[Dougal]

I am pretty light at ~67kg and found the compression damping to be excessive (mine had the 4, 19 x 0.2 shim stack). After trying numerous combinations I ended up running 2.5wt fork oil with a 17x0.15 speed shim, a 11x0.1 spacer shim (to reduce platform shim preload) and a single 19x0.2 platform shim. The platform threshold with the needle closed is around 145N (14kg) which is ample for seated climbing. I have been running it 2-3 clicks from closed for climbing and descending and it works well. running 70psi in the spring and recommended damper oil height (87mm?)

Which brand of oil were you running? The factory Maxima 85-150 is labelled 5wt but matches other brands 2.5wt.
Anything 14-16 cSt @40C is essentially stock. There is no benefit to going thicker on a damper like this that can be easily revalved. A few brands make thinner, but that's getting into diminishing returns.

 

[minisman]

No issues with running just one. Only way to know if it's firm enough is to try it. After you do a few changes, you will get fast enough that you can do it in 15 minutes, so changing will be fast and easy to try new things.

Keep in mind the thickness of the shims is very important, not just the diameter. Make sure you know the thickness of the shims you are using.

My verniers are about 30 years old, and dont do measurements that small/accurate.

Thickness is what ever is standard with the Marvel pro when they put 4x platform shims????
I wonder why Manitou added 4 platforms for the marvel pro, especially when everyone on here feels 2 platforms is too harsh, don't they seem customer feedback?

 

[mullen119]

My verniers are about 30 years old, and dont do measurements that small/accurate.

Thickness is what ever is standard with the Marvel pro when they put 4x platform shims????
I wonder why Manitou added 4 platforms for the marvel pro, especially when everyone on here feels 2 platforms is too harsh, don't they seem customer feedback?

Hard to say. A single .2mm thick shim has the same relative stiffness as 8 shims .1mm thick. A 1.5mm thick is the equivalent of.a little over 3 shims .1mm thick.

This means the stock 2 shim stack you refer to uses .2mm shims has a relative stiffness of 16 (8 x 2)

If your 4 shims are .15mm thick instead of .2mm, then your stock stack would have an overall thickness of 12 which is less stiff overall than the old XC stack.

Without knowing your shims thickness for sure, I'm just guessing, but I'm thinking that Manitou did adress the overly stiff stack, just not quite enough. They also don't want to lose the firm lockout out on the XC forks. It's what some people want.

 

[sine waiver]

Which brand of oil were you running? The factory Maxima 85-150 is labelled 5wt but matches other brands 2.5wt.
Anything 14-16 cSt @40C is essentially stock. There is no benefit to going thicker on a damper like this that can be easily revalved. A few brands make thinner, but that's getting into diminishing returns.

I went with motorex 2.5 race oil, firstly because I could get locally easily but it also has a higher VI than the maxima. So over the recent winter (when I was trying different setups) here, where temperatures are going to average <10C, the maxima is 62cst and the motorex 2.5 is 42cst , the motorex gives a noticable decrease in damping (though not so much the threshold force, since that is largely governed by the platform shim stiffness-which is good since you can decouple the threshold from the velocity damping to some extent by changing the oil viscosity).
I guess in summer, say 30-40C, the standard maxima and 2.5 motorex are probably close enough to be indistinguishable.

 

[sine waiver]

My verniers are about 30 years old, and dont do measurements that small/accurate.

Thickness is what ever is standard with the Marvel pro when they put 4x platform shims????
I wonder why Manitou added 4 platforms for the marvel pro, especially when everyone on here feels 2 platforms is too harsh, don't they seem customer feedback?

Lockout, which is effectively what the 4x 19x0.2 shims provides with the needle closed, is likely to be seen by Manitou marketing as a necessary feature for xc forks. So they tell engineering to make it happen?

 

[minisman]

Hard to say. A single .2mm thick shim has the same relative stiffness as 8 shims .1mm thick. A 1.5mm thick is the equivalent of.a little over 3 shims .1mm thick.

This means the stock 2 shim stack you refer to uses .2mm shims has a relative stiffness of 16 (8 x 2)

If your 4 shims are .15mm thick instead of .2mm, then your stock stack would have an overall thickness of 12 which is less stiff overall than the old XC stack.

Without knowing your shims thickness for sure, I'm just guessing, but I'm thinking that Manitou did adress the overly stiff stack, just not quite enough. They also don't want to lose the firm lockout out on the XC forks. It's what some people want.

Mullens,
I still need to buy a new set of higher quality digital verniers to confirm. But I my gut feeling is you are correct and that manitou may have switched to 4x .15mm.

The reason I say this, is becuase I did some more testing, I removed a 2nd shim, so now i have 2x platfrom shims (of what ever thickness they are). I took it for a very hard rocky/ rooty/ climby ride. It felt great(but not really any different to 3 shims in the open 5 most open ABS+ settings), but the abs+ knob had no affect and no lockout any more, so it was definitly under valved.

So I will add the 3rd shim back, as I liked that and i still had a proper platform.

 

[sine waiver]

Mullens,
I still need to buy a new set of higher quality digital verniers to confirm. But I my gut feeling is you are correct and that manitou may have switched to 4x .15mm.

The reason I say this, is becuase I did some more testing, I removed a 2nd shim, so now i have 2x platfrom shims (of what ever thickness they are). I took it for a very hard rocky/ rooty/ climby ride. It felt great(but not really any different to 3 shims in the open 5 most open ABS+ settings), but the abs+ knob had no affect and no lockout any more, so it was definitly under valved.

So I will add the 3rd shim back, as I liked that and i still had a proper platform.

When did you buy the forks? My 2015 model definitely had 4 x 19 x0.2

 

[minisman]

When did you buy the forks? My 2015 model definitely had 4 x 19 x0.2

Only a few months ago. It was advertised at 2016 model.
So with yours what have you done? Do you still get lockout? Or close to it?

 

[sine waiver]

Only a few months ago. It was advertised at 2016 model.
So with yours what have you done? Do you still get lockout? Or close to it?

I have ended up with 17x0.15, 11x0.1 x 19x0.2
No lockout anymore, just ~14kg threshold ( which is ample to stop any bob during seated pedalling). but in my view, you can't achieve a good shim stack tune and still have a lockout with the abs+ damper. There is a reason Fox use a multi circuit compression circuit in the fit 4, to allow a well tuned shim stack for general riding as well as a lockout.

 

[minisman]

Thats interesting you say that, because in my opinion Fox compression damping is useless and feels dead, but then again the latest model fox stuff i have is 2013 evo CTD... reknowned as rubbish.
I personally feel that the piston porting in the minute pro with all combos of shims i have tried is better than the Fox forks I have owned.

Also I switched my shims back to 3 x19mm, and I tried my rusty old verniers on them again. they are definitly more than .1mm and less than .2mm thick. and I measured all 3 stacked together to be a bit over .4mm so I am thinking they are .15mm.

So as mullens said the old XC stack of 2x .2mm thick had a stiffness of .16, and the recommendation was to go back to 1 shim and being a stiffeness on 8. My original stack of 4x .15mm had a stiffness of 13.5 ( less than old XC stack) going to 2 x .15mm was too soft, it was stiffness of 6. so 3x .15mm is a stiffness of about 10.

3 shims will have to do until i buy some more shims of other diameters. I rode it yesterday arvo with 3 and its not too bad, but could improve a bit.

 

[minisman]

Well guys,
After a month or so of riding my Rocky with the Marvel pros 'borrowed' from my hard tail, and Fox not being very useful with repairing my other forks I have bought another set of Marvel pros
In the meantime I bought digital calipers and about $30 worth of shims from a motorbike suspension shop, however they didn't sell 17.5 OD, i had to buy 17mm OD shims( I wonder how much that will affect it??).
So last night, I popped open the brand new and unused Marvel pro, measured everything up and set a shim stack to test. I can confirm that with both 2016 Marvel pros the standard shim stack is 11*0.50 clamp, 4x 19*0.20 platform. (NOT 19x0.15 like i had guessed)
On my other fork I was reasonably happy with running 11*0.50, 3x 19*0.20 (CV-11411-07) at about 3 clicks from Max, however I felt I wanted something with a little less platform and a little bit more linear. I actually considered the Jump stack, but I wanted that little bit more platform for XC, as I said before 2x 19*0.20 was not enough platform for me.
So after looking at the graph at top of page 12 of the tuning manual seeing the difference between adding a 17.5*0.15 and 17.5*0.20 I decided I'd put a 17*0.15 next to piston.
So my stack ended up being 11*0.50, 3x 19*0.20, 17*.15.
I am going to hit up my local XC track this afternoon for about an hour or 2. I know the fork will need bedding in. (It has that horrible topping out thud that happened on my other fork, which tricked me into running too much rebound)
I can't wait!!!!

Also I would love to increase travel to 110 or 120mm, but I dont feel like stripping it and loosing all that brand new unused oil just yet.

I forgot, for the record I got the kitchen scales out and checked some weights.
The old 2013 Fox Float CTD 29er 100mm with 15mm axle installed and tapered steerer cut to 195mm weighed 1710g
The New 2016 Marvel pro 29er 100mm with 15mm axle installed, tapered steerer uncut, 1780g, and cut to 188mm 1752g.

So very minor weight penalty over the fox... and website spec sheets are wrong (as usual)

 

[minisman]

So a bit of an update on my marvel pro, I have done quite a bit of testing... probably not consistent with my methods, and terrible with my record keeping but here is a bit of a run down.

So before buying shims my best set up was: 10.5x0.5, 3x 19x0.2 70psi - good platform, still had LO, railed corners, sat too low in stroke unless add more air, then lost small bump.
tried 10.5x0.5, 17x0.2, 3x 19x0.2, 17x 0.15 - better mid support, platform lacking, still had LO
tried 10.5x0.5, 3x 19x0.2, 17x 0.2 - no lockout, didn't even ride it
tried 10.5x0.5, 3x 19x0.2, 17x 0.15 -platform good, a little lacking, good for majority of stroke, needed a little more big hit resistence.
tried (jump stack with thinner velocity shim)
10.5x0.5, 17x0.15 4x 19x0.2, 17x 0.15 - better support whole way, but a bit dead/ wooden feeling, and had to drop psi- classic overdamped undersprung)

So its obvious I like a lot of platform shims, but I also want them to fully blow off before speed shims come into play... So I am thinking i need a 2 stage stack. but everyone that tried that has said they ended up with going for a straight linear stack... which doesn't sound like my sort of thing at all!

Other wise I think my best bet is 3x platforms, 1x .15 speed shim and then playing with the spring side a little to get me higher in stroke.... Either adding some grease/oil to reduce volume, or going to 120mm travel so its sitting at the right height in the midstroke and reduces bottoming.

Any hints on air spring mods? also how far do I have to go stripping the fork to change travel spacers?

 

[Mikros]

Hi guys,

Just finished playing with my 2016 Marvel Pro. I bought it as 100mm for my Epic to replace SID with Brain. I recently bought another bike (BH Lynx) that has 120mm Fox Float CTD 32 fitted. I believe that when I tune the damper on Marvel I will end up with better and lighter fork. Conversion to 120mm was straightforward, then I removed the damper to check which variant is fitted.

As expected, it was XC tuned with stack of 4 shims 19 (OD) x 8 (ID). No idea about thickness of the shims (battery in my calipers gone dead...). Anyway, once I get different shims I'l go with trail or linear tune.

One thing I could not figure out is how to fit the damper back in. It will slide in just about half way, then it just will not budge. I didn't want to apply brutal force and decided to ask here. Is there some sort of trick? Keep wiggling from side to side and pushing down?

Any reply would be much appreciated.

Cheers.

 

[sine waiver]

Hi guys,

Just finished playing with my 2016 Marvel Pro. I bought it as 100mm for my Epic to replace SID with Brain. I recently bought another bike (BH Lynx) that has 120mm Fox Float CTD 32 fitted. I believe that when I tune the damper on Marvel I will end up with better and lighter fork. Conversion to 120mm was straightforward, then I removed the damper to check which variant is fitted.

As expected, it was XC tuned with stack of 4 shims 19 (OD) x 8 (ID). No idea about thickness of the shims (battery in my calipers gone dead...). Anyway, once I get different shims I'l go with trail or linear tune.

One thing I could not figure out is how to fit the damper back in. It will slide in just about half way, then it just will not budge. I didn't want to apply brutal force and decided to ask here. Is there some sort of trick? Keep wiggling from side to side and pushing down?

Any reply would be much appreciated.

Cheers.

Make sure the compression damper adjuster is in the open position, in the closed position with the STD shims it takes a lot to force oil past the preloaded stack. Might be the problem.??

 

[Mikros]

Let me check after work - I'm sure I turned the adjuster to one of the stop positions,

but it is quite possible I've locked it fully rather than opened it.

Thanks for a hint, should've thought about it rather than swearing like a sailor.

 

[minisman]

Make sure the compression damper adjuster is in the open position, in the closed position with the STD shims it takes a lot to force oil past the preloaded stack. Might be the problem.??

Yep turn it all the way forwards or anti clockwise.
Also do yourself a big favour and take either 1 or 2 of the 19mm shims out. I have fiddled around a lot and I still like 3x19mm shims, and 2 clicks from lockout

 

[Mikros]

Yep turn it all the way forwards or anti clockwise.
Also do yourself a big favour and take either 1 or 2 of the 19mm shims out. I have fiddled around a lot and I still like 3x19mm shims, and 2 clicks from lockout

Mystery solved, I've had a brainfart - thinking of opening the damper, I turned it fully clocwise to locked. Every fork I've ever touched opens up anticlockwise even RS SID which has a rebound dial on top of right leg (fast rebound anticlockwise). Oh well...

I plan to remove 2 platform shims first and see how it feels, then try with 3 shims. I really wanted to add 17.5/0.2 speed shim to either 1 or 2 platforms, but I'm having enormous difficulties to find it anywhere in Oz. Manitou tuning kit disappeared from market as well. May end up ordering set of 17.5mm from US (there's a link somewhere here), but it is not the cheapest option.

What I'm after most of all, is small bump/trail chatter compliance to ease the pain from my seriously injured shoulder which haunts me from my dirt bike days. Pedal bob is not much of a concern but brake dive is not much fun. I'd like to find some compromise.

At the moment the my Fox CTD is mostly set in downhill mode even for general trail ridig, so there is my bias towards a linear mode rather than strong platform. Its not bad, but I really hope I can better it with Marvel. If I only had the shims to play with that is. :-(

Thank you guys for your prompt replies. Much appreciated.

 

[rupps5]

This is the shim stack that i have liked the best for xc racing

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

 

[minisman]

Mikros,
With regards to buying shims in OZ, I bought mine from Tecnik Motorsports online, however had to buy bags of 10. They only had 17mm ,not 17.5mm, somone else said the difference is barely noticeable, so thats what I went with. Ended up buying about $30 worth in the end.

So on that note, I have spare 17x 0.2 and 17x 0.15 and I also bought some 10 x.25 to try to use as clamp shims... but havent tried it yet.

If you like I can send you 2 or 3 of each $5 plus postage??? PM me your postage details if you are keen?

 

[minisman]

This is the shim stack that i have liked the best for xc racing

Thats a massive stack... can you identify what it is actually doing?? and explain it to me?