Phil Kmetz did a pretty good video showing a couple mistakes that might have something to with your problem. Slow connection for me now, but you can search for it like: "How to manual" or that sort of thing, it's not hard to find.

 

Pretty solid video with good pointers, here it is:

 

I've never really been good at it, and especially not really riding a bike for years it is even more difficult meow.
But I think it is more of pulling up with your arms, while finding the happy median of how much of your weight to shift back.

 

It's the opposite. Manual is about pushing the bike out in front of you, sensation similar to threshold breaking but further back and less pedal stomping. You'd roll/twist the grip a bit

There's no pulling, none.

 

I'm in the process of learning as well. I've been able to hold a manual for about 1-2 seconds so far after a little practice. One thing I did was I've been practicing on grass. Then the times I've not gotten my feet off I've landed on the grass/dirt.

 

In my mind, I push the bike forward, and stand up on the pedals. The change in body geometry pulls the front end up, and the rear wheel follows as the bike rotates when I push down on the bar.

That's how I clear those 4" sticks. Still too big for the real stuff.

 

Are your arms locked out? I found when my arms were not locked I was using my arms to pull up. Granted I'm in the beginner stages of learning how to manual

 

Oh yes, ^this. I locked my arms as well as staying fix on lower body from hip down(my knee bends stay at fix angle) til I got better at it. Eliminate or reduce moving parts helps a lot. Now I can do whatever and seems to be able to produce a decent manual. Though I wish I can hold a sustained one across the parking lot but not anytime soon:0

 

No need to get the front wheel very high at all.
Less arms more hips.

Learn from the bear:

 

No need to get the front wheel very high at all.
Less arms more hips.

Learn from the bear

The bear is a big guy on a tiny BMX bike. This does show the importance of rider size and frame geometry quite clearly though. He can balance that bike just a few inches off the ground because he can easily get way behind the rear wheel. Not so easy on a mountain bike, got to get the wheel up much, much higher.

I've just figured out how to do this (in a limited way, at least): It's shifting your weight back that raises the front wheel - it comes up *as* you push with your feet, not before.

It's not at all about arms. If you are getting sore elbows, I would guess that you are just throwing your upper body back. The only thing your arms should be doing is pushing (until the front wheel is right up, then they just push out and hold on).

It feels to me like I'm pushing the bike as hard as I can into the ground with my legs, and just when I'm pressing hardest, I sweep the bike forwards with arms and legs, like I'm trying to wipe my @rse with the saddle. (Having the saddle *right* down is essential).

I found it helpful to concentrate on making the 'L'shape like in this video:

...
It's not easy to get the right muscles to do the right thing at the right time, though. Try working through it with your bike in a stand or something, so you get the feel of the movement. When it's right, it is ridiculously smooth and effortless, but I can't achieve that on demand yet.

I have been practicing that "L-shaped" thing for the past 6 months. Watched the first part of that video hundreds of times. Shifting my weight doesn't get the wheel up more than a few inches, even if I push back with all my strength. Pushing down with my feet pushes the bike down and me up. Perhaps a bike with "new geometry" would respond differently.

 

Here's what helped me. Our club does a Freeride classs, and they use a static hold so you can really feel the balance point for a manual. Once you feel this, it becomes so much easier to understand where you need your weight to be.

 

Do you have your seat all the way down? One thing most the videos show, and you can see in the pics above, is that your weight needs to be BEHIND the rear axle. Way back there and low enough to buzz your butt on the rear tire.

 

So what do you do if you are too short to get back that far?

(and yes, my seat is ALL the way down)

 

My seat is much higher than in the video. I guess I'll have to drop it a bit to try to get the hang of this

 

I think in the practical application of the manual isn't really to wheelie. It's a much different feeling (not mechanically) when you manual down a rock or a steep section. I don't ride a dropper and a lot of people don't. I think it's a good skill to have being able to work around your seatpost and you're not relying on a $300 piece of gear to do it. I say if you want to get the hang of a manual, go down a rock roller. If you're weight isn't back enough, you're gonna stuff your front. Sink or swim


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My problem is that with my seat up at XC level, when I get my weight back behind the seat, when moving back to normal position, I hang the crotch of my shorts on the saddle.

 

Dropper post helps... But you don't "need" it.

 

How much strength do you think is really required to lift up a front wheel? We're only talking a few pounds here. Strength really doesn't play into this, it's about timing and balance. I see 60 lb kids wheelie 30 lb bikes all the time.

 

How much strength do you think is really required to lift up a front wheel?

When I'm on the bike?

Enough to totally bottom out the front fork and at the same time throw my weight back with enough force to get the wheel up about two feet, so that it becomes possible to do the hip thing.

Strength really doesn't play into this, it's about timing and balance.

How does balance come into play if I can't even get near the balance point (wheel over 2 feet up (probably closer to 3 since its downhill)?

Pushing on the pedals pushes the bike down, no matter when I do it. This could be due to frame geometry.

I see 60 lb kids wheelie 30 lb bikes all the time.

BMX or DJ bikes? Very different frame geometry allowing them to get their weight way back.

 

You can't yourself no matter how strong you are. No one can. Manuals are a position/balance/timing thing, not a strength thing. Why do you need to totally bottom your fork out (which is also a weight shift, not a strength move).

If you're convinced that your bike is what's keeping you from learning, why don't you buy/borrow a cheap BMX bike? I think you'll be surprised how difficult it is even with that, certainly won't be 'easy' all of a sudden, I can attest to that.

Also, if you're learning on a hill that drops 12" in the length of a bike, you need to find somewhere a lot flatter. Personally, I would think you should learn to wheelie on an UPHILL first. Learning on a downhill starts you out at a positional disadvantage right off the bat as far as getting the front wheel up.

 

You can't yourself no matter how strong you are. No one can.

can't ???? yourself
Something is missing from this sentence.

Manuals are a position/balance/timing thing, not a strength thing. Why do you need to totally bottom your fork out (which is also a weight shift, not a strength move).

Getting my weight back as far as I can reach only unweights the front wheel by 7 pounds on level ground, even less on a downslope. Anything more than that is dependent on the force with which I throw my weight back.

If you're convinced that your bike is what's keeping you from learning, why don't you buy/borrow a cheap BMX bike? I think you'll be surprised how difficult it is even with that, certainly won't be 'easy' all of a sudden, I can attest to that.

Would have to buy. Would have the advantage that the hip positions being recommended here would at least be possible on a bike like that. Disadvantages are that what I did on a BMX bike would not carry over to a mountain bike as the position recommended is not possible for me on a mountain bike, and a BMX bike would not be useful for anything else.

Also, if you're learning on a hill that drops 12" in the length of a bike, you need to find somewhere a lot flatter.

It isn't that steep where I practice. More like 5".

Personally, I would think you should learn to wheelie on an UPHILL first. Learning on a downhill starts you out at a positional disadvantage right off the bat as far as getting the front wheel up.

Doing that too. Wheelies up the slope, manuals down.

l get the wheel up a bit more on a wheelie, but only if I am moving at the slowest possible speed and mash the pedal as hard as I can while throwing my weight back as hard as I can and get the timing just right. Then it comes up almost a foot for about 3/4 of a second before dropping back down again.

 

Practice on a very slight uphill is where I finally got the feel for it. Contrary to what andytiedye thinks, I can barely do them at all. I just understand the concept really well.

 

Easy way to figure out how far back you need to be in order to get the front wheel up at certain height is to stand next to the bike, whichever side is fine. Get into an attack position, or stand up next to the handlebar( both works well) with the knees bent and one foot in front another just like you'd positioned it with the pedals, elbows bend 90*. Keep your feet plant then push the handlebar extending your arms to almost straight. You should feel the pressure on the wrapping fingers mainly middle and ring finger.

The front would come up automatically. You'd feel the correct sensation of a proper manual execution. Keep low, butt back your shoulder should be almost touching your ears. It would be a good habit forming if you'd keep your rear break cover or better yet, lightly dragged. This is a crucial move as it would help keeping the wheel from coming too high, the harder you squeeze the lever the faster your front would come down.

Here's the text from the master himself. I took several clinics with him and probably have practiced manual session at the exact spot at Alison canyon near the bottom of cholla trails.

 

Straightening my legs for position #2 pushes my butt up and the bike down.

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Straightening my legs for position #2 pushes my butt up and the bike down.

OK, so that is a problem. (It sounds like you're doing what's described at ~1:59 in that GMBN video - 'down and back up', rather than down and back).

#2 should look like the picture on page 2 of that MBA article above with the big green tick (checkmark) on it. The straighter you can get your legs WITHOUT raising your butt, the further back your butt will be.

You need to find a way to keep your butt down as you go from #1 to #2. It's your butt (and centre of gravity) going backwards that shoots the bike out forwards and up (once your arms lock out - don't think about pushing with your arms, your legs need to do the work).

 

If you're doing things as hard as you can, you're not doing it right. It should take very little effort and strength. Its a balance thing, not strength! The jerking full strength motion will just blow out your arms, its almost the opposite of what you need to be doing.

 

It is key to understand the technique of pushing the bars forward and how that raises the front, etc.

 

I am pushing the bars forward. That raises the front a few inches, no more,

 

I recommend getting a coach, maybe ask someone as your lbs. Or, like a previous poster mentioned, record yourself trying to manual then post it here.
It sounds like you're cutting the corner of the "L" shape your hips should make (referencing the GMBN video here).
With your saddle dropped all the way, throw your hips straight down, then straight back. Buzz your butt on the rear tire so you know you're low enough.
If you've ever done a wheelie, then kicked your bike way out in front of you, while ejecting (looping out) of the back of the bike, putting your feet on the ground, THAT'S what folks are talking about pushing with your feet. Not pushing down, pushing the rear of the bike forward.
I admit I'm not good at manuals, but I understand the mechanics of it.

 

I recommend getting a coach, maybe ask someone as your lbs. Or, like a previous poster mentioned, record yourself trying to manual then post it here.
It sounds like you're cutting the corner of the "L" shape your hips should make (referencing the GMBN video here).

I did video it, it really Is L-shaped, but it wouldn't be if I push much with my legs. That mostly pushes my ass up & the bike down. Can't get back far enough to push forward much.

With your saddle dropped all the way, throw your hips straight down, then straight back. Buzz your butt on the rear tire so you know you're low enough.

Doing that. Gets the front wheel up about 4".

If you've ever done a wheelie, then kicked your bike way out in front of you, while ejecting (looping out) of the back of the bike, putting your feet on the ground.

Not able to loop out doing a wheelie. I get the front wheel up about 10-12" if I start at the slowest possible speed and get the timing just right.

 

Are you able to post the video you took of yourself trying? That's probably the best way to receive proper advice.

 

Not able to loop out doing a wheelie. I get the front wheel up about 10-12" if I start at the slowest possible speed and get the timing just right.

If you're not able to wheelie, at least several pedal strokes worth, I seriously doubt you'll be able to manual. Learn to wheelie first.
You can't loop out wheelie-ing?
I ask this in all seriousness, and you don't have to answer, just think about it: are you afraid of falling off the back of the bike and you are blocking yourself from committing?
When I just started out skateboarding I would do this with kickflips.

 

are you afraid of falling off the back of the bike and you are blocking yourself from committing?

Good point.
You have to learn where the the point of no return is well, and there's only one way to do that - get off the back a few thousand times. If you don't trust your reactions enough to trust yourself to walk away from it (at least mostly), practice looping the bike out on purpose from a standstill; just a hard pedal stroke and a foot down basically and get comfortable with the motion. Build a little muscle memory.

 

l have tried to do that many times. I don't generate enough torque to loop out, even at the slowest possible speed, unless going up a VERY steep hill, and I would not want to practice this there. (On such hills I always have a couple of fingers on the rear brake).

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If you've got your mind set on learning manuals and you're convinced you've got the wrong tool for the job, get a better tool.

 

At the end of the day, manuals and wheelies are like getting airtime. They are not for everyone, the latter is definitely true with me, I'm like a dead sailor in the air no matter how many time I try to fly, I just don't have it. If I accidentally catch some airtime I'd twist the handlebar in a fashionable way but never intentional.

A friend who took the clinic with me still at the beginner's stage as he knows the mechanics of the move but only give half the effort every time out of fear, it truly not for him. I told him to stop practicing for a few weeks then give it up altogether. Hope it's not your case.

 

A friend who took the clinic with me still at the beginner's stage as he knows the mechanics of the move but only give half the effort every time out of fear

Did he tell you that, or did you conclude that he wasn't really trying based on the result?