[Lucky13]

So after all those talks about those two types of building up a wheel, the questions raises: does the quality/life of the wheel depend of how spokes are tensioned? What's the difference? Can I buy machine build, loosen it up and re-tension by hand?

Thank you!

 

[zedro]

why, do you consider yourself a top-notch wheelbuilder?

all you need to do is make sure they are true and properly tensioned. Loosening and re-truing wont make it a better wheel.

 

[Lucky13]

No.

Just trying to figure out if there are any differences in a machine build wheel VS hand build. Everyone says not to buy machine build wheels.

From your words I understand it is all about maintaining them properly?

 

[SHIVER ME TIMBERS]

some things are better done by hand ( craftmanship) then by machine

 

[Max_winner1]

from what zedro claims he buys what ever is at hand at a good price

When your money depends on it. Having tight well trued wheels are, and yet better than your machined ones. But yes I have had rims that have lasted me a long time and don't get loose very easy. Tight strong spokes. Stiffness is the key . If you have room for flex in the spokes then your going to have problems. In other words hand built wheels vs some 5 sec machine job does make a difference.

 

[TNC]

Doesn't the machine basically...

So after all those talks about those two types of building up a wheel, the questions raises: does the quality/life of the wheel depend of how spokes are tensioned? What's the difference? Can I buy machine build, loosen it up and re-tension by hand?

Thank you!

assemble the wheel within a certain parameter with the final true actually done by a human? Obviously I guess that machines vary from one to the other too.

 

[zedro]

assemble the wheel within a certain parameter with the final true actually done by a human? Obviously I guess that machines vary from one to the other too.

in some cases i guess, but i think the machines they have are pretty sophisticated now and can get things spot on. There may in fact be no difference, people just want to believe there is no matter what.

i think people believe theres more voodoo to wheel building than there really is.

 

[AL29er]

Depends. Even handbuilt wheels can be lemons if not built by a seasoned mechanic. Some of the main differences between hand and machine built are in the details. Handbuilt wheels will typically have the labels alligned when looking through the spoke hole, the pull spokes will be heads out so they won't sheer if you throw a chain, and the tension will be even across the entire wheel. There is also some debate over the asymmetric way that most machines lace a wheel versus the symmetrical method that most hand builders use.

With about 10 years of wheel building experience I can say that the rim can have a big impact on the wheel build. Cheap rims are typically low quality and usually have defects at the joint that make them impossible to true to 100%. I really like the higher quality mavic rims because they are so easy to build a perfect wheel with.

In the end I don't think there is a huge difference in wheel longevity when using higher quality rims/spokes/hubs by either method. Only if you are pushing the envelope, not maintaining your wheelset, or doing something dumb will you roach a good quality wheel.

 

[Dave K]

in some cases i guess, but i think the machines they have are pretty sophisticated now and can get things spot on. There may in fact be no difference, people just want to believe there is no matter what.

i think people believe theres more voodoo to wheel building than there really is.

My only beef with machine built wheels is that the tension is usually a bit lower than I would like. They are typically straight and laced correctly though. I just find after a few months of use, that the spokes loosen off, whereas the wheels that are built by competent wheelbuilders can go for much longer (sometimes years) between re-tensioning if you don't put too many flat spots into the rim.

Around here, it is usually cheaper to buy a complete machine built wheel than it is for me to buy all the components and build it myself. So if I need a completely new wheel, I buy a machine built wheel and increase the tension a bit so that they hold up better to the abuse they will see.

Dave

 

[Jm.]

The biggest problem I find with machine built wheels is that the dish is usually off. This can be a PITA to fix depending on how far off it is, but usually the tension is fine (although when I re-dish it I have to make sure the tension is good to go again of course).

It varys from week to week, I get some machine built wheels that are nearly perfect and do not even require a tough, but occasionally I get some "wierd" ones.

 

[Jm.]

i think people believe theres more voodoo to wheel building than there really is.

Haha, no kidding. A crazy touring-homeless guy bought a wheelbuilding book, and then kind of hung out at our shop for a few weeks getting ready to build his wheel. He would run all the topics in the book by us, and ask us if we agreed, which sometimes we did not because the topic did not pertain to the kind of wheels that we build. When he found that we did not agree he's always correct us and tell us wierd things that don't make any sense about his own setup. He completely laced one wheel, but forgot to spoke-prep the threads so he completely broke it down and started over, then he ordered the wrong drilling rim for his hub for the 2nd wheel. He's literally spent weeks building 2 wheels, yet if he had listened to us in the first place he could have had just as good of a wheel in a few hours. The guy is paraniod though and I think if his wheel-building book told him to jump off a cliff, he would not be with us today.

 

[desert kid]

tolerances

I used to work for a high-end wheel manufacturer and we looked at getting a wheel-building machine. The problem is that the tolerances are not as close as can be done by hand. The thing that machines cant do is to stress relieve wheels during the building process. Try this, when you get your hands on a machine built wheel just flex it over you lap and hear all the spokes ping from wind up. (And remember, every time a spoke pops a fairy gets its wings.)

Not to mention that the machines quite often mess of the nipples and the rim.

I found that a good way to do it is to re- nipple the machine build wheel. This is probably the cheapest and most time intensive up grade one can do.

It is best to leave this kind of tensioning to an experienced builder, however, there is only one way to gain this type of experience and that is to do it.

 

[chuffer]

Sounds to me like the fellas building the wheel building machines need a talking to.

1. Controlling the precision (tension, truing, dish, round, lace pattern, etc.) of the build should not be a problem using a machine. Laser measurment of true, for example, should be better than any truing stand.
2. Pre-stressing (or whatever you want to call it) the wheels to eliminate wind up and seat the spokes could also be achieved using a machine.
3. Lining up the hub label w/the valve hole could also be done by a machine.
4. Poor handling (damaging) of the rim, spokes and/or spoke nipples is the sign of a poorly designed/manufactured or worn out machine.

I really don't see anything involved in wheel building that couldn't be done (better?) by machine. The problem is that the machine would be fairly complex. QA/QC/QM equipment and processes, which could be used or adapted to address all of the problems mentioned thus far, exist. It is a question of whether or not big volume wheel builders see the need to spend the cash to move into the late 20th century or not. Apparently they don't. :shrug:

 

[desert kid]

True, However

What you say is absolutely true. The technology in control systems does exist to make good wheels via advanced wheel tensioning machines. But, alas, the bike industry does no real innovation or engineering. They want it cheap and they want it fast. Sadly the industry will probably never take advantage of the proper technology in any application. It is a cheap and small sport that just doesnt have the funding to do any real engineering. The only company that does it right is Shimano.

Most hub companies can't even use a proper angular contact bearing in a hub for *&% sakes. Enigineering 101 my friends.

 

[zedro]

Most hub companies can't even use a proper angular contact bearing in a hub for *&% sakes. Enigineering 101 my friends.

because the ones who do end up with heavy boat anchor hubs which always loose the proper pre-load and end up needing more maintenance than anything else. Eng 101 tells me you dont need angular contact bearings for hubs; the highest quality hubs on the market dont use em, nor need em.

 

[desert kid]

naw uh

Arguably the highest end hubs on the market, Chris King use…(drum roll please) angular contact bearings. Also, (not arguably) Chris King hubs are some of the lightest hubs on the market.

Another example: All Shimano hubs including high end and lightweight XTR hubs are…. angular contact bearings.

The two I have listed as an example are (arguably) some of the most durable and maintenance free hubs on the market as well.

Angular Contact bearings are the proper way to go on a combined radial and thrust load. Yes it is true that one can use a deep groove bearing to take some trust load but the bearing must be sized up so much that it will be come a weight detriment. The equivalent rated angular contact bearing will be much smaller than its deep groove counter part.

I do believe this contradicts your "boat anchor heavy " argument.

 

[chuffer]

because the ones who do end up with heavy boat anchor hubs which always loose the proper pre-load and end up needing more maintenance than anything else. Eng 101 tells me you dont need angular contact bearings for hubs; the highest quality hubs on the market dont use em, nor need em.

it's all a question of what the design criteria are....

6:30 pm and way too much debugging time today....buhbye

 

[kidwoo]

So I check every wheel I get when I'm not building them myself (except mavic wheels, those things are flawless).

But I just want to SEE one of these wheelbuilding machines. That has got to be something neat to watch.

 

[zedro]

Arguably the highest end hubs on the market, Chris King use…(drum roll please) angular contact bearings. Also, (not arguably) Chris King hubs are some of the lightest hubs on the market.

Another example: All Shimano hubs including high end and lightweight XTR hubs are…. angular contact bearings.

The two I have listed as an example are (arguably) some of the most durable and maintenance free hubs on the market as well.

I do believe this contradicts your "boat anchor heavy " argument.

no, Shimano hubs are boat anchors, and some of the highest maintenance hubs out there. They are who i was referiing to (and keep in mind, we are in the DH forum here so puny XTR non-disk qr hubs arent in order).

Also as far as i can tell, CK does not use angular contact bearings, not in their front hubs, not in their rears (http://www.chrisking.com/pdfs/CLASSIC-front.pdf http://www.chrisking.com/pdfs/CLASSIC-rear.pdf). Regardless, there are plenty of other high quality hubs who dont either.

 

[235536]

So I check every wheel I get when I'm not building them myself (except mavic wheels, those things are flawless).

But I just want to SEE one of these wheelbuilding machines. That has got to be something neat to watch.

I was wondering... These machines, are they automated wheel tensioning? Or do they actually build it - do they really take a spoke, lace it through the hub, pull it up through the eyelet, and thread a nipple on it?

I figured the wheels were just thrown together hastily by hand and tensioned on the machine...