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WR304

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Discussion starter · #1 ·


I've got a Notio aerometer sensor to try out. It's not actually mine, just on loan for a bit.

https://notio.ai/

What this is is an airspeed sensor (with other sensors built in too) that is intended to allow you to measure your aerodynamic drag CdA in real time. In this picture it's mounted on the front of the bike and you can see the green light where it is turned on. I had to put it up high due to the cables. On a road or time trial bike the mount would sit flat.

The idea is that as you ride along you can test different equipment and positions, such as riding on aero bars vs the base bar or different skinsuits, wheels etc to see how this affects your aerodynamic drag measurements whilst outdoors in real time on the Garmin display without needing to be in a wind tunnel. The lower the drag measurement reading the better the aerodynamics are.

The idea is to give it a go fitted to my Orbea Oiz mountain bike to see what the data from it looks like, try some testing protocols etc and see if I can learn anything useful at the same time.:)

Article and Podcasts regarding the Notio aerometer sensor:

Cycling Weekly article
https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/...product-news/are-aerodynamic-drag-measuring-tools-the-tech-of-the-future-448581

Endurance Podcast 57 (fast forwards to 16 minutes in)
https://endurance-innovation-podcast.simplecast.com/episodes/57-notio-aerometer-and-swearing

Endurance Podcast 60 on aero sensors
https://endurance-innovation-podcas...cast.simplecast.com/episodes/60-all-about-aerodynamic-sensors-with-chris-morton

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This is like the Aeropod. I have a Powerpod which is made by the same company. It has a pitot tube to measure forward air speed, barometric altimeter, tilt sensor and pairs with speed and cadence sensors so it effectively outputs power based on measurements that data. Not sure if it's accurate or not but I think it's ok on a relative basis. Certainly cheaper than a DFPM and I can transfer it from one bike to another easily.

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Oh that is cool. I could through a lot of different test ideas at you. But I am really curious about bar width.
 
Oh that is cool. I could through a lot of different test ideas at you. But I am really curious about bar width.
Yep, me too. I didn't jump into that discussion about handlebars because I think there is more than meets the eye. It's not just about one rock garden but the entire course. And there are just so many variables to consider to be confident about an answer. The aero impact would be really interesting.
 
Yep, me too. I didn't jump into that discussion about handlebars because I think there is more than meets the eye. It's not just about one rock garden but the entire course. And there are just so many variables to consider to be confident about an answer. The aero impact would be really interesting.
I agree.

It is really easy to get caught up in trying to make your bike better for what is a small portion of a race track and make a change that it makes it just a bit worse everywhere else. And some of those negatives (like aero ones) really only show up when you are at race speed.
 
Discussion starter · #7 ·
I gave this a try today, doing 5 20 minute passes out and back on the same road. It took a long time! :)

I did 3 runs with my hands on the normal handlebar grips and then 2 with my hands on the middle of the bars to compare. A/B testing (grips, then middle of bar, then grips, then middle of bar, then grips in that order). In the picture above it was holding the bar tape wrap on the middle of the bars for a narrower position. I then had to go and shelter under a tree to try and keep the sensor dry as there was a thunderstorm so I went home after that!

Averaged out over all the long runs I did actually get a measurable improvement of 0.02 CdA less for the middle handlebar position showing it had less drag, so it did seem to do something.

What was immediately apparent is that it would be impossible to ride to the CdA figures in real time for holding a particular position. The display is a 60 second rolling average, so it's reacting to what you did a minute previously beforehand. At one point for example on the way to the test location I went down a short hill tucked in freewheeling, my CdA shown on the display was very low (reflecting where I'd been tucked in) even when I was riding up the slope after the downhill very upright so actually with a high CdA at that point.

The list of outside factors and variables is massive. Despite what the marketing says a much better venue for this type of testing would be a velodrome where as many factors as possible can be controlled, rather than outdoors on open roads. Trying to do this sort of testing outdoors on open roads is not easy. I went and found a quiet country lane that I could do 4 miles each way out and back but even so there was some traffic and it wasn't perfectly flat either, being slightly uphill 0.8% gradient on the way out and the same slightly downhill on the way back.

Wind, particularly crosswinds, is a real problem for the readings too. At different yaw angles the crosswind can affect your drag, only the Notio aerometer sensor doesn't take this into account, always assuming for its calculations that you are at zero yaw (riding into a headwind or with a tailwind). This showed up clearly in the testing I was doing today, where although I was riding along holding a set position each time, so there should have been little or no change in my CdA drag, the recorded readings would change massively at times despite this.

At some places on the route that were more exposed for example it would go from 0.390 CdA to 0.264 CdA for a short period of time where the wind was coming across from the side without much shelter, and then it would be repeated on the way back but with the numbers the other way round. A difference of 0.126 CdA is a lot, like changing type of bike!

CRR (tyre rolling resistance) is a big unknown too. I used the Bicycle Rolling Resistance CRR test value for my 29x2.3" Specialized Ground Control tyres @30psi tubeless (0.009 CRR) but is it right for my bike? It doesn't affect the relative figures (the difference between runs) but it does make a big difference to that overall CdA figure for trying to compare to other bikes.
 
Discussion starter · #8 ·
Here's a summary of the five test runs I did yesterday using the Notio aerometer sensor.



This is the average of the runs.



This is the graph showing Run number 3 holding the 720mm handlebar grips and pedalling throughout.



The top trace on the graph is altitude with the mid point being where I did a u-turn before going back in the opposite direction along the country lane. The middle trace is the CdA reading and the bottom reading is wind speed. In theory that CdA reading should be fairly constant reading as I didn't change position.

What this appears to shows I think is the affect of crosswinds, and possibly traffic as some cars did go past. The highlighted part with the big drop in CdA (I didn't change position and it happened every run) is a bit more open without any hedgerow cover on one side. There could have been more of a crosswind at that point perhaps.

With the wind I think it picked up or changed direction during the ride too affecting the results. The wind speed summary is different over the runs. Each of the five runs took about 20 minutes, and I had a few minutes between each one, so from start to finish it took me over 1 hour 40 minutes. In the top table my first full run holding the handlebar grips had a recorded CdA of 0.378 but by my fifth and final run holding the handlebar grips my recorded CdA had increased to 0.389 for the same holding the handlebar grips position!

It was a start but has also showed up a lot of issues that need sorting out to get meaningful results. The main one is finding a suitable test venue. I need something like the cycle path in this video that the Astana team were using for testing.:)


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Discussion starter · #9 · (Edited)
I had a second try with the Notio aerometer sensor today.

I really wanted to try and improve on what I thought the problems were with the first test - too much altitude change over the test route, too much traffic, too much crosswind and too long a test route to be able to fit multiple runs in without the weather changing over time.

This time I set off at first light 5.52am on Sunday morning to do a 2.52 mile (roughly 9 minute per run) distance route on the flattest main road I could think of without needing to drive there by car. My hope was that by doing the shorter route I could fit in enough test runs on it before there would be much if any passing traffic. There were maybe 1 or 2 cars per test run so not bad but there was a bit of a crosswind.

Along with the test route I also decided to try and make a big enough equipment change that it should give a noticeable difference in CdA. The aim was to try and prove whether the Notio aerometer sensor would be able to identify differences.

For the first 3 runs I started off wearing a Castelli race fit cycling jersey and Giro Aether non aero helmet holding the grips in a normal upright position. I then did a further 3 runs wearing a Castelli San Remo skinsuit and Specialized Evade 2 aero helmet holding the grips in a normal upright position. I had hoped to do a further 3 runs wearing baggy shorts and t-shirt at the end but 6 runs and changing kit took 1 hour 15 minutes so there was already starting to be too much traffic on the main road to be able to keep doing any testing after about 7am. :(



This table shows the summary of the 6 test runs that I did. Unlike my first try I actually got what appear to be some reasonable results!

Wearing the jersey and Giro Aether non aero helmet I had an average time for the 2.52 miles of 8 minutes 55 seconds at an average power of 168 watts, average speed 16.9mph. I had an average CdA of 0.417 over the three runs.

Wearing the skinsuit and Specialized Evade 2 aero helmet I had an average time for the 2.52 miles of 8 minutes 47 seconds at an average power of 168 watts, average speed 17.2mph. I had an average CdA of 0.396 over the three runs.

The skinsuit and Specialized Evade 2 aero helmet kit was 8 seconds faster over the 2.52 miles for the same 168 watt power output, an increase in average speed of 0.3mph and a reduction in CdA of 0.021.



In order to check if the Notio CdA numbers were close I tried putting the same CdA and power output values into this calculator:

Cycling Physics Calculator

Using the Notio CdA numbers the time saving over 2.5 miles (4km) per the calculator was 7 seconds whilst the actual time saving per my test rides was 8 seconds. :eekster:

I was really pleased with that as it shows that given the right test conditions the Notio aerometer does work, certainly for large changes.



This graph shows the CdA during the third jersey + Giro Aether helmet test run. This was on a flat main road out and back with a u-turn that I had to brake and slow down at the mid point.

Overall the CdA was a lot more stable and consistent on this route for both the out and back portions. It wasn't perfect though. At the start of each test run is that same rapid rise curve from a very low CdA and at the turn point, where I had to brake and slow down, there's a minute afterwards where the CdA jumps to 0.519 which appears to be related to the turn (with a 60 second rolling average the CdA change is delayed) before settling down again for the return trip.

With a better testing route again (even flatter, no wind, no traffic and a turn that doesn't need slowing down for) I think the results could be made better than the ones here.:)
 
One of the strangest things about Enduro/DH racing is that people (Pros + Everyday Joes) will throw thousands of dollars at custom suspension but insist on flapping their way down their race runs.

For some reason, looking like you’re a shitty motocross racer is more important than actually going faster.


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Discussion starter · #12 ·
Something that I spent some time trying to get sorted out are the assumptions used. Although it sounds like you can just do this testing, and then get a nice result, it really depends on the inputs that you enter. Different inputs can massively change the results!

If you look at the aeroweenie computation above it shows what I used. In the aeroweenie computation the overall estimated time for each run is several seconds different to actual (jersey + Giro Aether helmet 8 minutes 55 seconds actual vs 8 minutes 51 seconds computed and skinsuit + Specialized Evade 2 helmet 8 minutes 47 seconds actual vs 8 minutes 44 seconds computed). It's a difference of between 3 and 4 seconds that the computation is too fast by (not equal due to rounding somewhere in the aeroweenie computation I think).

There are four main inputs in that aeroweenie computation that I put in besides CdA: Rider + bike weight, CRR (Tyre rolling resistance), Drivetrain efficiency, Power output. Several of those are guesses rather than known.

The rider and bike weight is from actual measurements that I did so I was happy with that.

CRR (Tyre rolling resistance) is an entire subject in itself! This is why I did the tests on tarmac, rather than offroad, to try and keep it as constant as possible. CRR (tyre rolling resistance) changes on different surfaces, usually increasing offroad. For this I used the figure from Bicycle Rolling Resistance for a Specialized Ground Control 29x2.3" tyre and hoped it was close enough.

https://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/mtb-reviews/specialized-ground-control-2016

Drivetrain efficiency is another big unknown. Somewhere between 98 and 97% efficiency seems to be a typical estimate. My bike is in good condition with a newish XTR 12 speed chain and squirt chainlube, ceramic bearings etc but 1 x drivetrains can have higher friction, particularly on an MTB when using the smaller sprockets like I have been for these tests on the road so I went with 97% efficiency:

https://www.velonews.com/gear/gear-issue-friction-differences-between-1x-and-2x-drivetrains/



Power output is recorded by my Power2Max NG Eco power meter which has a claimed +/-2% accuracy. I did some comparisons of its readings against my Tacx Neo 2T turbo trainer a while ago (The Tacx Neo 2T has a claimed +/-1% accuracy) and in those tests the Power2Max NG Eco read 4 or 5 watts higher than the Tacx Neo 2T.



Where that comes into it is that in the aeroweenie computation reducing the power output down from 168 watts to 164 watts, which would reflect if the power meter was reading high, makes the computation times match almost exactly with the actual times that I did today.:)
 
One of the strangest things about Enduro/DH racing is that people (Pros + Everyday Joes) will throw thousands of dollars at custom suspension but insist on flapping their way down their race runs.

For some reason, looking like you're a shitty motocross racer is more important than actually going faster.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
What does it matter? If none of their competitors are wearing skinsuits, then they can all quietly agree not too. It's just like Nino doesn't wear a Scott Split helmet. It's relative not absolute speed that matters. Nobody thinks lycra or skinsuits look good except for a small niche group of cyclists. For me, its a necessary evil and I have to put up with jokes from my wife and her friends. But my competitors wear it, so.....
 
One of the strangest things about Enduro/DH racing is that people (Pros + Everyday Joes) will throw thousands of dollars at custom suspension but insist on flapping their way down their race runs.

For some reason, looking like you're a shitty motocross racer is more important than actually going faster.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Yeah, when you are that fast/good, shitty suspension becomes a fairly hard limit, I mean, you can push faster, but your chance of danger increases dramatically at that point. It's amazing what properly tuned suspension will let you do, in terms of riding sections faster and more in control. There isn't a lot else you are going to control given all the direction changes and necessary safety gear. It's nothing like my fat-bike that is an aerodynamic brick.

Hambini, as arrogant as he is, is pretty spot on with all of his aero critique. I've checked it against my textbooks and classes. In short, it's a lot more nuanced than most of the bike industry makes it out to be and the marketing plays to those who don't know much about it. His comments about how the industry is scraping the bottom of the barrel are a little too far sometimes, but the marketing departments are more than happy to plug something that doesn't really do what is claimed. Aero is a lot more nuanced than people think and sometimes it works completely opposite of what is expected. In the sport of enduro/DH, it's not even worth it to get far into it, since no one is really doing any testing and the terrain requires massive changes to body position and direction (yaw).
 
What does it matter? If none of their competitors are wearing skinsuits, then they can all quietly agree not too. It's just like Nino doesn't wear a Scott Split helmet. It's relative not absolute speed that matters. Nobody thinks lycra or skinsuits look good except for a small niche group of cyclists. For me, its a necessary evil and I have to put up with jokes from my wife and her friends. But my competitors wear it, so.....
No quiet agreements at all.

As per the UCI for DH racing.
4.3.011 All lycra-elastane based tight-fitting clothing is not permitted.
4.3.012 A full-face helmet must be worn properly both when racing and when training on the course. The helmet must be fitted with a peak. Open-face helmets may not be worn.
 
No quiet agreements at all.

As per the UCI for DH racing.
4.3.011 All lycra-elastane based tight-fitting clothing is not permitted.
4.3.012 A full-face helmet must be worn properly both when racing and when training on the course. The helmet must be fitted with a peak. Open-face helmets may not be worn.
Futher: https://www.bikeradar.com/news/uci-...com/news/uci-ban-skinsuits-and-open-face-helmets-for-mountain-bike-competition/

TL;DR: Tracy Mosely wore a skin suit, and beat Rachel. Rachel said "Fair enough to Tracy if she wants to do that to win, but for the sport and the longevity of the sport, to wear cool race kit and to make an image for yourself is more important than the odd win here and there", and then UCI banned it.

Soon: Wearing fanny packs looks cool, so UCI requires it on all mtb athletes.
 
Pretty much every commercial sports tries to balance an image with tactics of winning at all costs. Enduro and DH definitely have a different following than the XC crowd and make up arguably a much larger segment of the MTB community. I know on our group rides, at least 50% of the riders simply refuse to wear lycra and some will do it reluctantly. A small percentage of XC racers do it enthusiastically.

The other thing about both DH and Enduro is that the riders are much better off riding with protective equipment because you are expected to ride at the edge of control. Wearing a skinsuit would only be a temporary advantage because if it works, everybody else will follow suit. And then your advantage is gone and the only thing that has changed is that the entire field is racing with less protection making the sport more dangerous.
 
Pretty much every commercial sports tries to balance an image with tactics of winning at all costs. Enduro and DH definitely have a different following than the XC crowd and make up arguably a much larger segment of the MTB community. I know on our group rides, at least 50% of the riders simply refuse to wear lycra and some will do it reluctantly. A small percentage of XC racers do it enthusiastically.

The other thing about both DH and Enduro is that the riders are much better off riding with protective equipment because you are expected to ride at the edge of control. Wearing a skinsuit would only be a temporary advantage because if it works, everybody else will follow suit. And then your advantage is gone and the only thing that has changed is that the entire field is racing with less protection making the sport more dangerous.
Definitely agree with the problem of increasing risk by decreasing protection, but that said, there's a big difference between wearing flapping clothing, and protection. I think a case could be made that form fitting clothing (and padding) would reduce the likelihood of getting sniped by branches and rocks.

If more aero clothing were allowed, then it might push protection manufacturers to design better protection that helps you be both fast and aero. Even further, if flapping clothing limits the top speeds of the bikes, then it also prevents bike manufacturers from further exploring the limits of their bikes. There are rather interesting potential consequences from a political mandate such as this.

But, perhaps, I'm too close to the racing scene, because I think standing on the podium is cooler than looking "cool" off of it.

Back on topic: OP, can you test that aero position that the redbull athletes are starting to use, where they reach down and grab their fork crown? I think Kate is most known for it, but I've seen Payson doing it too. How much better is that than say, laying your forearms on the bars? Or just crouching down?
 
Definitely agree with the problem of increasing risk by decreasing protection, but that said, there's a big difference between wearing flapping clothing, and protection. I think a case could be made that form fitting clothing (and padding) would reduce the likelihood of getting sniped by branches and rocks.

If more aero clothing were allowed, then it might push protection manufacturers to design better protection that helps you be both fast and aero. Or just crouching down?
These are good points. I have noticed recently that nearly all of the World Cup DH riders are riding much more form fitting jerseys and pants with their padding. In fact, I went to some of the clothing sites to see if these form fitting cuts were being sold, but I couldn't find anything - at least there is no explicit marketing. So maybe these riders are just sizing down But I would definitely be interested in "baggies" that didn't flap in the wind for my general trail riding.
 
Yeah, when you are that fast/good, shitty suspension becomes a fairly hard limit, I mean, you can push faster, but your chance of danger increases dramatically at that point. It's amazing what properly tuned suspension will let you do, in terms of riding sections faster and more in control. There isn't a lot else you are going to control given all the direction changes and necessary safety gear. It's nothing like my fat-bike that is an aerodynamic brick.

Hambini, as arrogant as he is, is pretty spot on with all of his aero critique. I've checked it against my textbooks and classes. In short, it's a lot more nuanced than most of the bike industry makes it out to be and the marketing plays to those who don't know much about it. His comments about how the industry is scraping the bottom of the barrel are a little too far sometimes, but the marketing departments are more than happy to plug something that doesn't really do what is claimed. Aero is a lot more nuanced than people think and sometimes it works completely opposite of what is expected. In the sport of enduro/DH, it's not even worth it to get far into it, since no one is really doing any testing and the terrain requires massive changes to body position and direction (yaw).
I realize it's a complex problem.

My point was that there is free/cheap speed out there. I'm not talking about wind tunnel testing to maximize a position; I'm talking about Richie Rude wearing slightly more form fitting clothing than his competitors. Which, turns out, he did, and now many people are having their stuff altered. Clothing is significantly more form fitting now in EWS racing than it was 5 years ago.

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