Spoke noises under load?

mtnbkrmike · Aug 8, 2021

rlee said:
Spokes can wear out. They are alot better than they used to be but they will fatigue with use. I don't keep wheels for that long anymore but have had both Mavic and FSA's meet their fatigue life. Mavics would start creaking then they would start breaking. FSA's were j-bend spokes and usually season 3 you would end every ride with a broken spoke. If you think of the stress you put them under, both torque and impact, they have to have to have a limit.

I have done the chain lube trick on spokes before with success but I think a wheel build might be the better way to go. If you spokes have stretched than it might be time to send them back to Dustin for replacement.
You don't live in the prairies, think about how you smash your bike every ride.

Agreed on all that. I think I will get my LBS to ship them out tomorrow or Tuesday to WAO.

At the same time, I may order a mullet wheel set and finally install the Ziggy Link that has been sitting on my dining room table (with a pile of tires, brake pads, chains and other parts) for a while now. Maybe this is a sign to finally pull the pin on the mullet set up.

And yes. My bikes take an absolute $hit kicking. It never ceases to amaze me the kind of abuse they take. Those wheels have 4 big seasons on them. And not just around here either (that said, the dry rocky terrain in Canmore, Banff and Kananaskis is not exactly buff, West Bragg and Canmore Nordic Centre aside). They have been everywhere from Squamish to Whistler to Cumberland to Revy to Golden to Fernie, and many places in between. They have a crap load of miles on them.

I actually think they are spent. I have never had this happen before but I think that the spokes and maybe other components have reached the end of their useful life.

I may ask Dustin if he would be good enough to rebuild them, and build me a mullet set that I will use. I will give these ones, once rebuilt, to my daughter. She is 120 pounds and a much kinder, gentler soul than me (both on and off the bike). They will have lots of life left for her, once they have been rebuilt, and are otherwise beautiful wheels (240s).

If anyone has any other ideas or disagrees with this approach, I would really appreciate hearing from you.

Thank you for all your help.

ATXZJ · Aug 8, 2021

MTB Engineer said:
You need to check the spoke tension after tensioning, relieving and then after a few rides if/when the noise occurs again.

Could the spokes sit at angles and rub against each other? Perhaps the wheel was not "relieved" properly after retensioning? Or maybe the spokes were installed incorrectly and this is why the rub and "ping"?

@mtnbkrmike

I chased that very same noise on my rear ENVE wheel when i switched the hub out. It sounded like someone was plucking the spokes under full power in the crawler gears. I would suspect that your drop in chainring size just upped the torqued being loaded onto the spokes through the hub. Also changing out tires can sometimes de-tension spokes as well. My 70/30HVs came with DT bladed spokes from the factory, are notoriously stiff ( too stiff) and require a **** ton of tension. Dropped some tri-flow chain lube on the cross sections of the spokes and the noise went away for a bit then came back. It seemed the bladed spokes were rotating slightly when being tensioned during the build causing the edges of the blades to rub one another. An issue not found with round spokes. Admittedly, i just ran the spokes to slightly over absolute max tension mounted the tire, and went on with my life, noise free.

If this issue keeps coming back, I'd look into a set of round spokes and go from there.

My crap 2c
ATX

mtnbkrmike · Aug 8, 2021

ATXZJ said:
@mtnbkrmike

I chased that very same noise on my rear ENVE wheel when i switched the hub out. It sounded like someone was plucking the spokes under full power in the crawler gears. I would suspect that your drop in chainring size just upped the torqued being loaded onto the spokes through the hub. Also changing out tires can sometimes de-tension spokes as well. My 70/30HVs came with DT bladed spokes from the factory, are notoriously stiff ( too stiff) and require a **** ton of tension. Dropped some tri-flow chain lube on the cross sections of the spokes and the noise went away for a bit then came back. It seemed the bladed spokes were rotating slightly when being tensioned during the build causing the edges of the blades to rub one another. An issue not found with round spokes. Admittedly, i just ran the spokes to slightly over absolute max tension mounted the tire, and went on with my life, noise free.

If this issue keeps coming back, I'd look into a set of spokes and go from there.

My crap 2c
ATX

Thank you Sir!

What's also weird is that I have beaten those wheels pretty badly, but up until now had not touched them. And I mean, not even once. They had required zero adjustments or spoke tension tweaking for 4 years. They didn't so much as make a peep.

Then BOOM. Just like a light switch being turned on, they went from perfect to effed. And yes - it coincided exactly with when I swapped the One Up ring for the smaller Race Face ring. I can't stop thinking that all of that is connected (maybe as a result of the increased torque, like you mentioned).

Crazy.

ATXZJ · Aug 8, 2021

mtnbkrmike said:
Thank you Sir!

What's also weird is that I have beaten those wheels pretty badly, but up until now had not touched them. And I mean, not even once. They required zero adjustments or spoke tension tweaking for 4 years. They didn't so much as make a peep.

Then BOOM. Just like a light switch being turned on, they went from perfect to effed.

Crazy.

It happens my friend

MTB Engineer · Aug 8, 2021

I suppose 4 years of hard riding COULD fatigue the spokes, but it would need a really unlucky combo of tension, riding hours and potentially very rough use to happen.

mtnbkrmike · Aug 8, 2021

MTB Engineer said:
I suppose 4 years of hard riding COULD fatigue the spokes, but it would need a really unlucky combo of tension, riding hours and potentially very rough use to happen.

That's it for bladed spokes for me. I also think that that's a contributing factor. I paid a $180 CDN premium to end up with the premature onset of noise that is going to drive me insane. Non-bling round spokes from now on.

EDIT: none of this is intended to be a slight against We Are One. I have a set on my hardtail too, but with 350s and round spokes. I ride that bike everywhere I ride my Druid, and just as hard. I makes me shudder to think of the beating that rear wheel takes. I won't ever buy anything other than We Are Ones. The product is incredible, and the service is even better. 10/10. Just in case the wrong messaging is coming across in my non-eloquently worded posts.

ATXZJ · Aug 8, 2021

mtnbkrmike said:
That's it for bladed spokes for me. I also think that that's a contributing factor. I paid a $250 premium to end up with the premature onset of noise that is going to drive me insane. Non-bling round spokes from now on.

The ENVEs were the first and only wheels I've owned with bladed. They are also my last.

DT is my go-to for spokes, rims and hubs

DT COMPETITION® | DT Swiss

www.dtswiss.com

mikesee · Aug 8, 2021

mtnbkrmike said:
Dammit. It's back.

I called We Are One. They basically said (as I understood it) that I likely stretched and wore out the spokes from overuse.

Hmmm. How many miles/hours/rides on this wheelset?

mtnbkrmike · Aug 8, 2021

mikesee said:
Hmmm. How many miles/hours/rides on this wheelset?

Thanks for wading (weighing?) in on this. I just got a Garmin Edge for my birthday this year. Before that, I never tracked anything. I would say for this wheelset, on average, 4 legit Rocky Mountain rides a week, for 8 months a year, for 4 years. That's probably not specific enough to be of any use ?

Not sure if it matters, but the rear wheel is on an 11-6 equipped Druid, so only 130mm of pretty firm travel.

I sense from your question that spoke fatigue/end of life is a remote possibility…

mtnbkrmike · Aug 9, 2021

mikesee said:
Hmmm. How many miles/hours/rides on this wheelset?

Oops. I see now that this may have been intended as a rhetorical question.

On the basis that it's a remote possibility at best that my spokes are toast, I will circle back with my lbs before I do anything. Fortunately, they have a guy there who has reportedly built over 3000 wheel sets so I assume he knows what he is doing.

@mikesee - if you have any thoughts at all, including whether bladed spokes may be contributing to all this, I would be most appreciative to hear any thoughts you may have.

First world problems for sure, but I wouldn't mind getting this addressed sooner rather than later. I suspect my riding season (before I have to pull out the fatties) is significantly shorter than for most of you.

erdawe · Aug 9, 2021

Haha I have 27 internal We Are Ones on 29 wheels with CR Ray spokes. They are on Onyx hubs so I am sensitive to how they feel with pedaling power transfer for good and bad. About a year ago I felt them sort of "wind up" in spoke tension with hard pedaling accelerations on factory build wheels from 2019 closeout after 1 yr riding. Sure the wheels stayed true, but had some slight de- tensioning from We Are One. I had spoke tension touched up with local wheel guy and will continue to give them trail rotation today still not much fuss.

My Light Bicycle built Cx Ray Carbon 27.5 wheels build by Nobl are 4 years old and are very stiff, never still need touch up more or less.

I'm wondering if We Are One built their trail rims with lower side of acceptable tensions going for compliance.

I also don't use wheels as heavy as single user as I rotate wheels for different tire combos to accommodate riding types, as I hate changing tires regularly in season faffing with lightweight inserts and tubeless mess.

mtnbkrmike · Aug 9, 2021

erdawe said:
Haha I have 27 internal We Are Ones on 29 wheels with CR Ray spokes. They are on Onyx hubs so I am sensitive to how they feel with pedaling power transfer for good and bad. About a year ago I felt them sort of "wind up" in spoke tension with hard pedaling accelerations on factory build wheels from 2019 closeout after 1 yr riding. Sure the wheels stayed true, but had some slight de- tensioning from We Are One. I had spoke tension touched up with local wheel guy and will continue to give them trail rotation today still not much fuss.

My Light Bicycle built Cx Ray Carbon 27.5 wheels build by Nobl are 4 years old and are very stiff, never still need touch up more or less.

I'm wondering if We Are One built their trail rims with lower side of acceptable tensions going for compliance.

I also don't use wheels as heavy as single user as I rotate wheels for different tire combos to accommodate riding types, as I hate changing tires regularly in season faffing with lightweight inserts and tubeless mess.

Hey man!!! Thanks for the response.

But more importantly, HUGE shout out to you!!! I am still so happily using the 425 lb spring I got from you. Thanks so much for that. I don't believe I properly thanked you, at least not publicly, so I am now. Apologies for not having done so sooner.

THANK YOU SIR!

Mike

erdawe · Aug 9, 2021

mtnbkrmike said:
Hey man!!! Thanks for the response.

But more importantly, HUGE shout out to you!!! I am still so happily using the 425 lb spring I got from you. Thanks so much for that. I don't believe I properly thanked you, at least not publicly, so I am now. Apologies for not having done so sooner.

THANK YOU SIR!

Mike

So awesome to hear you riding the hell out of your Druid! One of the smoothest and most positive transactions I'll probably ever help a guy out with. That coil should last you the life of the bike and shock.
I also find it awesome to hear you've rode the piss out of the bike dialed this season!

I'm going to put my Druid 11-6 back on after previously saving a few grams with the IL coil.

I actually keep coming back to the Druid and finding ways to make it ride better and better for me as a rider with small tweaks. I'll post them in the Druid thread! Upgrades to the bike are bit of a money hole, but still enjoy riding enough, so worth it!

lixxfe · Aug 21, 2021

Ran across this thread searching for some consensus on noise and bladed spokes.

My experience: I built up my own wheelset with bladed, straightpull spokes and interlaced them normally. After a couple of years of riding on the wheelset with no issues, I'm now getting the dreaded spoke noise which sounds like the spokes rubbing across each other. I can mimic the noise by squeezing two crossing spokes to cause them to rub. I applied some grease at the spoke crossings and it seems to have helped.

I had a set of wheels professionally built by Wheelbuilder using bladed, straightpull spokes. They came with the spokes non-interlaced. When I called them on it, they said they never interlace bladed spokes (not sure if this is for both straightpull and j-bend, or straightpull only). The person I spoke to couldn't explain why, just said it was their policy. I also bought a prebuilt Mavic wheelset that used bladed, straightpull spokes and they were not interlaced either.

I'm going to check spoke tension first, but my plan is to rebuild the wheels I built to remove the interlacing. The pros must know something...

mtnbkrmike · Aug 21, 2021

lixxfe said:
Ran across this thread searching for some consensus on noise and bladed spokes.

My experience: I built up my own wheelset with bladed, straightpull spokes and interlaced them normally. After a couple of years of riding on the wheelset with no issues, I'm now getting the dreaded spoke noise which sounds like the spokes rubbing across each other. I can mimic the noise by squeezing two crossing spokes to cause them to rub. I applied some grease at the spoke crossings and it seems to have helped.

I had a set of wheels professionally built by Wheelbuilder using bladed, straightpull spokes. They came with the spokes non-interlaced. When I called them on it, they said they never interlace bladed spokes (not sure if this is for both straightpull and j-bend, or straightpull only). The person I spoke to couldn't explain why, just said it was their policy. I also bought a prebuilt Mavic wheelset that used bladed, straightpull spokes and they were not interlaced either.

I'm going to check spoke tension first, but my plan is to rebuild the wheels I built to remove the interlacing. The pros must know something...

Thanks for sharing. My spoke noise is still there after a through inspection and retensioning by an experienced wheel builder at my LBS. I am either going to ride them til mid October and then send them to We Are One for a rebuild, or do it earlier and ride my Honzo while I am waiting. Still deciding whether I should get a mullet wheel set from We Are One at the same time. If I do, I won't be getting bladed spokes. That's it for me. Wish I wouldn't have got them on this wheelset.

233946 · Aug 21, 2021

MTB Engineer said:
Unless over-tensioned spokes don't "wear out". If properly tightened just past their yield point but with the tension still below permanent elongation the spokes should last hunderds of millions of cycles. For a spoke a cycle is the point where the wheel is loaded enough for one spoke to lose tension, for example hucking the bike to flat and then becoming tensioned again as the wheel rotates and finds its natural round shape again.

who am I to contradict a wheel builder, but I don't think spokes "wearing out" in normal use is a thing.

Agree, this is same I have seen from my reading.

rlee · Aug 21, 2021

The bladed spokes Mavic used on their CrossMax were large spokes and radial laced. I have owned 5 sets of these in 26 and 29er. They could lace without crossing them because of the size of spoke. They rode stiff. Very stiff.
The cx-rays that WAO uses are light very small blades and their wheels ride nice.
I have about 20 hours on my WAO Hydra/Revive/x-ray wheels and the non drive side became un-tensioned. I have dealt with it but am not happy. I can only assume that the wheel builder did not prep the nipples.
Mike, like you I will send them back for repair but not until October.

mtnbkrmike · Aug 22, 2021

rlee said:
The bladed spokes Mavic used on their CrossMax were large spokes and radial laced. I have owned 5 sets of these in 26 and 29er. They could lace without crossing them because of the size of spoke. They rode stiff. Very stiff.
The cx-rays that WAO uses are light very small blades and their wheels ride nice.
I have about 20 hours on my WAO Hydra/Revive/x-ray wheels and the non drive side became un-tensioned. I have dealt with it but am not happy. I can only assume that the wheel builder did not prep the nipples.
Mike, like you I will send them back for repair but not until October.

Do you regret getting the bladed spokes? I do. Never again.

rlee · Aug 22, 2021

They are on my xc bike so I wanted the lightest wheel I could get. I would get them again. It would be interesting to ride the same rim/hub but with different spokes back to back so you could compare the ride quality.
My Race Face next sl wheels are more forgiving than my WAO but they are more expensive and only 2 years warranty.

lixxfe · Aug 22, 2021

rlee said:
The bladed spokes Mavic used on their CrossMax were large spokes and radial laced. I have owned 5 sets of these in 26 and 29er. They could lace without crossing them because of the size of spoke. They rode stiff. Very stiff.

Yes, I remember those! Mine are different though- bladed steel. If you look carefully at the photo below, you can see they are cross 2, non-interlaced.

I checked tension on my homebuilt wheelset that's making noise and it looks fine. I'm going to use electrical tape as suggested by @TylerVernon to quiet the squeaking until I have time to rebuild them non-interlaced.

Spoke noises under load?

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