and safety reasons. it so less is better to get bike n gear onto a flight.

What Australian airline?

Qantas bike pack dimensions are pretty standard with the states:

Length: 140cm (55in)
Width: 30cm (12in)
Height: 80cm (32in)

For traveling with bikes, Qantas fails to mention weight, only diminsions.

 

[Lollygaggin]

I have an aluminum HT. Would carbon bars help much w/ the dampening of trail chatter?

 

[Ghost_HTX]

Yes it most likely would. It would also save a wee bit weight too. Carbon seat post would also help with ride comfort.