Zee’s everyday.

Had guides and Saints. Guides lasted 2 runs in the alps before fading out. If it’s for a DH rug Codes would be more appropriate if you really don’t want Zees.

Guides are marketed as a heavy duty (ish) brake.

 

Zee

 

For reliability, Zee.

If you're considering Guide, you may want to look at the results from this search
site:forums.mtbr.com guide master cylinder
SRAM have been saying for 3+years that they've fixed the issue.

 

Zee on last 2 bikes very nice. Universal Cycles has them cheap right now.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

 

IMO, Guides aren't really in the same category as the Zee. And between them, I'd go with the Zees every time.

In my mind, Guides are 4 piston brakes meant for trail/entry level "endure" riding. Zee's are the budget version of the Saints, which is a well known/stellar DH brake.

For reference Guides have 2x14mm, and 2x16mm pistons. Saints/Zees have 2x15mm, and 2x17mm pistons. and Codes have 2x15mm, and 2x16mm pistons, so they're more similar to the Saints/Zees than the Guides are.

I think the new Shimano SLX/XT brakes (the 4 piston ones) have the same caliper as the Saint/Zee, so they are another option to consider. On the cheaper end of the spectrum from Shimano, is the Shimano MT520.

If you're worried about modulation, and would prefer mineral oil, then maybe look at the TRP Quadiem (4x16mm pistons) as well. They have a ton of modulation (no swinglink/servo in the master cylinder), and are very reliable.

Good luck on the search .

 

For reference Guides have 2x14mm, and 2x16mm pistons. Saints/Zees have 2x15mm, and 2x17mm pistons. and Codes have 2x15mm, and 2x16mm pistons, so they're more similar to the Saints/Zees than the Guides are.

You can't really determine much from only comparing the caliper piston sizes of different brakes, it depends also what is the main piston(lever) diameter(ratio between surface area of main piston and caliper pistons defines the how much braking force). If all would have same main piston diameter, then you could compare almost directly. But just almost, because also the lever ratio plays a role on how much same amount of finger throw moves the caliper pistons and what is the force required. SRAM brakes have quite linear "lever ratio", but Shimano has the ServoWave, that makes the leverage ratio regressive; 1mm of lever move in the beginning moves piston more than 1mm of lever move in the later part, in the beginning part the piston moves a lot but force is small, on latter part piston move is small but force big.

Pads have also tremendous effect on braking feel and power...

For the OP; I'd go with Zee, or any recent Shimano 4pot brakes. They need very little maintenance and when you need to bleed those, it is easy procedure too. If they feel too grabby, you can always play with the pad material of different types a bit. Sintered pads can have quite strong initial bite, so swapping to resin might be good try, or you can combine putting resin to other side and sintered on the other(Minnaar trick)...

 

All 4-pot Shimanos actually have 2x16 + 2x18 mm pistons and not 2x15 + 2x17.

 

I think the Guides feel much better than Saints and its not even close. But they are a pain in the ass about setting the 4 pistons evenly and if I were to buy SRAM brakes again I would 100% get the RSC models since the RS's seem to randomly decide how close the pistons get to the rotor. When I pump the brakes after a bleed I can only ever get one piston to move, thats easy enough to fix on a 2 piston brake but with 4 its a nightmare, the pistons have to be even on each side or the pads go crooked and cause rubbing and other weird noises. Saint's get this problem too but my Saints were almost perfectly in sync and never gave me issues after a bleed.

I cant speak for long downhills yet to see if they fade but I immediately noticed more usable power with less force, especially at the "mid stroke". The braking is very smooth which gives me less arm pump while Shimanos are jolty and feel nervous which gives me more arm pump. I thought Shimanos had fine modulation and I blamed myself for the jolty braking until I used Guides.

Its a hard choice since Shimano's setup procedure is so easy and mostly frustration free while eliminating rotor rub on Guides after a bleed is a nightmare, but once you get the Guides working they feel so much better.

 

eliminating rotor rub on Guides after a bleed is a nightmare

Zee for sure.

I get that people describe Shimano brakes as being on and off, but I don't think that that's quite correct. The modulation window was very small on my 2 piston XT brakes, but it's there. My brain got used to it, no problem controlling the brakes/bike on slow speed, scary steep sections (such as the really techy stuff at the end of Hiline in Sedona).

No locking up, able to control the bike, maintain traction.

I have 4 piston XT brakes now, and they have all kinds of modulation and power.

I don't have experience with the Zees, but i try to eliminate any kind of nightmare situation when it comes to my bike.

 

Thanks for the clarification Groove_C. Surprisingly, piston sizes aren't super easy to find... and I saw a number of different numbers for both the guides, and the shimano brakes.

I haven't ridden tons of different brakes, especially not compared to some.

I've put some time in on Guide T's, Guide R's, Guide RSC's, Level T's, and what I believe was 2 piston XT (old model), as well as my personal Quadiems.

I can say that the Shimanos are definitely more "on/off" than the other brakes I've ridden. I'm sure if I had them on my personal bike, I'd get used to them, and it wouldn't be a problem.

The OP mentions he has XT on his other bike, and feels they are a bit "on off" for him. If I were the OP, felt that modulation was important enough to seek out, and was open to looking at other brakes than just the Zee/Guide I'd be looking at Codes/Quadiem/Magura/Formula set of brakes.

If the question is ONLY between the Guide, and the Zee, then I'd go for the Zees personally (likely more reliable).

Good luck .

 

The on/off feeling on Shimanos is rather the combination of 2-pot + ServoWave.
4-pot have way more modulation and all the power is towards the end of the stroke, if needed.
On my 2-pot XTs (BR-M785 & BR-M8000) it was on/off feeling all the way. Not the case on my 4-pot Saints and now 4-pot XTR.

 

So I used Guide R's on the Trek Session 8 rental bikes at Trestle... twice... and they worked great and modulated well and never failed in two full days.

Anyone else think it's funny that Sram has set the bar so low that people are impressed when they "didn't fail" for 2 whole days in a row? That's funny.

And yeah, Zee's FTW.

 

You really should be looking at Code vs Zee, not Guide.

 

codes

 

Code only if RSC, because of expanding pistons.
But the price...
I would buy Zee/SLX 4-pot.

 

I've been surprised how much i prefer my new 4 pot XT brakes to my zees.

 

Why exactly?

 

To me, going from Saints sintered to XTR 4-pot sintered is +- same.
Just nicer look and subjectively lighter and even easier to bleed.

 

So, I'm curious here. Its interesting people say that the 4 piston shimano calipers have increased modulation, especially the Saint in particular.

While, I've never ridden a set of Saints (or Zees), I've read a fair number of reviews of these brakes. And from those reviews, I had the impression that the Saints were the "grabbiest" of all of the shimano brakes, or at the very least had the strong reputation for a relative lack of modulation.

I'll have to try a 4 piston set of shimanos the next time I have the chance, just to see how they feel.

And, I understand the argument of less braking power taking more finger strength, and potentially more overall arm pump. But I don't think the situation is as simple as it may seem at first.

First, there are many other brakes out there with more measured braking torque, that have "better" modulation than shimano brakes (Trikkstuff, as one example), so simply saying that less modulation == more power == more better isn't the whole story. How it is delivered matters as well.

Second, i'd argue that having less force/distance travel required to do something isn't always better. I think this part of the reason that people have different preferences comes down of course to what type of brakes they're used to, but I would also guess that a lot to everyones personal fitness levels/exhaustion, and the degree/development of fine vs gross motor control skills.

Typically as you get more fatigued/paniced/etc, fine motor control skills get relatively more difficult than when you were fresh. So depending on the person, using the 1-2mm of lever travel that may theoretically exist between engagement, and locking up the brakes and skidding may be more/less difficult than it would be on another brake that had 1-4mm of lever travel before locking up the brakes. So that may be a reason why someone may prefer to have a brake with a more gradual engagement.

And for how much modulation is "most correct"? It seems that is likely a hot debate, and probably pretty personal. The above is just me trying to say that people have different preferences, for probably for many different reasons.

 

The thing is that most people upgrade to 4-pot Guide or Code from 2-pot brakes that come stock on most of bikes or buy a new bike with them.
So the modulation difference between 2-pot on/off vs. 4-pot Guide/Code is obvious.

To me, this is where most of the conclusions/experiences come from.

Shimano 4-pot have all the power towards the end of the stroke, while SRAM, TRP, Hayes, Magura, Trickstuff have it literally/really at the end.

But one can buy XTR Race levers combined with any of Shimano calipers for this linear/gradual experience.
Btw, all current 4-pot Shimanos (SLX/XT/XTR) have an "improved" lever Servo-Wave curve, much more linear vs. Saint/Zee/XT M8020. But still not completely linear.

I personally don't know people that have switched from Shimano 4-pot to SRAM 4-pot.
But I know a lot of people who have done the opposite.

I personally have combined my Saint calipers with XTR Race (no Servo-Wave linear) levers and also with XTR Trail (Servo-Wave) levers and I prefer much more the levers with Servo-Wave, because for me, literally linear was too linear.

 

Hi Peter,

Here's some thorough reviews on the brakes you mentioned, and more.
- https://enduro-mtb.com/en/best-mtb-disc-brake-can-buy/
- https://www.vitalmtb.com/features/Vital-MTB-Face-Off-The-Best-DH-Brakes,2152

Best of luck!

 

@scottzg
It must be improved modulation and firmer lever, because of additional support part that make new 4-pot XT feel more powerful.

 

Wow! This thread exploded. And I only got one email notification of a response. I’m going to go back and read it all.

Just so everyone knows, way back someone suggested the Zee’s and that Universal had them on sale for a great price. So I got them and installed them.

I can say this much... going from memory they are MUCH bigger than the Guide R’s I remember on the Session 8 rental bashers I rode at Trestle this summer. At the very least the size alone is a confidence booster as I weigh 200lbs.

One other thing that swayed me... an article reminded me about the water attracting nature of DOT 5.1 and the water repelling nature of mineral oil.

Anyway, off to read this huge thread now. Thanks again all.

-Peter

 

Wow! This thread exploded. And I only got one email notification of a response. I'm going to go back and read it all.

Just so everyone knows, way back someone suggested the Zee's and that Universal had them on sale for a great price. So I got them and installed them.

I can say this much... going from memory they are MUCH bigger than the Guide R's I remember on the Session 8 rental bashers I rode at Trestle this summer. At the very least the size alone is a confidence booster as I weigh 200lbs.

One other thing that swayed me... an article reminded me about the water attracting nature of DOT 5.1 and the water repelling nature of mineral oil.

Anyway, off to read this huge thread now. Thanks again all.

-Peter

They're really good brakes. You'll be psyched. If you own zees and weigh 200lbs, changing brakes to anything else won't improve your ride experience. They're in a different class than guides.

I shittalked them a bit earlier in the thread. My first set of zees came with the nicer pads (finned, same as saint i think?) and they were amazing from the getgo. The second set came with different pads, sounds like groove_c knows exactly what, and they were an obvious step in the wrong direction. They were alright, though. I'd run them and then get something different. From a value perspective, truckerco pads have been my favorites, but the latest iteration of premium shimano have performed the best. Haven't tried trickstuff.

The zee levers can have the reach adjust added to them if you take out the blind ports and add screws. I did it with one of my sets, but didn't find the adjustment particularly useful. If you're a tiny-handed princess you might feel differently. Not judging.

The newest 4pot XT are unequivocally better, but it's a lot of refinement, not revolution. Not worth paying attention to once you own brakes.

I have >8 million feet of descending on zee brakes. I'm probably accidentally an expert. Too bad i wasn't paying closer attention.

 

Based on the rest of the replies I wish I had bought 4-pot XTRs. Oh well. I have the Zees. And I’m not heartbroken about it. It is what it.

Thanks all.

-Peter

 

SLX 4-pot are same as XTR 4-pot.

Zee have same pistons and power is same as well, if you buy aftermarket Shimano original finned organic/sintered pads.
Zee just look bulkier and not so refined. That's it.

 

BTW, the Zees I just got from Universal have finned pads. Not sure what to make of it.

 

Stock organic finned pads (H01A) are 20% worse than aftermarket Shimano organic finned pads (H03A).
Sometimes Zee come stock with sintered pads (H03C), which are highest quality Shimano has.
4-pot SLX come stock with highest quality organic finned pads.
4-pot XT/XTR come stock with highest quality sintered pads.

So once your stock pads will need to be replaced, buy H03A or H03C pads, to have same power as Saint/XTR.

 

Just a quick update... looks like I scored in the Zee pad lottery. They came with the sintered H03C pads.

Sometimes you’re the bug and sometimes you’re the windshield.

-Peter