[Ole]

Ok, so it doesn't have a falling rate at the middle third of the travel, that's very good! What about the first 3rd? If you lift the rear wheel 4 inches off the ground and let go. If the wheel bounces, it has a firm spring rate at the start, causing stinkbug'ing compared to a coil. This is very important when riding with the seat up. (Not the toilet seat, the bike seat!)


Ole.

 

[TNC]

I understand what you mean by the "stinkbug" term, but no, I don't detect that level of "riding high" in its travel. Yeah, as JMH pointed out, this shock doesn't have that traditional "soft middle" sensation. I'm not sure how they accomplished this. It's certainly not from the piggyback pressure, as I run pretty much the minimum pressure here. For me this is the beauty and magic of this shock. There's no wallowing or mushy pedaling, but also there's no harshness either. I'd love to know the technical means by which they achieved this balance in an air shock.

 

[JMH]

No, if you drop the rear end of my bike it bounces right back up and doesn't even move the shock, which seems pretty typical of ANY air shock IMO.

Honestly the only bikes that I have ever seen do that are big travel bikes with heavy rear ends and DH tires. I drop the back end on my 7point from up to 12" and it stays stuck to the ground.

But I am not really looking for the same 75mm of plush sag on my 140mm bike, you know? That's what the big bikes are for. It's way more important that I have 100-110mm of good, active travel left when I am running 30% sag and actually riding. :thumbsup:

Can't wait to try it out.

JMH

Ok, so it doesn't have a falling rate at the middle third of the travel, that's very good! What about the first 3rd? If you lift the rear wheel 4 inches off the ground and let go. If the wheel bounces, it has a firm spring rate at the start, causing stinkbug'ing compared to a coil. This is very important when riding with the seat up. (Not the toilet seat, the bike seat!)

Ole.

 

[OneBikeGuy]

wow, that's a new design!

Thanks for posting the pic.

 

[TNC]

Those who have read any of my posts from the start on this Evolver will note that I've consistently said this shock does not feel "normal" without a rider aboard. Frankly it scared the crap out of me the first time I put it on and pushed down on the saddle and did the "elbow push" on the saddle to compress the suspension. It felt like poo. I let so much air out of it to get that cushy feel, that when you set on it, it just about bottomed out. Initially I thought the thing was buggered or something. Anyway, once I got aboard and actually rode the thing, the bike felt totally different...like a good working rear suspension. When you get off and push the saddle down by hand again, it still feels like poo. I've had this shock for several months now, and it has been excellent...but it still feels like poo when you get off and try to compress the rear shock. I don't get it...don't understand it. There's some strange funkiness going on in there...but it works.

So Ole...I don't think the static "bounce" test will mean anything with this shock.

 

[rm_racer]

since you have a couple Bullits TNC, would this shock work well? i am trying to work out what shock i should order my new Bullit frame with (though it will be a ways off before i do make the purchase). i would like an air shock if i can get one that does not wallow like my Float R on my Jamis, this sounds like it is it. though you have said the DHX air is a good match for the Bullit. i kinda like to get info early to give me more decision-making time.

 

[TNC]

I don't know rm...the ISX-6 has no platform, and the Bullit usually responds well to shocks with platforms...but it's not an absolute. I have a 4-Way Air on one of my Bullits, so I could swap out those oddball sized Manitou eyelet spacers...but I'm too lazy...LOL! The ISX-6 has such good mid-stroke support for an air shock that I doubt it would be a bobomatic on the Bullit.

 

[Ole]

Those who have read any of my posts from the start on this Evolver will note that I've consistently said this shock does not feel "normal" without a rider aboard. Frankly it scared the crap out of me the first time I put it on and pushed down on the saddle and did the "elbow push" on the saddle to compress the suspension. It felt like poo. I let so much air out of it to get that cushy feel, that when you set on it, it just about bottomed out. Initially I thought the thing was buggered or something. Anyway, once I got aboard and actually rode the thing, the bike felt totally different...like a good working rear suspension. When you get off and push the saddle down by hand again, it still feels like poo. I've had this shock for several months now, and it has been excellent...but it still feels like poo when you get off and try to compress the rear shock. I don't get it...don't understand it. There's some strange funkiness going on in there...but it works.

So Ole...I don't think the static "bounce" test will mean anything with this shock.

So, if there's no funky SPV valving keeping the shock from moving, what's keeping the shock from activating on small inputs? All air shocks I've tried have a degree of preload on the overall spring rate, which will increase stinkbugging and increase sagging while climbing, compared to a coil shock. This is usually because of a mis-matched coil or elastomer negative spring, or an air spring with too low volume (Fox).

In my experience, if it doesn't feel like a coil when pushing down on it in the shop, it won't feel like a coil on the trail. With a little experience, one can also push on the seat in the shop, and feel if the rebound shim is wrong for the spring rate used.

Ole.

 

[TNC]

Ole, even on my SPV or platform air shocks, there is that relatively plush feel when you do the static "push" test on the saddle with your elbow. But as you well know, you do get that mid-stroke section of almost too soft...and it is too soft on a DHXA...compression action. This shock is exactly the opposite. It feels like it will be harsh, but that totally disappears when you are actually on the bike. The whole point about this discussion is that you can't really compare how this shock feels or performs to the field of other air shocks that have been available, and since we actually ride our bikes rather that run down the trail beside them while pushing on the saddle with our elbows, this is a non-issue...LOL! Ole, I know what you're trying to quantify with your question, and it's a reasonable question. I'm just saying that somehow Manitou has designed a damping and air package that feels strangely odd at rest, but once any amount of weight and suspension action is introduced, the shock's design apparently does exactly what it's supposed to, without the traditional air shock bugaboos. I'm guessing that if it felt like a traditional air shock under static testing, that it would probably perform like a traditional air shock with its soft mid-stroke and other issues, so what would have been gained?

 

[Ronnie]

TNC and Ole, I've been following your discussion with much interest as I have one of them and would like to understand how it works. I'm fairly technically inclined but probably do not have the same technical knowledge as TNC, or the opportunity to play around with as much stuff as him. I just wanted to add my enthusiasm for this shock.

I had a 4-Way Swinger on my Intense 5point5 since 2004 and got tired of the tendency of the back of the bike to buck me when hitting an obstacle. It was like the initial refusal of the SPV to open, even if it would open a fraction of a second later, it was too late. At that stage I was using minimum SPV pressure of 50psi.

While looking at the Intense photos from Interbike, I noticed that most of the frames on display had an Evolver fitted. I phoned Manitou and was told that it was available shim damped or with SPV. On a whim I ordered one because I wanted a non-SPV/platform shock. With the Swinger while cruising on level ground I always noticed a slight movement of the shock when looking down, perhaps a few millimeters, which went away when climbing with some power. I guess that was due to the VPP. With the Evolver fitted and no SPV, it does not bob with light pedaling on level ground. Go figure! All I can add is that anything I'm capable of riding over, rock gardens, roots and small logs, I can just plow into and this shock just soaks it up. It reacts instantaneously.

TNC, you mentioned earlier that you could not set it up with sag. I simply did it the normal way without any issue. That may be due to me being a lot heavier than you. I just did it as Intense are emphatic about setting sag in their literature.

Ronnie.

 

[JMH]

Thought I would post an update on the Evolver on my Covert now that I am riding again.

The bottom-out control works. I mean, it REALLY works. I have been playing with pressures and by bumping up the pressure about 25lbs I can essentially shut the shock down and eliminate bottom-out. This should be a welcome feature for all the hucksters out there.

Another thing that struck me is how well the low speed compression valving works. I am not used to feeling much difference between zero and full damping after riding a DHX 5, but I can feel a significant change in the ISX-6 when I crank up the low-speed damping while climbing.

The shock is sweet. I love it, and people that jump on the bike for a quick test have good things to say about it also. Usually when you ask someone what they think, they say "oh, you know, it's not set up for me, the spring rate is off blah, blah." But the Evolver gets them scratching their heads and checking out the shock. Good stuff.

JMH

 

[captain spaulding]

damn this thread has seriously got me thinking about picking up one of these over the winter for my Dirtbag..

 

[yespsb]

guys I've just got a used ISX 6 off a forum member but I cannot find the manual for love nor money, any chance someone can point me in the right direction, thanks Paul

 

[OneBikeGuy]

This is the one they claim it is for ISX6.
http://www.manitoumtb.com/productmanuals.asp?function=64&manualid=256

It doesn't help you much though.

Better off asking questions here.

 

[JMH]

BTW- I just got mine back from a rebuild/refresh. Yes, I can confirm what was posted earlier by pvflyer, you have to run at least 150psi in the piggyback. It's not a variable pressure thing like the SPV chambers on other Manitou shocks. If you don't keep it properly pressurized, the IFP can move out of the correct position, causing a loss of travel. This happened to me when I was running low pressures in there thinking that's how it worked. I lost about .25" of stroke.

I have all my travel back now. Woot!

JMH

 

[OneBikeGuy]

That's good to know. Thanks.

 

[yespsb]

Onebikeguy, thanks, just opened the link up and I reckon thats wins an award for the most useless manual ever

Just like you my ISX:6 is going on my large 6.6. I weigh in at around 200/210 fully kitted out. Thankfully the labels on the shock body tell me what 3 of the adjusters are all about (vol, hi & lo compression) then theres a valve fitting to put air in and blue adjuster with no label on it.

What confuses me is I see you guys talking about various pressures, i.e.main pressure, IFP pressure (what ever that is ) bottom out pressure and I am struggling to understand how can you adjust all these pressures and register them all through one air inlet valve, clearly I am missing something but what ?

btw my shock looks like the one in the photo earlier in this thread, the only difference the labels on mine are black not red, see photos in the STW link http://www.singletrackworld.com/article.php?sid=2058

All help & advice is appreciated, thanks Paul

 

[Ronnie]

Onebikeguy, thanks, just opened the link up and I reckon thats wins an award for the most useless manual ever

Just like you my ISX:6 is going on my large 6.6. I weigh in at around 200/210 fully kitted out. Thankfully the labels on the shock body tell me what 3 of the adjusters are all about (vol, hi & lo compression) then theres a valve fitting to put air in and blue adjuster with no label on it.

What confuses me is I see you guys talking about various pressures, i.e.main pressure, IFP pressure (what ever that is ) bottom out pressure and I am struggling to understand how can you adjust all these pressures and register them all through one air inlet valve, clearly I am missing something but what ?

btw my shock looks like the one in the photo earlier in this thread, the only difference the labels on mine are black not red, see photos in the STW link http://www.singletrackworld.com/article.php?sid=2058

All help & advice is appreciated, thanks Paul

I'm sorry guys but that is not the latest Manitou shock manual and it does not incorporate the Evolver shocks. I got my ISX-6 about a year ago and it came with a 2007 shock manual. Maybe you should give Manitou a call and ask for one. Also take a look at this thread which I started at the time. I didn't understand the shock either. It has a lot of useful information.

Ronnie.

 

[TNC]

Hey Ronnie...I see this higher pressure...140-150 psi...deal keeps coming up for the piggyback air charging. I've tried that pressure on mine, and the shock did not perform well at all. Small bump compliance got very harsh and the bottomout performance got strong enough to limit travel.

The one thing that I find confusing in this situation is the fact that I'm pretty sure the IFP design in the Manitou air shocks is basically the same in the Intrinsic and SPV models, and that the difference is in the circuitry of the valving as to how the pressurized IFP will affect the shock's operation. Now...if Manitou's IFP is designed to operate with integrity at pressures as low 50 psi for the SPV models, why is it not capable of operating at 50 psi in the Intrinsic mode? My understanding of the difference in piggyback operation between the SPV and Intrinsic air shocks is that both models have the circuitry that influences bottomout performance, but the Intrinsic models do not have the same circuitry that affects pedal platform like the SPV models. Note, that I didn't say that there is no small bump compliance influence when you jack up the pressure in the piggyback in an Intrinsic model...but it is not a true pedal platform as contained in the SPV model.

I've had two and currently still have one 4-Way Air SPV shock on one of my Bullits. This shock operates with full integrity at low SPV pressures as long as you don't let it go below 50psi. I can't see why the IFP in the Intrinsic models would be so completely different, when all Manitou really had to do was disable or modify the circuitry that created pedal platform...simplification instead of complication. Now...I realize that there may be a totally different issue going on here in the ISX-6 that indeed might require a wholly different approach, but it doesn't seem logical.

I've been talking to some of the guys at Manitou about rebuilding that 4-Way Air I have on my Bullit...and I mean a complete rebuild, not just an air can service. I'm getting some technical info sent to the shop along with the parts to accomplish this, and I'm looking forward to tackling this. I've totally rebuilt dirt motorcycle rear shocks but have never tackled any serious bicycle rear shock surgery beyond air can service...Cane Creek simple air shocks not included. I think I'll dig a little more with them on my ISX-6 internals to see if I can get a definitive answer. I absolutely love the performance of my ISX-6 on my Nomad, and if there's more improved performance to be gained in this shock with different setup, then I'm all for it.

 

[Ronnie]

Hi Thad,

I've just taken another look in my manual that came with my shock. There is absolutely no mention anywhere that the pressure must be set to a fixed "150psi". They do however lump it together with SPV shocks though with the pressure range of 50 to 175psi. If it was meant to be run at a fixed 150psi. I think they would have said so.

I have also previously had a look to the online service manual and the shocks are covered together. The SPV shocks appear to be exactly the same except they have a SPValve on the piston and shocks like ours have a shim stack.

The way I understand it is that the pressure in the IFP controls compression damping. More pressure, more compression damping. That is why there is no small bump compliance at high pressure. There is too much compression damping, Of course there is the further option of changing the slope of the compression by altering the volume.

I've been using mine with 60psi. in the IFP for almost a year and there have been no problems. The small unit in the cone connecting the main body and the IFP has a small unit they call the Intrinsic unit. It has the high and low speed compression controls on it. I think that unit is what really is the difference between the shocks. The ISX-4 has the Intrinsic unit but no High and low controls.

Ronnie.