[SouthSoundRider]

Your dates are a little off. Only 1x in the late 00's was 1x9 or 10.

Kind of silly making fun of 11 when 12 is the same tech just difference gearing. Hardly revolutionary and in many ways 12 is a step backwards. When chains, and cages need to be so long we should rethink whether 1x is the best way to have that much range. Personally I think 1x11 is as big as we should make 1x. Wide range 1x10 would be better still. There's better ways to go about having wide range than just growing the cassette, chain, and jockey cage. When we move past 12 speed people will make fun of it as the worst version of 1x.

It’s just an old phrase bruh. I’m poking fun at the age old 11 vs 12 speed drama.

 

[Jayem]

You're got that backwards. 12 is better for the flat lands because you need top end. 11 is good the mountains because you don't need as much top end so you can run a smaller front ring.

The popular misconception is 12 came to us because 11 isn't geared low enough. 11 with 30t is essentially the same low end as 2x9 which was a very common drive train before 1x. We lost top end with 1x11 unless you ran a 32t which did make the low end too tall for most in the mountains. 30t and smaller provided plenty low end but killed the top end for people in the flat lands who spin out when there's not enough gravity. 12 speed solved both problems.

More top end for flat landers who spin out on mellow gradients, and more low end for the mountains. Win win from the industries perspective because everyone from the flat lands to the mountains is covered but anyone in the mountains who wants a more compact drive train 11 is better. Better shifting, less finicky overall, and more clearance for the kind of terrain typical in the mountains compared to the flat trails where you spin out.

I'm not sure that makes sense.

First, we changed wheelsizes in there, 29 became the standard and that effectively changed gearing and that happened right as 1x was dropping. I remember getting one of the first long-travel 29er bikes, but only XC race bike were also 29 at the time and 2x10 drivetrains were still being speced. That right there killed 1x11, because it wasn't low enough once we changed wheel sizes. Remember shimano's original 1x11 only went up to 40t.

Second, I'm not sure what you mean by "top end", but the increase in range with the 12 speed meant racers had to put bigger front chainrings on, so they were adding weight to the cassette, adding weight to the derailleur (longer) and adding weight to the chainring. In a best case scenario, the 12 speed drivetrain adds about half a pound compared to 11. This could be useful if you are using those gears, but as an example, on my race 29er with a 32t up front, I wouldn't use bigger than 42. I tried a 30t on it and realized I wasn't using the easiest (low-end) gear. Not like rarely, like not at all. And yes, we deal with plenty of 20%+ grades for climbing. I can't do the same with my heavier bikes, but this XC race bike is so efficient and light that I need it geared "harder". Pros are at least a few levels above me and they turn insane gears all the time. So it's not uncommon to see 34 and 36 speced on their bikes. But as far as spinning, you want to be spinning fast at all times, as much as possible, because it's the most efficient way to pedal a bike over the long run. There is an argument to be made for oversize vs compact, with oversize being more "efficient", but controlling weight on a bike is always a huge concern due to the relatively low power of human engines.

There are lots of people still that think they are "missing out" by not having a 52t chainring up front, but if they aren't pedaling their 32 at 90-100rpm, they ain't "spinning out" like they think on a DH and they just need to pedal faster. We have taken gears back progressively in the MTB world from those roadbike-ratios that take advantage of aerodynamics and we haven't missed out on anything. We are faster uphill, on the flats, and downhill, on dirt where it matters.

 

[unrooted]

If you already have 11 speed, not worth upgrading to 12. But I do really like how consistently well shimano 12 speed shifts under load. Doesn't seem to wear very fast either.

Can be a tricky setup sometimes, need to make sure derailleur hangers are straight, and cables have good clean bends with high quality cable and housing (SP-41) But once it is setup right, it works really damn well

I e had more issues with my XT 12 speed in 3 years than 20+ years of XT 8, 9, 10, 11 speed group sets combined!

are there better chains that I should like at? I’ve only used, and broken XT chains…someone told me they use a SRAM 12 speed chain…but I have a brand new XT chain waiting till I break this one.

 

[slimat99]

I'm not sure that makes sense.

First, we changed wheelsizes in there, 29 became the standard and that effectively changed gearing and that happened right as 1x was dropping. I remember getting one of the first long-travel 29er bikes, but only XC race bike were also 29 at the time and 2x10 drivetrains were still being speced. That right there killed 1x11, because it wasn't low enough once we changed wheel sizes. Remember shimano's original 1x11 only went up to 40t.

Second, I'm not sure what you mean by "top end", but the increase in range with the 12 speed meant racers had to put bigger front chainrings on, so they were adding weight to the cassette, adding weight to the derailleur (longer) and adding weight to the chainring. In a best case scenario, the 12 speed drivetrain adds about half a pound compared to 11. This could be useful if you are using those gears, but as an example, on my race 29er with a 32t up front, I wouldn't use bigger than 42. I tried a 30t on it and realized I wasn't using the easiest (low-end) gear. Not like rarely, like not at all. And yes, we deal with plenty of 20%+ grades for climbing. I can't do the same with my heavier bikes, but this XC race bike is so efficient and light that I need it geared "harder". Pros are at least a few levels above me and they turn insane gears all the time. So it's not uncommon to see 34 and 36 speced on their bikes. But as far as spinning, you want to be spinning fast at all times, as much as possible, because it's the most efficient way to pedal a bike over the long run. There is an argument to be made for oversize vs compact, with oversize being more "efficient", but controlling weight on a bike is always a huge concern due to the relatively low power of human engines.

There are lots of people still that think they are "missing out" by not having a 52t chainring up front, but if they aren't pedaling their 32 at 90-100rpm, they ain't "spinning out" like they think on a DH and they just need to pedal faster. We have taken gears back progressively in the MTB world from those roadbike-ratios that take advantage of aerodynamics and we haven't missed out on anything. We are faster uphill, on the flats, and downhill, on dirt where it matters.

Yeah 29 played a roll for sure considering 1x12 hit the market in 2016 which was right when everyone ditched their 27" wheels. Even when the majority of the market was on 27" people complained about having to run smaller than 32 for good low end which kills the top end.

If you look up the press releases for 1x12 around 2016 you'll hear talk about 12 allowing for a bigger front ring to address 1x11's poor top end. Only way to have good top end with 1x11 is to run 32 or bigger which kills your low end. When 12 first came out everyone focused on the crazy low end but the main point was to keep the low end similar to 1x11 with small ring while providing the top end you would have with 32 or bigger.

 

[evdog]

I went back to 11sp on my Spur when it was time to replace drivetrain the first time. And built my Rail 11sp. No regrets at all.

12sp is more expensive and unnecessary. You can get more top end by going with a larger chainring or get more range at the other end by going to a smaller chainring.

If I'm climbing something that is so steep I need granny gear 50 or 52 then I won't need more top end to descend. Gravity will do its job. The only time I spin out and might be able to use more top end is dirt or paved road. And if you're doing that so much you're considering changing your setup you might as well just hang it up and get a gravel bike.

 

[Mudguard]

2x10 Shimano was Sh*t for Enduro racing full stop. PITA dropped the chain every race, and no amount of adjusting would fix it. 1x with a wide-narrow chainring IS the way to go for rough MTB riding.

Yeah I went back to find another post I made about chain retention in another thread.
NB I was responding to someone who hasn't commentated in this thread.

Cleary you're not riding rough enough terrain. I don't think drops are the best measure. It's repeated roots and rocks that drop it. Look at world cup downhill. Do you see a single one of them racing without a chain guide? Go back a decade and look at EWS when there were still a few using front derailleurs.
I counted three front derailleurs, one with a lower roller.

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/crankworx-2014-enduro-world-series-bike-checks.html

 

[Ride4life!]

+1 for microshift advent x 10 speed. Cheap, lightweight, durable, set and forget. I do get picky about my cadence at times and wish for smaller gearing steps, but it isnt worth the cost and hassle to me to "upgrade".

 

[MTBIvan]

I run 11 speed Deore 11-51 with 30T rings on my FS, HT and fat bike. My gravel bike has a 10 speed Microshift Advent X 11-48T with a 40T ring.

I don’t feel like I need an extra great, happy with the range.

 

[speedygz]

I thought the side swing wasn't until 11spd. I know I ran mine with an 11spd side swing on an otherwise 2x10 setup. Smooth as butter, too. I still think if it had come along sooner none of this 1x stuff would've taken off as quick as it did. The only real downside I see is trying to manage a shift and dropper lever on the same side.

https://bike.shimano.com/en-AU/products/components/pdp.P-FD-M4100-M.html

I don't run a dropper post either. I did for about a year, never really gelled with it, so when it broke I never replaced it

 

[speedygz]

Long cage XT 11 speed has 10t of available wrap capacity on a 46t cassette. A few 64mm N/W rings on the market. Since we live in a valley, 36/26x11-46 is a compelling combo for a general purpose bike.
View attachment 2149044

For sure. As I keep writing, I love tinkering and experimenting. I also have a complete M7000 11-46 drivetrain sitting here that I ran for a lot of years, and put 1000's of kms on. Both as 1x and 2x. I ran 32/24 chainrings with the side swing front derailleur, and as you say, for a general purpose, all round trail bike that will climb the side of a cliff, but still do 70km/hr down a steep enough hill, it makes a very compelling case for itself. I actually liked it better as 2x, but that's just me.

 

[ilmfat]

Two separate use cases. 36 for the streets. 26 for the steeps. Not any reason here to shift mid ride. But now moot. Instead of a bunch of Swiss army bikes, we specialized them with wheels. Which led to "why have a dual use drivetrain when the wheels and tires are chosen for purpose?" So now we have a 38x12 Townie and a 22x24(<--- not a typo) trail bike.

 

[speedygz]

Two separate use cases. 36 for the streets. 26 for the steeps. Not any reason here to shift mid ride. But now moot. Instead of a bunch of Swiss army bikes, we specialized them with wheels. Which led to "why have a dual use drivetrain when the wheels and tires are chosen for purpose?" So now we have a 38x12 Townie and a 22x24(<--- not a typo) trail bike.

I'm hearing you. I no longer intentionally ride near road or gravel. I much prefer sticking to tighter, narrower and more gnarly single track. So my Advent X 11-48 bike with 26T chainring is the weapon of choice. Occasionally I go for a ride with my adult kids, so I'll break out the 2x10 XC bike. Just because I can. They all work. Well. Variety is nice. I don't have to, or want to draw a line in the sand, pick a side and defend it to the death. I can cope with both

 

[noapathy]

https://bike.shimano.com/en-AU/products/components/pdp.P-FD-M4100-M.html

I don't run a dropper post either. I did for about a year, never really gelled with it, so when it broke I never replaced it

Got it. That's a newer product that I wasn't familiar with since I have like 4 of them in a box I got on closeout that may eventually find their way onto the gravel bike.

I Kinda had the same experience with droppers in the beginning but that's changed since they're more reliable than when they first came out (e.g. s**tshow).

I'm hearing you. I no longer intentionally ride near road or gravel. I much prefer sticking to tighter, narrower and more gnarly single track. So my Advent X 11-48 bike with 26T chainring is the weapon of choice. Occasionally I go for a ride with my adult kids, so I'll break out the 2x10 XC bike. Just because I can. They all work. Well. Variety is nice. I don't have to, or want to draw a line in the sand, pick a side and defend it to the death. I can cope with both

Reported for logical thinking.

 

[speedygz]

Got it. That's a newer product that I wasn't familiar with since I have like 4 of them in a box I got on closeout that may eventually find their way onto the gravel bike.

I honestly can't remember the exact timeline they appeared, I'm pretty sure I picked up an 11 speed version first myself. I've bought a couple of new, unused take-offs from brand new bike purchases off of eBay for ridiculous money. Like just over $20 Au for XT versions. My Carbon XC bike has a direct mount FD, that took quite a while for a 10 speed version to appear, without having to pay $$$$ for it 😁😁

 

[speedygz]

Incidentally, what I'm seeing a few of the gravel/bike packers doing now, is running a friction thumb shifter with the front derailleur. Which makes quite a bit of sense really, as they're basically just a 2 position high/low switch. No compatibility issues, and you can still trim at either end of the cassette if things aren't adjusted perfectly. Cheap, cheerful and effective.

 

[Mudguard]

To keep beating a dead a horse, here's the chain retention between an old school guide and equally old school front derailleur.

The only issue I've had with twelve speed is my usual riding terrain I shift a lot more. Mostly as I rarely just need the next gear, it's always a couple. Whereas I wonder if on ten speed, with a 12-36 then 12-42 and finally 12-46 I think I just grunted out the current gear.
I've not really checked the spread of the gears over the various cassettes. I've got eleven speed on a bike I don't ride much. Think it's XO but with an XT cassette.

 

[silklash]

I find Linkglide 11 speed appealing, as long as you don't care about weight.

 

[Hurricane Jeff]

11 speed, 12 speed, really doesn't matter that much as I'm not counting gears while riding. I really can't say which one is better as they both are damn good. My newer go to bike runs Sram XX AXS which is awesome, easily the best shifting, and no adjustment group that I've ever run. I use a 34t chain ring and the 10-52 cassette which is more than enough range. MOn another bike I have Sram XO 11 speed which works excellent to. That bike I run a 32t chain ring an a SunRace 11-46 cassette.

 

[Oogie]

deore and gx 10 speed always excellent for me. My first foray into 12 speed is sram nx and I hate it. The bike it came stock on it going to get a parts bin box 9 or gx 10 speed if I can find the gx shifter. May just have to buy one for $30.

 

[Suns_PSD]

I run SRAM X01 11 speed on my Relay e-bike. It's light, cheap, shifts amazing, has great ground clearance (an even bigger deal on a mullet bike) & has an all steel construction. On the very steepest bits I sometimes wish for a lower gear.

My wife's 26# 150mm 27.5" trail bike has X01 11 speed on it as well.

My trail bike (Smuggler) has a very rare XTR HG+ 11 speed (10-45) cassette combined with a 12sp X01 shifter and an old X01 Eagle derailleur. That's the best transmission I've ever used, except for the squeaks between the cogs. It's awesome.

I'm finally relenting, and my next e-bike will have a 12 speed, just because the new e-bikes all have 34T front chainrings (less shifting, finally!) but also the DJI motor as well as the CX-R have shift functions that mesh with modern electronic 12 speeds and I want those features. I didn't think that 12 speeds would be the way with full power e-bikes, but that is where the market went.