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I'm going to say it. I HATE my fox 38...

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#61 ·
LMN said:
Forks work best if they are used on the terrain that they are designed for. An SC32 is an amazing fork on XC trails, but terrible on steep, fast rough descents. A 38 is amazing on steep, fast, rough descent but terrible on XC terrain. Looking for some thing a little bit more well rounded, go with a 34 or a 36 or what ever the equivalent is from another manufacture.

Currently, I really like the new 34s. These seem to work well on the largest range of trails.

As for set-up, among the racers the current trend is set-up forks stiff and with very little dampening, compression or rebound. I think it is because modern bikes are stable enough to handle a very lively suspension set-up.
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I completely agree. Racers are looking for supportive but fast moving suspension. I think a lot of consumers are looking for comfortable suspension which means soft and slow moving. This is why there are so many posts and threads asking why Fox's recommended are so harsh/stiff and talking about how they're running like 10-20 psi less in their fork.
 
#62 ·
jeremy3220 said:
I completely agree. Racers are looking for supportive but fast moving suspension. I think a lot of consumers are looking for comfortable suspension which means soft and slow moving. This is why there are so many posts and threads asking why Fox's recommended are so harsh/stiff and talking about how they're running like 10-20 psi less in their fork.
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Honestly I find their setting actually to be a bit on the soft side. My experience is that most of time when people complain about harsh suspension the issues is they are running it too soft. They are in that part of suspension curve where it ramps in a hurry.
Or they are running a fork that was designed for way more aggressive trails than what they are riding.
 
#63 ·
Nat said:
Did you like your Mezzer right out of the box?
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I love my Mezzer Expert, total night and day difference compared to the Lyrik Ultimate I had before. I weigh 220ish, and after 8 months I still couldn't get the Lyrik to feel good, it was either too harsh or too soft, there was no middle ground. I don't think it was designed for people over 200lbs.

Right out of the box the Mezzer Expert was super plush, and held the ground like a vacuum cleaner. I added an IRT, and that combo has made an already amazing fork significantly better than the Lyrik. Really it's not even close, I can fly around berms and then eat a chunked up, brake bumped, sandy, chute with confidence. With the Lyrik it was one or the other, and even then it wasn't fun...
 
#64 ·
LMN said:
Honestly I find their setting actually to be a bit on the soft side. My experience is that most of time when people complain about harsh suspension the issues is they are running it too soft. They are in that part of suspension curve where it ramps in a hurry.
Or they are running a fork that was designed for way more aggressive trails than what they are riding.
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Yeah I'm running about 10 psi higher than what Fox recommends for the 38 and much faster rebound. The 38 comes with 3 volume spacers I think and OP should probably remove them and increase their pressure.
 
#65 ·
ungod said:
I'd buy a Mezzer, ohlins, or EXT. In that order but mostly because of price.

If you want to know why, just go read through the threads on those respective forks. They're filled with people who modified the hell out of their Fox and RS forks and still hated them.

I switched to the Mezzer after years of riding Fox and always buying the new model because the reviews said it was a huge improvement over the last model. I honestly had no idea a fork could feel as good as the Mezzer. My riding has improved dramatically because of it!

The ohlins I know less about, and I know the EXT fork had some growing pains but people really love it. My EXT rear shock has been amazing. Between the three I don't think I will ever own another Fox or RS shock or fork again, and threads like this reinforce that opinion.
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I was one of those people who got sick of modding the Fox 36 and it still feeling like ass. This included the Push ACS3 kit and custom tuning the damper.

So I found a good shock guy (Mike Howse at the Shock Howse in Seattle), and we've had several different bikes with the same Ohlins RCF36 m2 forks (one a 29er for the plus bike, the others for 27.5s). For my DH bike, I picked up a used 2016 Boxxer WC, and that fork still felt horrible. So I had Mike convert it to coil and put in an Ohlins damper.

All of my bikes run Ohlins TTX coils, and Ohlins RXF 36 m2, except the DH bike with the modded Boxxer. I found a shock tuner who speaks my language, and I keep my suspension maintained. You can tell when the suspension doesn't feel right though, and you have to take care of it--send it in for regular service intervals, wipe down the stanchions after every ride, use fork boost every few rides, etc.

Also, as your riding changes, you'll probably need to retune your shock and fork on occasion. It helps keeping things feeling right, and it's worth it to me.
 
#66 ·
My thoughts are 160mm 150lb dude is overkill for a 38. 36 would be fine.

I have 2017/18 fox 36 and lyric. I have the to much grease in the neg air chamber harness. I also upper the travel to 180mm from 170.

Fox is now pillowy.

However its still harsher for small bump performance than the lyric. That said, fox has better mid travel support when it gets roudy.

My fork of choice for gnar,. Fox snd for small chattery trail the lyric.
 
#67 ·
plummet said:
My thoughts are 160mm 150lb dude is overkill for a 38. 36 would be fine.
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I coach one of the best female enduro racer in the world. She races on a 36, because it is appropriate for 135lb weight. And I can guarantee she rides fast and harder than nearly all of us.
 
#68 ·
plummet said:
My thoughts are 160mm 150lb dude is overkill for a 38. 36 would be fine.

I have 2017/18 fox 36 and lyric. I have the to much grease in the neg air chamber harness. I also upper the travel to 180mm from 170.

Fox is now pillowy.

However its still harsher for small bump performance than the lyric. That said, fox has better mid travel support when it gets roudy.

My fork of choice for gnar,. Fox snd for small chattery trail the lyric.
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What other brand forks have you compared to these?
 
#69 ·
Danzzz88 said:
The advantage the RS and FOX do have though is the aftermarket tuning...I'm sure there is better performing forks out of the box, but you can't throw a Smashpot, ACS3, Avy or FAST damper in any of them...most you can do is skf seals and a shim stack/oil tune.
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You mention it later on, but some other brands don't seem to need the aftermarket options. It still blows my mind that these aftermarket products exist. That said I've barely ridden anything other than my Mattoc for the last few years, and the other forks I've ridden I've not been in a position to adjust them (IE doing a lap on a friend's 36, he's not going to want me to twist all the knobs and play with air pressure!).
 
#70 ·
slimat99 said:
You entered the fray when the industry was pushing 650b like it was the second coming. Now it's a legitimate question as to what 27" supply is going to look like in the coming years. What's old is new so I'm sure we'll see smaller than 29" wheels trend again kind of like 38mm forks. You weren't in the game when the first batch of 38mm forks hit the market. I personally don't think 38mm makes sense. You just add seal drag. Fork chassis rigidity comes mostly from the crown/steerer interface, bushing overlap, wall thickness, and axle. Pretty much in that order. It's quite easy to make a fork prohibitively stiff with 36mm or narrower, but hey, 38mm looks totally badass! People need to know I ride hard AF!
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When I got into it I bought a Bulls Copperhead 3 for 50% off. Bulls tried selling bikes in North America but it never took off, so they cleared inventory.

I heard about them from a friend and that was good enough, and it wasn't until a few years later when I started looking at FS bikes where I started learning.

It's not like there's some go-to website for all this, it's a minefield littered with marketing and misinformation, and it's takes time to navigate.

For instance, I thought a carbon crankset would be a good idea and I got the X01s which lasted 2 months before they broke. I mostly ride bike parks, and now it's common sense, but at the time I had no clue carbon cranks could break so easily, and probably aren't a good idea for DH. Then I find out there's actually X01 crankset for DH. Then it's 165mm vs 170 ... You get the point.

Then there's geo which is a whole other conversion. Kinda missed when I was oblivious to all this stuff.
 
#71 ·
Damn I love my 38 and x2. Set it up close to factory/manufacturer recommendations with a little less compression and more rebound. I have ridden coils including 888s back in the day, and would love to give an EXT storia at some point, but actually been really impressed with the more aggressive Fox stuff so far
 
#72 ·
jeremy3220 said:
Yeah I'm running about 10 psi higher than what Fox recommends for the 38 and much faster rebound. The 38 comes with 3 volume spacers I think and OP should probably remove them and increase their pressure.
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That is where I would start. Volume spacers are one of those things that make a fork feel great on the floor and terrible on the trail.
 
#73 · (Edited)
norcalbike said:
Damn I love my 38 and x2. Set it up close to factory/manufacturer recommendations with a little less compression and more rebound. I have ridden coils including 888s back in the day, and would love to give an EXT storia at some point, but actually been really impressed with the more aggressive Fox stuff so far
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It's always the same people on here bashing Fox, some for obviously self-interested reasons. I own several bikes, and several forks, including Manitou, RS and Fox. Love my 36 and 34. I feel sad others, like the OP, can't seem to find the same level of joy. I wonder whether others have even ridden Fox lately. The OP seems sincere. Others? Yeah, not so much. Doesn't take very long to learn who lacks credibility on here.
 
#74 ·
A luftkappe did wonders for my 36 (an older RC2 model). I also removed all volume spacers as I don't typically bottom it hard. When the for was stock I ran the compression wide open, but when I added the luftkappe, I could easily bottom the fork. It was actually moving too fast under me, so I added a few clicks of both high a low speed compression to calm the fork down. My buddy had a similar experience. I test rode a new Bronson with a "better" fox 36 GRIP2 and did not like it compared to my current fork.
For your 38, I'd try removing the volume spacers. Open up the compression and make sure the rebound is correct and get your sag correctly set. The small bump should be good, if you feel like you need less air pressure to get the small bump where you want it, consider a luftkappe.
IMO Fox forks feel great when being pushed hard (riding fast over rough terrain). Adding the luftkappe and tuning the damper with bracketing helped me get my fork feeling really really good.
 
#75 ·
I’ve had a Fox 38 damper tuned by Dougal in NZ. My 38 is set at 170mm travel and the airside has a Luftkappe fitted. I run about 107psi with no tokens and I’m 85kg.
LSC 2 from closed
HSC 2 from open
LSR 5 from closed
HSR 5 from open

I’ve had enough time to get some decent feedback on the fork fitted to my Kenevo SL before the bushings opened up so much the fork had to be returned under warranty for sloppy bushings/excessive stiction (still waiting on the fork to be returned).

With the mods I liked the fork. It was unremarkable and dealt with everything with no fuss or distracting behaviour. This is a great compliment for any fork imo. I found it to be good with small trail chatter and it never left me with sore hands even after extended downhill chunky runs. Chassis stiffness seemed on point and with everything optimised it was great. Couldn’t really ask for more tbh.

As soon as the bushings opened up and the stiction was added there was a harshness that crept in quite quickly leaving sore hands after only smallish runs. The ability to really lean on the front, heavily weighting it into bumpy corners reduced markedly and confidence in the fork went away.

Seems to be this fork has a small window where everything works well and anything that is not optimised really makes it feel quite average. Fox quality control….is there such a thing? Is this the main reason for many users being unhappy with their big fork? Dougal had to machine parts for my damper to get it to hit damping targets and I’m guessing he isn’t chasing any odd numbers that Fox wouldn’t be either so what are the chances of there being many other dampers out there with shithouse controls on an important feature like damping?
 
#76 ·
Nat said:
I enjoy the Fox Dialed series on YouTube. Top level pro Dh'ers roll their bikes into the Fox tent, describe how their bike is behaving and how they want it to behave, then the suspension tuning pro(s) make all the adjustments.
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That show gave me opposite message.
If their suspension are so great, why it's so finicky and so many pros consistently feel something is off all the time.

And here we only see pros on Fox camp.
What if riders on other teams barely touch their suspension setting day to day because it just work?
 
#78 · (Edited)
springs said:
I’ve had a Fox 38 damper tuned by Dougal in NZ. My 38 is set at 170mm travel and the airside has a Luftkappe fitted. I run about 107psi with no tokens and I’m 85kg.
LSC 2 from closed
HSC 2 from open
LSR 5 from closed
HSR 5 from open

I’ve had enough time to get some decent feedback on the fork fitted to my Kenevo SL before the bushings opened up so much the fork had to be returned under warranty for sloppy bushings/excessive stiction (still waiting on the fork to be returned).

With the mods I liked the fork. It was unremarkable and dealt with everything with no fuss or distracting behaviour. This is a great compliment for any fork imo. I found it to be good with small trail chatter and it never left me with sore hands even after extended downhill chunky runs. Chassis stiffness seemed on point and with everything optimised it was great. Couldn’t really ask for more tbh.

As soon as the bushings opened up and the stiction was added there was a harshness that crept in quite quickly leaving sore hands after only smallish runs. The ability to really lean on the front, heavily weighting it into bumpy corners reduced markedly and confidence in the fork went away.

Seems to be this fork has a small window where everything works well and anything that is not optimised really makes it feel quite average. Fox quality control….is there such a thing? Is this the main reason for many users being unhappy with their big fork? Dougal had to machine parts for my damper to get it to hit damping targets and I’m guessing he isn’t chasing any odd numbers that Fox wouldn’t be either so what are the chances of there being many other dampers out there with shithouse controls on an important feature like damping?
Click to expand...
I've been concerned about Fox's vent tube up the back of their 2021 castings from the start. Fork bushings are thin wall PTFE and aluminium, they rely totally on the socket being stiff and 100% round. When you cut a channel up the back you've lost that material-efficient hoop-stress support and your casting has to have a lot more metal to make up for it.
But it looks like they didn't add metal to make up for it.

The GRIP, GRIP2 and GRIP2VVC dampers just aren't made to be tuned. The 2018-2020 GRIP/GRIP2 are painfully sensitive to preload. I spent 3 hours on one today and finally hit target with a 0.02mm stack height change. A 0.05mm stack height change will double or halve your compression damping!
The 2021+ GRIP2VVC have very very low compression damping and use 4mm ID shims. If you go past a tiny increase in stack height the LSC needle (which is more like a log than a needle) doesn't close it's port.
So you've gotta modify them with new machined parts just to be tunable!

Regarding athletes. In my experience they are fast in spite of their gear and it takes a major handicap to make them uncompetitive. The biggest thing they need is repeatability. Just watch the girls who ride sponsored. They're pretty much all getting the crap beaten out of them but they're strong enough to survive it.

Here are a couple of local (to me) examples.
Erice Van Leuvan is young and very light. I was up against the limits of what the Mezzer damper can do to get damping low enough for her. But see how this sticks the landing:


Mops is 2018 Enduro Master Womens champ. 6th video in this lineup is a race down a rock-drop on my suspension test circuit. She's getting kicked after full compression:

Doesn't phase her, just rides through it and carries on to win.
 
#79 ·
Hexsense said:
That show gave me opposite message.
If their suspension are so great, why it's so finicky and so many pros consistently feel something is off all the time.

And here we only see pros on Fox camp.
What if riders on other teams barely touch their suspension setting day to day because it just work?
Click to expand...
Good questions. I would like to see a series from the other manufacturers. Considering the very tight finishing times between the racers I could see how they would make any slight adjustments (not just suspension) if it meant that they might gain a fraction of a second. Another question that the series made me wonder is if any of the top World Cup level pros have custom tuning or if they use the same off-the-shelf suspension that anyone can buy. You don’t exactly hear about top guys sending their fork out to Avalanche or anything like that. Custom in-house tuning maybe?
 
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