An amazing industry for sure, especially the fact that there are so many compelling bikes from so many brands. Try buying a handmade or bespoke motorcycle and let me know how close the cost comparison is to motos from the bigger companies (they’re miles apart on price). That a made is USA or handmade in UK or whatever bike is so similarly priced to the rest of the bikes available is pretty cool. That small brands with unique offering compete toe to toe with big brand prices is also amazing.

 

You've answered the question why a boutique MTB is so expensive, but what about the Trek/Specialized/Giants of the world that can take advantage of economies of scale? They're just as expensive.

 

Those companies are still relatively small companies, in the grand scheme of the world. They sell so many different models and not a huge number of each one. So, Economies of Scale aren’t really helping them. Also, for the industry they are in, the big three are too big for their own good. They have a lot of high level positions that demand high pay and lots of benefits. They got big, because they spent a lot of money to get there. For example, a lot of marketing, which is expensive. In the case of two of them, there are shareholders to make happy. The sweet spot in the industry is something like a Yeti or a Pivot type of company.

 

I don’t know why people say mountain bikes are expensive.

 

Seriously though, let’s say you want to do something considered “cheap” like backpacking. By the time you grab all the gear for it - those hiking pants, a backpacking tent, backpacking stove, sleeping bag, hiking shoes or boots, a backpack and etc etc - at your local REI - you’re walking out the door with at least a $1,500 bill which is enough to get started mountain biking.

Compare mountain biking with other hobbies that require equipment like skiing, golf, snowmobiling, etc and it will by no means turn out to be the most expensive one unless you make it that way.

 

Boutique mtb is same price now as it was in 1995. Why? Because people are willing to pay that much for them. They're actually pretty cheap for what you can get out of them. If you don't want one then get a $2k Polygon or Trek on sale.

One factor in mtb cost has to be insurance and taxes. Before the tariff war, I could get a carbon Chinese Epic Evo frame knockoff for like $700 shipped. So, let's say a USA company orders 2500 units, the dev costs for their own design, slightly higher quality, paint job, and qc offsets the discounts of order size, then sells that frame for $3200. Factor in $500/frame for USA side labor and a storefront. That's $5 million profit, a pretty good profit.

 

Boutique mtb is same price now as it was in 1995. Why? Because people are willing to pay that much for them. They're actually pretty cheap for what you can get out of them. If you don't want one then get a $2k Polygon or Trek on sale.

One factor in mtb cost has to be insurance and taxes. Before the tariff war, I could get a carbon Chinese Epic Evo frame knockoff for like $700 shipped. So, let's say a USA company orders 2500 units, the dev costs for their own design, slightly higher quality, paint job, and qc offsets the discounts of order size, then sells that frame for $3200. Factor in $500/frame for USA side labor and a storefront. That's $5 million profit, a pretty good profit.

You aren’t factoring in a ton of other costs to do that. And no, the prices aren’t the same. In 1996 I built up the most expensive frame at the time, with top parts. It cost me exactly $5,000. Try doing that now. today, you’d be closer to $15,000 for the best of everything.

 

I wish people would stop linking long videos. I read faster than someone narrates.
I think prices have remained stable and value for money has probably improved.

For the money I paid for my first proper bike, look what it buys now.

From this

To this. Actually costs less!!

 

I wish people would stop linking long videos. I read faster than someone narrates.
I think prices have remained stable and value for money has probably improved.

For the money I paid for my first proper bike, look what it buys now.

From this

View attachment 2143136


To this. Actually costs less!!

View attachment 2143137

Use the 2x function and watch it in half the time.

 

It reminded me of a meme I saw the other day with someone holding maybe a 8 speed XT derailleur against a 12 speed derailleur and cassette, saying look how big and gross it's got.
And all I could think was that 8 speed would have been on a 12-32 at best, with a triple up front and you wouldn't have ridden it on a modern trail without losing chains left right and centre.

 

It reminded me of a meme I saw the other day with someone holding maybe a 8 speed XT derailleur against a 12 speed derailleur and cassette, saying look how big and gross it's got.
And all I could think was that 8 speed would have been on a 12-32 at best, with a triple up front and you wouldn't have ridden it on a modern trail without losing chains left right and centre.

Well, at least you could use that front derailleur to work the chain back on the rings while pedaling.

 

1996 mtb were such junk. I shudder to think that I worked an entire summer in high school to afford a Cannondale 26er hardtail. That thing was almost $3000....$6k in today's money. I built it back up last year with some modern components and it's still unrideable. 8 speed XTR dropping its chain every half a mile even with a front defailure.

 

My issues isn't so much with prices. My issue is we pay premium prices but don't always get premium craftsmanship.

Tolerances in the bike industry are way too sloppy for the prices we pay. Creaky PF BB isn't the nature of PF, it's because your 4,000$ frame has a sloppy BB tube. Or your 100$ BB cups are sloppy. A fork that costs over 1k needs the bushings burnished because the manufacturing is sloppy. Maybe you get lucky and your new expensive fork has the right amount of oil in the lowers? Maybe you get one that has too little oil here, and too much grease there. That's all too common regardless of the manufacturer. Maybe you buy some expensive pedals just to find the bearings have no grease in them. It's really crazy how sloppy the bike industry can be.

 

As usual, the price differential on the high end is of questionable value. I looked at the big S site just for fun. An Epic 8 Pro is a $9k 120/120 just under 24lb race bike which based on the geometry could easily be used as a trail bike if you don't slam the stem. Lot of money, but sounds like a top end bike to me. The S-works version is $14.5k for Flight Control, electric dropper, that sort of stuff and about 1 lb less in weight. That's where the value really seems to drop off. More than 50% price increase for questionable value.

 

Yep. We pay dearly for the bleeding edge. But there are awesome bikes to be had for less money, bikes that look quite a bit like the "new hotness" from a few years back.

Today I was thinking back to my first MTB in 1997, a hardtail aluminum Stumpy for $1000. An entry level racer. Tires were shite--cornering knobs peeling off every ride. The front wheel was radially laced. Looks great in the brochure, but spokes were always working loose. Front shifting was of course balky. That said, I did have a fun time hammering on that thing.

So plug that 1000 into an inflation calculator, and my budget today would be 2000. Sticking with AL HT, Spesh has the Chisel Hardtail for about that, and that bike is better in every way than what I got for equivalent money in 1997. For just a few dollars more, you can get full squish.

Run that inflation calculator backwards and you'll see that 15k flagship bike today would be about 7k back in the late 90s. And that's about what the flagship bikes of that day ran for. Personally, I'd rather ride the 2025 S-Works Epic 8 than a Klein Mantra Pro or Yeti ARC AS/Lt.

So just my observation...The prices are the same, relative to inflation, but the bikes rock way harder today than they did back 25 years ago.

 

Carbon

Is a luxury, not a must have.

 

Most don't realize
1- Carbon is so toxic to make the US will not allow it
2- Carbon cannot be recycled...............

Do I have a carbon frame? Yes!

 

If the market keeps buying at the prices they are asking, it will keep getting more expensive.

 

I honestly don’t think super high end stuff is out of line with reality. Fragile (aka lightweight) parts that need to last and take the abuse that MTB parts do are always going to be expensive. They’re probably a value in reality. You have problems of both scale and size/weight. No one needs them to ride their best of course but,again, just being honest, MTB, even super high end stuff is by far the cheapest hobby I’ve ever had so I’m sure that my tolerance is way higher than most.

If I compare MTB to my other main hobby of golf MTB seems so ridiculously cheap as to be a value. However, just like MTB, you don’t need to be cutting edge or play the best of the best to have fun. Both seem very enjoyable at far more modest levels.

This problem exists in virtually every sport. Even basketball and soccer to some degree.

 

All my sports gear has always been expensive. So what? I could be more irresponsible than I am.

 

That’s pretty much my opinion. In fact, the more expensive MTBing is, the less trailer trash on the trail.

 

I don't know what's going on, but cue the giggling video guy. It's about time he showed up in one of these.

 

Fine, I'll do it myself. Been a while since I'd seen it, but I think the ending is new. 😂 😂 😂

 

 

MTBs provide a solid initial price shock. Evaluate it with reasonable objectivity, and it isn't as obnoxious as it first seems. Think of all of the different specialty manufacturing, materials, expertise and global supply chain vendors it takes to put a high-end bike together, plus distribution, margins, market uncertainty, stock, order minimums, advertising, etc etc etc. Still expensive, but begins to make more sense.

Contrast that with an electric guitar. Boutique ones can command 5k plus, easily. Then look at how they are made. They have a lumber supplier, buy fret wire and a few electronic components with 100 year old designs, and some small plastic parts. The supply chain is short, shallow, and the total materials cost is next to nothing. Throw it in a CNC, do a lilttle hand sanding, gluing, wiring, and finishing, and suddenly the thing can be sold for thousands of dollars, direct from the builder. That makes less sense than bike prices. Lots of things are objectively more expensive than a good bike.

 

MTBs provide a solid initial price shock. Evaluate it with reasonable objectivity, and it isn't as obnoxious as it first seems. Think of all of the different specialty manufacturing, materials, expertise and global supply chain vendors it takes to put a high-end bike together, plus distribution, margins, market uncertainty, stock, order minimums, advertising, etc etc etc. Still expensive, but begins to make more sense.

Contrast that with an electric guitar. Boutique ones can command 5k plus, easily. Then look at how they are made. They have a lumber supplier, buy fret wire and a few electronic components with 100 year old designs, and some small plastic parts. The supply chain is short, shallow, and the total materials cost is next to nothing. Throw it in a CNC, do a lilttle hand sanding, gluing, wiring, and finishing, and suddenly the thing can be sold for thousands of dollars, direct from the builder. That makes less sense than bike prices. Lots of things are objectively more expensive than a good bike.

...and the boutique guitar is probably not better made than a $400 guitar made by Cort in Indonesia

 

Bicycle manufacturing is a solid medium (rather than light or heavy) industry. But it is also susceptible to contracting out various of the aspects of it that require big investments, like the rather obvious frame manufacturing. But also including manufacturing small to medium parts, like a suspension rocker, etc.

It looks like Allied is doing a lot of things in-house that it doesn't HAVE to do, like frame finishing and painting and machining parts. Those robots and multi-axis mills are not cheap, and also not necessary to build bikes, even in the US.

 

In 1995ish - maybe 6 I bought a blem LTS 1 frame - with Manitou 3 forks - all xt (LX cranks)
Swaped parts that broke for cool stuff like billet rear derailleur (all black) and eventually a red judy DH fork.

It was awesome - total cost was about 2K over time for that thing.
Spent 2.8K on my SC heckler in 2003 - it was amazing - nothing xt but it was amazing...
In 2011 bought at Pugsley - 1100 - super awesome amazing all xt - in

2016 bought a Trek Stache - $1600 - best riding bike I have have every ridden.. (now at Deore level) - BUT - has not missed a shift, rear wheel did need a new hub after like 20 miles, but they replaced that for me. Bike is almost 10 years old now and is really perfect. I should change the shock oil at some point...

SO I think because I am basic - I am getting so much more for my money NOW than I did then..

I think the folks that want TOP end stuff - might be hurting.. but when I look back at when I bought the Heckler - I was not able to afford the top end - but the bottom end was so much more amazing than anything that I could have wanted - and the Trek is so much more amazing that the SC was.

The bottom is soooo good compared to what the bottom used to be!

 

The problem is we compare to motorcycles. Go look at high end furniture and you will blown away on how cheap mountin bikes are.

 

If you think biking has gotten crazy, take a look at the wakeboat world. Malibu launched a new brand, Axis, in 2009, that was supposed to be an entry level boat. I bougth one in 2011 for $42,500. The top of the line Malibus were pusing $70K or so? Other brands have followed suit with the entry level sub brand or at least model lines that are more "value" or entry level. You can't get a new Mastercraft for under $180K......and that's there "entry" level line. Their top line ones are now well north of $300K.

ALso used to do a lot of track days in the early 2010's. There were a few new Porsches (it was Porsche club mostly) that were showing up, there'd be a 911T or a GT3. But most cars were older 944's, Boxsters, 80's era and older 911's converted to track cars. Nowadays every newbie shows up in a $300K 911 of some shape, form, or fashion. GT3's used to be well under $100K, now they are pushing $300K.

I don't know where all the money is coming from, but there is a sizable group of very high income people that weren't around a decade ago.

 

In Canada in 2016 the average familty net worth was 300K now it is almost a million. I don't know if the US has had the same growth in net-worth but in Canada peole have a lot more access to finance expensive purchases.

 

Pricing is often more relevant to the market than actual manufacturing costs. MTB tires do not need to cost 100$ but the market will pay such prices so that's what we are charged.

 

That’s mostly not true. Unless there’s no competition. Because at least one of the companies would recognize that, lower their prices to undercut the competition and sell a crap ton more tires than the competition. Most companies as large as a tire company employ a price strategist. Their job is to find the pricing sweet spot. That number is based on a number of factors, including what the competition is pricing their goods at. It’s a sliding scaled based on the profits needed by the company and at what price will sell the most units. It is advantageous to try and keep prices low and sell more units. Supplier prices are lower per unit with higher volume orders. AKA: Economies of Scale.

 

If you look around at the cycling industry, it's not full of millionaires. Most people working in are there for their passion. Even with the "expensive prices", I don't think anyone is "getting rich". I suspect that's just how much it cost to make these parts.

Compared to motorbikes, there's much smaller batch sizes for manufacturing, this is not just because they sell less bikes than motorbikes, but also cause bikes have 4 or 5 sizes for each model, where a motorbike will have one. This means more tooling, more moulds, and therefore more expense. I also suspect motorcycles don't have as much carbon and CNC'd parts. They likely use lower cost manufacturing techniques.

I find the quality of most high end mountain bike components amazing.

 

I find the quality of most high end mountain bike components amazing.

I find the quality to be inscrutable, almost random. In the last year, I've had the following experiences:

Conti Cross King Puregrip (half the price of the black chili ones) - superb tire. $30 tire that is right up there with the $100 tires.
Conti Cross King Black Chili - tread was wobbly from the box.
Zrace M2 X1 brakes - $55 a set on aliexpress. Look better than XTR, stop the same, no problems. Superb brake.
BTLOS carbon spokes - you can't even buy these from 1st world companies. Superb product.
Hayes T2 brakes - $700 a set, too short pad clearance, bleeding is very annoying.
Shimanot XTR brakes - $500 a set, leaky piston seals.
Extralite Hyperboost 3r - $650 a set, deliver. Superb product.

Sometimes quality is expensive; sometimes it's not.

 

One thing this points out. We don't want ALL manufacturing jobs back in the US.

Carbon frame manufacturing is labor-intensive and involves some nasty chemicals, both from a worker-safety and more general environmental standpoint, ie waste disposal, etc.

To make carbon manufacturing even vaguely competitive with second- or third-world countries, we'd need to relax worker safety and environmental regulations and I'm not sure we really want to do that. I don't think even the most pro-business person really wants to go back to the environmental disaster that was late 19th/early 20th century America. Well, except for one or two exceptionally stupid ones who admire the "Gilded Age."

Carbon manufacturing may not be the classic case, but there are a lot of foreign manufacturing jobs we really probably do not want back. It's not just a matter of the cost of consumer goods; those industries or sectors impose a lot of external costs that we don't want to bear.

 

One thing this points out. We don't want ALL manufacturing jobs back in the US.

Carbon frame manufacturing is labor-intensive and involves some nasty chemicals, both from a worker-safety and more general environmental standpoint, ie waste disposal, etc.

To make carbon manufacturing even vaguely competitive with second- or third-world countries, we'd need to relax worker safety and environmental regulations and I'm not sure we really want to do that. I don't think even the most pro-business person really wants to go back to the environmental disaster that was late 19th/early 20th century America.

Carbon manufacturing may not be the classic case, but there are a lot of foreign manufacturing jobs we really probably do not want back. It's not just a matter of the cost of consumer goods; those industries or sectors impose a lot of external costs that we don't want to bear.

You mean you don't want your kids to grow up to make plastics in factories belching out toxic chemicals into our air and water? All so we can pay 5x more than what we are used to?

 

We all live on the same planet; it's going to be painful but we can't continue to tolerate these countries spewing toxics into our atmosphere forever.

 

Fair point. One aspect of "globalization" is that exporting certain nasty jobs to countries will raise the standard of living there and eventually lead to a sort of equalization of environmental and working condition standards, among other things.

If we all just isolate, that will never happen.

 

In 2000 I purchased a K2 Disco Monkey and all XT parts. A flexy aluminum frame and barely functional suspension. Non stop issues with shifting due to a bad front derailleur design. Total cost to the best of my memory was $3k.

In 2014 I purchased a Santa Cruz 5010 carbon frame, Deore parts. Awesome bike but I pretty much replaced every single component because Deore parts all break easy and function horribly even when new. Total cost for the original build was $4,199.

This year I purchased a Yeti SB135 build. Lower end of their carbon build and 2nd step from bottom on components, Sram GX. The components are all amazing out of the box and the only upgrades I am doing are carbon bars, better chain and an oval chainring. This is the best bike I have ever ridden. Total cost for the original build was $4,340.

Adjusted for inflation:
K2 Disco Monkey- $5,603.95
Santa Cruz Solo- $5,682.93
Yeti SB135- $4,340

So the best bike I've ever ridden was the cheapest and I guarantee that the frame and components will be a lot more reliable than the bikes that came before it.

I feel like springing for the highest tier of components is a fools errand. You are subsidizing bike tech for everyone else as the expensive stuff trickles down to the dirt grubs like me, but you aren't realistically gaining much.

I just got back into biking after a 4 year hiatus where I just focused on hiking. I am in Park City right now and not many trails here are open yet so what is open is very crowded. I was surprised to see that the vast majority of riders out there on our systems are on bikes that are much older. I am now seeing most people on much older bikes, including old aluminum frames and I am usually getting passed by these people on climbs as I get my bike legs back. Before, I felt like everyone used to have top of the line bikes and builds. It's a refreshing change to see, but I think this has a lot to do with why I was just able to get such a good deal on a bike from one of the better manufacturers out there.

 

Carbon manufacturing factories playing fast & loose with labor/environmental/safety regulations?

In whose backyard?

What could possibly go wrong?

One could dream take our own long-term self interest to heart and re-shore the dirtiest manufacturing and leverage our vast corporate resources (built on the back toxic manufacturing practices (and worse), btw) specifically to absorb the true cost of clean sustainable production and innovate better techniques and superior replacements, like no other single country could!
And that it be done by the corporations that have benefitted so handsomely until now, but for a fraction of their...
sigh

I'm with you on this. How many lobbyists/billionaires/politicians/corporations are going to be on board?

Hence, dreams and sighs...

 

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