If you've ever pulled a new bike out of the box and put the wheels on a truing stand you'll see how good one of those machines really is......

 

...011101011101010101

now we know you are a computer

 

pffft, like BJ could ever come up with a clever joke like that; BJ only idolized the one who made it......

You're right. What was I thinking.............revoking BJ's benefit of the doubt.

 

The 1st thing that BJ was ever right about.......

Zedro IS an application!

pffft, like BJ could ever come up with a clever joke like that; BJ only idolized the one who made it...011101011101010101, you know what i mean?

 

yes. And it's pretty up here.

The 1st thing that BJ was ever right about.......

Zedro IS an application!

 

yes. And it's pretty up here.

well well

 

You shouldn't make jokes like that.
Zedro, the Moderator program, is linked to SkyNet.

yes. And it's pretty up here.

 

Then it goes back in time and starts asking everyone who walks by if they are Sarah Connor and if so, informs them that they are targeted for termination. Then Sarah Connor shows up all sweaty in a tank top and beats it up. That's just kind of how I always pictured it.

You shouldn't make jokes like that.
Zedro, the Moderator program, is linked to SkyNet.

 

[ Then it goes back in time and starts asking everyone who walks by if they are Sarah Connor and if so, informs them that they are targeted for termination. Then Sarah Connor shows up all sweaty in a tank top and beats it up. That's just kind of how I always pictured it.[/QUOTE]

Amazing- THATS EXACTLY how I pictured it, too!

 

I was under the impression that sometimes spokes have different tensions to hold the rim strait...is that true

i said they can measure tension, i said nothing about keeping the same tension.

BV said it best, this isnt voodoo.

And i wonder if the people arguing for the promising nature of machines are the ones who actually build their own wheels and know what its about, and the ones arguing for the magical craftsman with wheelbuilding pixie dust have their wheels built by the dude they idolize at the shop.

 

That's silly. What can a "craftsman" tell that a machine can't?

The machine can measure how true a wheel is, the tension on the spokes, and how round it is. There's nothing else to it - wheelbuilding is not some magical art that only certain people can master. It's a mechanical process that can be broken down into measurements, not a sculpture or painting.

You guys are silly:

Machines don't use Locktite in their wheelbuilding.

A true "craftsmen" uses Locktite. Only humans can use Locktite.

Machines know nothing of Locktite.

Humans build better wheels because they can use Locktite.

 

sick basstard........

in reality a machine will not know the "little" things that a true master of wheelbuilding would know. (a real good wheel builder...ie craftsman) A caftsman is a person that takes the time to do the job right and not ghetto it...IMO

That's silly. What can a "craftsman" tell that a machine can't?

The machine can measure how true a wheel is, the tension on the spokes, and how round it is. There's nothing else to it - wheelbuilding is not some magical art that only certain people can master. It's a mechanical process that can be broken down into measurements, not a sculpture or painting.

 

To say that a computer cannot do what a human does is a mistake. What I am saying is that the machines building the rims do NOT do it that way.

In reality, a machine achieves tension by tensioning each spoke to correct tension quickly, in effect pulling the rim into dish and true all in one fell swoop. This is how machines build rims currently.
In order to build the "perfect" wheel, the rim needs to be dished, trued(round and side to side), and brought into tension slowly and EVENLY.....

Machines do NOT do that, period.

Kevin

 

I was under the impression that sometimes spokes have different tensions to hold the rim strait...is that true

 

sick basstard........

in reality a machine will not know the "little" things that a true master of wheelbuilding would know. (a real good wheel builder...ie craftsman) A caftsman is a person that takes the time to do the job right and not ghetto it...IMO

the little things...like not knowing the true tension of a spoke, or the trueness to 0.001mm's like a machine can? or are we talking about the trickyness involved in building a low quality rim that doesnt tension well? Skill is a measure of other peoples shortcommings...

 

this is like the dumb 'handmade bikes' argument. The best constructed bikes these days have less and less human involvement; CNC cutting, hydroforming.... Some bikes have machine welded portions (ie simple straight sections) which produce perfect welds. Machines these days can be made to do just about anything better than people.

And the word 'craftmanship' kinda bugs me when used for wheelbuilding. Wheelbuilding is the assembly of a mechanical component, there is no craftmanship involved. Some can assemble them right, others can't, but you'd never call a guy who assembled your car a 'craftsman'.

or worse, calling wheelbuilding an 'art'. Art is the creation of an original piece of work; a good wheelbuilder tries to assemble a wheel correctly each time producing the same result.

Ok i dont know what my point is....

sick basstard........

in reality a machine will not know the "little" things that a true master of wheelbuilding would know. (a real good wheel builder...ie craftsman) A caftsman is a person that takes the time to do the job right and not ghetto it...IMO

 

this is like the dumb 'handmade bikes' argument. The best constructed bikes these days have less and less human involvement; CNC cutting, hydroforming.... Some bikes have machine welded portions (ie simple straight sections) which produce perfect welds. Machines these days can be made to do just about anything better than people.

And the word 'craftmanship' kinda bugs me when used for wheelbuilding. Wheelbuilding is the assembly of a mechanical component, there is no craftmanship involved. Some can assemble them right, others can't, but you'd never call a guy who assembled your car a 'craftsman'.

or worse, calling wheelbuilding an 'art'. Art is the creation of an original piece of work; a good wheelbuilder tries to assemble a wheel correctly each time producing the same result.

Ok i dont know what my point is....

 

not a flame, just counterpoints

First, I am talking about machines that could be built to build wheels. I agree that the machines that we have today are not gonna produce as high a quality a wheel as a craftsman, but that is not what I am talking about. Pretty much a big 'what if,'

In all reality, there is no way that anyone could possibly say that a machine built rim is better than a rim made by a good wheel builder.

There are many things which must be considered.

Machines do not have eyes. They tension all of the spokes to the same tension and get the wheels into round and dish, then finish truing them. The spokes themselves are not creased, and therefore even though the machine may tension correctly, each spoke will untension irregularly.

No, machines don't have eyes, but the laser position and shape change measurment system on one of the machines I use is a heck of a lot more accurate and precise than my eyes. I have excellent eye sight, by the way.

a good wheel builder will take the extra steps to make sure that every spoke is correctly creased before any tension is put on it.

Rim abnormalities are not very well noticeable by a computer(every rim has defects in it when you first recieve it, and a computer has no idea about them, it assumes the rim to be perfectly machined before it ever does anything. However, a good mechanic can work around a bad seem, or a slight wobble in the rim that was created by the original manufacture...shipping etc.

Again, computers and equipment, which could do all of these things better than the human could possibly ever do, already exist. Example 1: Ultrasonic or even x-ray checking of the rims before building could find weak spots inside the aluminium body of the rim and check the weld/plug quality far better than any human, regardless of how careful and experienced he is. Example 2: A.I. programs are a dime a dozen these days. A good program can learn all of the aspects you mention before it even sees its first wheel.

There is a reason that even a high quality wheelset built by a machine will cost less than the exact same wheelset built by a human. Because inherently, a good wheelbuilder will make a stronger, more durable, more easily trueable wheel. Kevin

I agree with respect to the current state of the art, like those dinosaurs posted by shibby. However, I was talking about machines that could be built if there was enough industry interest. Naturally, there is no industry interest in such machines.

To implement many of things I am talking about costs millions of dollars. Even the biggest volume wheel builder is a pretty small fish and could never expect such an investment to pay off. I have seen all of the equipment I have mentioned in automated operation, but the companies using this equipment produce 100s of millions of tons of product every year. As i said in the beginning for me this is nothing but an exercise of the 'what ifs'....

 

I still say craftmanship is better

 

How to build wheels.
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html

 

Sounds to me like the fellas building the wheel building machines need a talking to.

Jobst Brandt has interesting comments about those companies and them accepting improvement ideas. Here are couple of threads about it:
http://groups-beta.google.com/groups?q=jobst+brandt+holland+machine&hl=en&btnG=Google+Search

 

nice nickname.

sambal oolek is good too.

-rob

 

hand built

obviously, a major factor in a quality wheel is the components.
i also think another major factor is to take small methodical steps in tensioning, dishing and truing. i don't know if a machine does this or not, but i don't see why it can't. it's faster to make big moves however, in building a wheel. speed equals more profit. so, my guess is you get what you pay for. i personally build my own wheels and take my time. it's more fun than just buying a machine built wheel, even if it costs more. i'm pretty sure the end product is higher quality too.

 

machine built....crap

In all reality, there is no way that anyone could possibly say that a machine built rim is better than a rim made by a good wheel builder.

There are many things which must be considered.

Machines do not have eyes. They tension all of the spokes to the same tension and get the wheels into round and dish, then finish truing them. The spokes themselves are not creased, and therefore even though the machine may tension correctly, each spoke will untension irregularly.

a good wheel builder will take the extra steps to make sure that every spoke is correctly creased before any tension is put on it.

Rim abnormalities are not very well noticeable by a computer(every rim has defects in it when you first recieve it, and a computer has no idea about them, it assumes the rim to be perfectly machined before it ever does anything. However, a good mechanic can work around a bad seem, or a slight wobble in the rim that was created by the original manufacture...shipping etc.

There is a reason that even a high quality wheelset built by a machine will cost less than the exact same wheelset built by a human. Because inherently, a good wheelbuilder will make a stronger, more durable, more easily trueable wheel.

Kevin

 

Dude, seriously you are arguing a lame point

Deep groove bearings should not be used in a thrust load application. If they are they must be larger and heavier. And hubs do receive thrust loads. Hence they should be using an angular contact bearing.

it isnt a thrust load application, its considered a radial one. There is a minor thrust load component and deep groove can handle that to an extent. The lame argument is saying deep groove can't be used when they are used and quite successfully so. There is always an optimal, but that can also be overkill. In engineering there is always a point called 'good enough', even if there is something technically better (and of course, more expensive).

Now that i use deep groove sealed units, i never have to touch my hubs, unlike the Shimano ones i've been using for years. I also have no need to shell out for pricy CK hubs.