I'll make the popcorn.

 

What tire lube is the best?

 

Proof is in the numbers. Some people will still be in denial

 

The truth will set you free

 

How long was the climb, and how steep was it? And was it tight, or pretty open? I assume this was in turbo mode? Or... whatever they call "full power output" mode?

I read this as "this is what I was expecting", in the sense of the capabilities and outputs of your average class 1 ebike, and average rider (ie, most people don't climb at their FTP, and a large percentage of people likely have an FTP is probably within 75w of 250w). I see it as a variation of "self shuttling" for the most part.

As you say, not all places will allow that sort of speed differential (ie, trail is too tight to go that fast). And in some areas this might not be a problem, while it could be in others. I can see it working just fine in the "winch and plummet" style trail systems, where access up is largely on fireroads or doubletrack, and you have plenty of room to pass. Singletrack climbs might be more problematic with conflict with hikers/bikers though.

 

How long was the climb, and how steep was it? And was it tight, or pretty open? I assume this was in turbo mode? Or... whatever they call "full power output" mode?

Here is the ride if you want to take a look, The "long segment" i posted is tight single track, the short segment is open double track. Most of the climb is open double track.

https://www.strava.com/activities/6546305491/embed/7f0daec38a9f1d48f1bb1ad4dff9f1d1df3cd51f

 

Matches my ebikes climbing speed. I'm 3x as fast up and only slightly faster down. DH super sticky tires help. I can do 3-4x the drops in the same time. It's amazing and my DH/jumping skills have had a massive boost with all the extra laps I can get in. I'm the quickest I've ever been and the ebike was the key.

Our trails are straight up fireroads with fall line single-track.

I still ride a road bike for fitness and to balance out my training when it's to wet to ride dirt.
Edit
On eco mode I am only 1.5x faster but can do 6.5k of climbing and 11 drops in about 2 hours

 

No surprise here, except the actual differences in climb speed are even greater than I expected. But when Tony Tubalinksi cooks past me on the uphills with his pasty breadbasket poking out from under his shirt, it is immediately obvious that it isn't a matter of fitness. Curious to see the responses, my experience is that there is a pretty good contingent of attack dogs in this forum. If it were me, I'd just shrug and say 'Thats the way I like to do it, its fun and sucks less". Popcorn in hand...

 

We just had our first Tony experience a few weeks back. Had a fairly steep and long road climb to get to the trail. We weren't exactly pushing to get to the top but Tony came whirring by us like we were walking. My son was like what the HECK!! He was out of sight when we got to the trail but we caught him pretty fast once in the woods. He looked back and tried to get away from us and quickly ran off the trail and hit a tree. So bike skills still count for something, sometimes. A good and fit rider on an E bike will walk away from about anyone though. We see a couple of brothers in their 70's on e-bikes out in our usual trails quite often. Great guys and both have said they would have had to quit riding without the e bikes so I'm happy they are able to still ride. If it comes down to not being able to ride there will be one in my garage. Not just yet though.

 

Your move ebikers

 

 

Yep, ebikes can climb super fast. I love that aspect along with it taking pressure off my knees and back while climbing. However I've noticed that my average lap times are still similar to my old bikes. It's mostly because I ride at the same pace regardless what bike it actually is. Over the last couple weeks, I have only earned 2 gold medals for beating my previous times and that's about it.

These days I'm just happy to be outside pedaling and don't care about my overall speed. On my Levo I typically stick with level 1 or 2 for pedal assist.

 

Derestrict that bike!

Search results for: 'Specialized Turbo Levo'

 

Wait a bike with an electric motor is faster up a hill than with out a motor

....

 

Thanks for sharing a clear example. It seems obvious that an eBike can way (3x in this example) faster, but is often disputed on this forum and elsewhere.

 

The only problem with ebikes, is riding with people on ebikes. Try pedaling a class 1 climb with joe schmoe couch potato talking your ear off beside you while you're gasping for air....

 

Who in their right mind ever said they're not at least 2x as fast uphill? Mine adds about 200 watts in Turbo IIRC, which is about double what I can put out for a long period, and it's only a 65nm Orbea Rise with a de-tuned motor. Where people have a problem is when some say they're too fast for the trails and will ruin them and endanger everyone. Is climbing at 12mph vs 4 or 5 or whatever really a safety issue? As you showed, going downhill, where a faster bike might be an issue or dangerous, the speeds are the same. And on flatter singletrack, THIS is where you will go a bit faster but not enough to be dangerous except in the wrong hands, like any other bike.

Again, what is so bad about going 2-3 times faster uphill? I can guarantee you there are some fast locals (maybe pros) that can ride uphill 2-3 times as fast as you, are they dangerous? I just don't get the whole list of your post...

 

Is climbing at 12mph vs 4 or 5 or whatever really a safety issue? As you showed, going downhill, where a faster bike might be an issue or dangerous, the speeds are the same. And on flatter singletrack, THIS is where you will go a bit faster but not enough to be dangerous except in the wrong hands, like any other bike.

Again, what is so bad about going 2-3 times faster uphill? I can guarantee you there are some fast locals (maybe pros) that can ride uphill 2-3 times as fast as you, are they dangerous? I just don't get the whole list of your post...

Anecdotally, my local trail system is pretty contested in terms of mountain biker access (with user groups that are actively trying to remove bikers, getting editorials in the local newspaper, etc). And at the local meeting with the parks dept, the speed differential when climbing was called out as a concern for hikers, specifically for ebikes (ebikes are illegal here). Mountain bikers are faster than hikers on the climbs as well, but not as dramatically fast (most climb ~3-6mph-ish). But the ebikes are 2-3x that, and apparently they don't like getting passed at those speeds.

Given, its a highly local thing to me, but, I can at least confirm that its a "thing".

Given, ebikers don't have to ride at max power, or max personal effort either. So just because they can do 10-15mph uphill, doesn't mean they will. But it is feasible.

 

For me, the difference is about 3-4mph moving average for my ebike rides vs real bike rides. Typically, I average 6-7mph on my pedal bikes and I average about 10-10.5mph on my ebike. In isolation, and on certain climbs, ebikes can certainly blast up the trail at 3x the pace that I otherwise could on a pedal bike... but on the whole, I do not ride 3x the speed on my ebike that I do on my mtb's. I'm obviously faster going downhill on my mtb then my e-mtb generally. Certainly, there is no difference in downhill speed to note between the two, with the ebike being slower on extremely technical terrain.

Another few things that cross my mind as I think about this topic:
1) for me it's rather pointless to climb technical climbs in boost on an ebike. I have more control of the bike, and climb just as fast if I do the climb on trail. The bike is easier to get along with, and far easier to ride the features properly on a lower power level.
2) when you first start riding ebikes, you tend to be wow'd by the speed, which means you ride the bike in boost more often, and you tend to ride the bike 2-3 gears down from where you normally would to facilitate the additional power and speed. When I first started riding ebikes, I never used my granny gear. Now that I've gotten used to them, my average and even isolated section pace has reduced, because I'm back to riding the bike largely the way I normally would and in the same gears I normally would.
3) I think we're going to look back on this first generation of absolute max power, and no consideration to bike weight and wonder what we were thinking. These bikes aren't fun to be ridden like bikes, which causes people to do things they wouldn't normally do on a mtb. Like power up an easy climb at 18mph with no resistance in their legs. I think bikes like teh orbea rise and specialized levo SL, are what the majority of ebikes will be before too long, that will help normalize the ebike speed/power.
4) No matter what, I still haven't seen legal class 1 ebikes, that will truly out pace the strongest of riders on real terrain (fire roads don't count). I know plenty of hammer heads that easily climb on an XC race rig at the speed ebikes do. Matter of fact, I've been surprised that even with an ebike, I am not guaranteed to beat my PRs from my fittest riding days 10 years ago. Granted, I'm right on top of them without hammering on the ebike, but if anything, I'm more surprised by how fast I used to be without an ebike, then how fast I am now on an ebike.
5) A lot of this, is really terrain based. My local riding has climbs that are steeper then 10% grade, many times 18 - 25%. On those climbs, ebikes are not significantly faster at all. It's only the moderate, 250/mi climbs where an ebike can really open it's leg and push the pace north of 10-12-15mph. I imagine the pace delta being a significant issue in places with less elevation overall. A meandering climb or undulating terrain is where this is likely to show up the most.

 

My problem isn’t with ebikes in general, it’s with noobs on ebikes who don’t know anything about trail etiquette or how to be user friendly with other trail users. I’ve had old men run up behind me at 15mph and damn near run me off the trail trying to pass me, guys pass me on the climbs and then go 3mph on the downhill and get in my way because they have no idea how to ride a mtb.

An experienced trail user on an ebike is 100% fine by me. A noob on a pedal bike is also 100% fine by me. A noob on an ebike is almost always a nuisance, even if they don’t mean to be. It’s a bad combo and unfortunately, it’s an enticing product for a noobie with no stamina or fitness, so it’s becoming more and more common.

 

One solution could be for the pendulum to swing back towards building trails that are actually challenging rather than more brown sidewalks.

 

On a normal ebike like a levo it's impossible for even the fittest ride to keep up. Even on eco you have to kill yourself just to keep pace. I have several of the KOMs and tried riding my XC bike with friends on ebikes, it was not worth it.

Ebikes will not climb a 10% grade at 18 mph, even if you are on boost and putting out 400+ watts. 10-12 is more like it.

Noobs that have no clue will always suck regardless of the bike they are on.

Edit
It takes at least 700 watts to climb 10% at 12mph according to a wattage calculator.

 

On a normal ebike like a levo it's impossible for even the fittest ride to keep up. Even on eco you have to kill yourself just to keep pace. I have several of the KOMs and tried riding my XC bike with friends on ebikes, it was not worth it.

Ebikes will not climb a 10% grade at 18 mph, even if you are on boost and putting out 400+ watts. 10-12 is more like it.

Noobs that have no clue will always suck regardless of the bike they are on.

Edit
It takes at least 700 watts to climb 10% at 12mph according to a wattage calculator.

I'm relatively ebike un-educated. But won't most class 1 ebikes do 250w average, with temporary max power being 550ish watts? The question then becomes how long can it do that higher than average power.

But as you said, I do think there is a fair bit of hyperbole thrown around. Ie, the whole "they passed me on a 20% climb, going like 20mph" is probably unrealistic unless the rider was Nino or someone like that. But as you said, 10-15mph seems pretty doable on an average climb for an average rider if they're using a boost mode.

And, as others have said, a lot of it is etiquette. I don't think that an experienced rider who waits to pass people in ways that make sense would bother anyone out on the trail.

This post mostly is about the fact that the machine is capable. And because it is capable, some people use it, and that "could" be an issue.

 

Oh no you gonna steal all the KOM's!!😭

 

There is a local fast guy that goes out and grabs KOMs on his regular bike then posts the ride title " recovery ride on the e-bike" Throws people into fits.

 

If you pause for a moment, you can almost feel the eBike goal posts being moved. I'd like to speak to the manager about the last six years of forum posts "muh ebike is no faster than muh analog flintstone bike. Why U mad?". Apparently, the access issue is....berms.

Got it.

 

The access issue is spooking other trail users. That comes from un-educated regular bikers, trail speeds creeping up due to bike tech and modern trail building, ebikers, un-educated ebikers, strava a-holes and a handful of other issues. Your join date suggests that you remember the original pitch to get mtb's access in the first place and that ebikes directly double back on the sales pitch that was made then. Unfortunately, the conditions of the deal were never maintainable because it was a promise being made about a future that was out of everyone's control.

so yes, the goal posts move as the problem develops and the scope is understood, and impacted by further inside and outside influence. These are indeed, the facts of life. The reality is, that we're all in the same fishbowl now, whether you hate e bikes or you don't. Our fate is likely tied together, and there is not a solution that works long term where real bikes, get to continue trail access, and ebikes are banned. As the ebike technology progresses, the lines are blurred, and the situation is impossible to police. That likely means we all lose.

Everyone likely has one or two things that contribute to this problem in mind, and one or two things that might help fix it. What absolutely won't help fix it, is assuming that building a wall between mtb's and emtb's is the only path forward. I think threads like this, while annoying and echo-chambery at times... help us all understand the scope of where the goal posts are with what we know today.

In the end, the access issues are the same for us all, even if we are lone wolf types that largely don't get along. We still get lumped into the same fish bowl and pawed at by the cats that sit and watch us peck at each other.

 

I have a good friend who lost a leg a couple of years ago. Obviously E-bikes are amazing for him. What is stunning is just how fast he is on his.

I have a Levo SL, and he has a standard Levo. Going up a long switch back climb with my bike on turbo I was all in to try and keep up with him. And I am a fairly good climber.

 

Over the years there has been a lot of back and forth arguing about just how fast a Class 1 eBike can go and whether or not they are twice as fast as pedal bikes.

I have ridden street based eBikes in the past and was blown away by how quick they are.

Yesterday I finally had the chance to take a Specialized Levo on a lap of a section of trail I have ridden dozens of times over the years on my pedal bike.
This is something I have wanted to do for a number of years now, and finally had the opportunity.

I did the loop first on my pedal bike. I was riding average speeds, not trying to break any records and was very winded and breathing heavily when I got back to the top of the climb. I might have been able to push myself a little bit harder, but that would not have changed the results much.

After a small break I took the Levo on the same loop.

The results are in, Class 1 Pedelec Bikes are super fast, more than twice as fast when climbing.

Please note - I am not saying this is a good or bad thing. I am not saying this can impact every single trail. This is simply a comment about the speed of eBikes. I have been a member on this site for nearly 2 decades now and have been moderating for at least 10 years and the common line from many eBikers is they are only slightly faster.... that is just not true. Can we stop denying it?

Here is the strava data to back my statements up:

Full Loop:
View attachment 1966035
So just over twice as fast for the full loop, this loop starts and ends at a high point, so the decent is roughly equal the climb in elevation. The decent is single track, the climb is a combo of single track and double track, but mostly double track.

Downhill only:
View attachment 1966036
I was not expecting any difference here, there is no reason the eBike should be faster on a decent that requires almost no pedaling.

There is no segment for the entire climb from the bottom to the top. I can probably create one if anyone cares to see that section. But if we just do some quick math;
Pedal Bike 11:06 total minus 1:55 for the down makes the entire climb 9:11
eBike 5:15 total minus 1:58 for the down makes the entire climb 3:17
So total Climb speed is 3x faster.

Climb - Long Section segment (Single track with one small down section)
View attachment 1966037
Right about double the speed for this segment of the climb

Climb - Short Section Segment
View attachment 1966038
This segment is double track, wide open with a few sweeping turns. It was at this point I realized I could up-shift the bike into a harder gear to go even faster with that motor doing all the work for me. 13mph vs 3.5mph - That is 4xfaster then when I pedal.

To show I was not sand bagging it, here are my averages on that section from last year:
View attachment 1966039

I am very much an average climber, a bit overweight and all my strava times uphill are very middle of the leaderboards for all my climbs.


Again, I am not making a claim this is bad or good, I think that is a question for each and every land manager to decide for the trails they manage.


What I am asking is to stop trying to hide the fact that eBikes can hit speeds of 14mph on a climb and faster if one is really pushing it to the 20mph cut off.

Anyone wanna setup a go-fund me account? I think I need one.

Thank you, e-bikes have their place but people really need to stop the whole fitness aspect. Skill level I will give you because they haven't figured out a e-skill button yet.

 

They are only slightly faster than pro mountainbikers are but they are easily 2x as fast as a regular Joe Schmoe. I mean there are tons of youtubes videos with Ebikers vs pros and the pros get decimated why would you not think they are fast. Thankfully by me we have many trails, some are for ebikes and some are not, and I ride them both on a regular bike.

I will say this and this is just anecdotal the ebikers are more commonly willing to say something rude or something snarky when passing than a regular biker. But that could just be where I am an the bikers that exist here.

I honestly think ebikers are missing out on a prime service though, I would be willing to throw $5 at one for a tow on my 4th or 5th run up a mountain. So ebikers really should be offering shuttle rides for regular bikers so sad they are not doing this yet.

 

I got run off the trail by a LBS shop owner, NICA coach that rides a cannondale. Does that mean all cannondale riders are a-holes? Yes, yes it does.

 

ok breath for a second, relax. Now reread the post.... New rider on e-bike causes crashes due to thinking he fast. Question, do a holes on regular bike push people off of trail yes, but give that a hole a motor and a level of cockyness to push people off the trail because he is so freaking fast these new riders become problems. I feel the same thing about the new dentist riding a sworks epic being a complete tool to every one who isn't as fast as he is.

 

Over the years there has been a lot of back and forth arguing about just how fast a Class 1 eBike can go and whether or not they are twice as fast as pedal bikes.

I have ridden street based eBikes in the past and was blown away by how quick they are.

Yesterday I finally had the chance to take a Specialized Levo on a lap of a section of trail I have ridden dozens of times over the years on my pedal bike.
This is something I have wanted to do for a number of years now, and finally had the opportunity.

I did the loop first on my pedal bike. I was riding average speeds, not trying to break any records and was very winded and breathing heavily when I got back to the top of the climb. I might have been able to push myself a little bit harder, but that would not have changed the results much.

After a small break I took the Levo on the same loop.

The results are in, Class 1 Pedelec Bikes are super fast, more than twice as fast when climbing.

Please note - I am not saying this is a good or bad thing. I am not saying this can impact every single trail. This is simply a comment about the speed of eBikes. I have been a member on this site for nearly 2 decades now and have been moderating for at least 10 years and the common line from many eBikers is they are only slightly faster.... that is just not true. Can we stop denying it?

Here is the strava data to back my statements up:

Full Loop:
View attachment 1966035
So just over twice as fast for the full loop, this loop starts and ends at a high point, so the decent is roughly equal the climb in elevation. The decent is single track, the climb is a combo of single track and double track, but mostly double track.

Downhill only:
View attachment 1966036
I was not expecting any difference here, there is no reason the eBike should be faster on a decent that requires almost no pedaling.

There is no segment for the entire climb from the bottom to the top. I can probably create one if anyone cares to see that section. But if we just do some quick math;
Pedal Bike 11:06 total minus 1:55 for the down makes the entire climb 9:11
eBike 5:15 total minus 1:58 for the down makes the entire climb 3:17
So total Climb speed is 3x faster.

Climb - Long Section segment (Single track with one small down section)
View attachment 1966037
Right about double the speed for this segment of the climb

Climb - Short Section Segment
View attachment 1966038
This segment is double track, wide open with a few sweeping turns. It was at this point I realized I could up-shift the bike into a harder gear to go even faster with that motor doing all the work for me. 13mph vs 3.5mph - That is 4xfaster then when I pedal.

To show I was not sand bagging it, here are my averages on that section from last year:
View attachment 1966039

I am very much an average climber, a bit overweight and all my strava times uphill are very middle of the leaderboards for all my climbs.


Again, I am not making a claim this is bad or good, I think that is a question for each and every land manager to decide for the trails they manage.


What I am asking is to stop trying to hide the fact that eBikes can hit speeds of 14mph on a climb and faster if one is really pushing it to the 20mph cut off.

Anyone wanna setup a go-fund me account? I think I need one.

No one goes for a 5 minute ride. And some Cat 1 racers could easily put up those same times/speeds for some period of time.

Yes, they are faster - physics and all. But having spent many hours on both (most on regular bikes), the real world difference on average (on reasonably technical trails) is about 20-25% or so, which is roughly how much faster most Cat1/Pro riders are than me on human power.

We should therefore ban Cat1/Pro riders from trails.

 

[...]

We should therefore ban Cat1/Pro riders from trails.

Bush league strawman attempt. Must not be an attorney.