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Absolutely 100% agree and have the same problem, not the fastest descender if we put-put our way up the climb(s) and then wait around at the top BSing before we start the descents, but put some pace to the top and then go straight into the DH, suddenly I'm not so slow DH anymore because I'm fitter and recover faster while the other guys are still trying to recover and not "up to speed". To me, like LD, that is also a big part of MTBing which a lot of riders don't get, most think lets suffer to the top as slowly as our easiest gear will allow, then BS for 5 minutes before we hit the DH. Being able to apply skills when your flat/maxed out is the teller for what skills you really have.

Until you include the fatigue component, you're failing to address a very key factor. It's basically a different sport.

Let's apply this to a "skill based sport". Rifle marksmanship, for example. I had plenty of Soldiers that could outshoot me with an M4, pistol, etc. I was an OK shot, but barely in the top half in my platoon. Maybe I punch into the top third on a GREAT day.

Now, throw in a 2 mile run, at <8min pace, with full combat load (60lbs+), make them load a magazine and shoot from one knee, around a corner, running from position to position. I suddenly become a top 3 guy, of 40 plus dudes.
 
I'll argue that combining what Fleas and Lynx are talking about right there is a BIG part of why injuries still happen.

Most people who just want to go ride are just shooting for the minimum skill level to feel confident - which works provided they're not getting that tired, or sore from riding for an extended period of time, or starting to feel the effects from heat/dehydration/low nutritional energy/poor VO2 conditioning... then that bare minimum skill approach very quickly becomes inadequate for the terrain and speed, and crashes happen.

The statistics on WHEN (during the day) those crashes go down are really quite telling.

LeDuke - I'm absolutely and totally with you. I was a bottom quartile scorer on the standard PFT testing, but I was always one of the fast three in my battalion for the combat fitness test maneuver under fire test, despite having to fireman carry guys 20lb or more heavier than me. Same deal with marksmanship under duress - not a range high scorer on fixed range slow fire, but the last three qualifications I dropped precisely one round out of 200+ on the rapid fire, and Table II-III qualifications (the latter two in full gear). It's not that I'm a very good shot, I just knew how to 'suck less' when I'm tired - something I'm still not good at mountain biking.

Fundamentally, it's just that the types that are always trying to grow their skill envelope and execution of precision are going to wind up being more skilled because of time spent critically evaluating their own skill application. Without that step, the tendency is almost always to be 'good enough', which is good enough until it isn't. When I'm pushing pace nonstop up over the top of a climb into the descent, my skillset totally meets the heuristic of 'good enough... until it isn't'.
 
Some riders want to get better... they'll actively search out information on how to improve their skillset..


Others just want to ride... If parts are too hard they'll walk.

They still ride 80% of what everyone else does (ymmv)

I'm in the first group, I want to improve - be the best I can be etc.

Life is busy, and by the time I have enough time to be able to truly practice skills ^^ I'll be too bloody old >.<

PS - getting into the sport and learning skills as a kid is the way to go for mind...
None of my riding buddies like to huck, they'll go the chicken route. I don't practice huckin, but as a kid that's what we did - finding jumps, making jumps i.e. repetition... & that skill has stayed with me... I love getting airborne =)

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#1 resolution... Ride it like I stole it!!
 
I'd like to have this discussion without the defensive responses, if possible. This is not an anti XC racing post. I'm advocating for skills progression, which in itself should offend nobody.

The simplest way I can put it is this:

The average rider(or average XC racer) could benefit greatly from a skills clinic or some personal skills instruction/practice. Not replacing fitness training, but in addition to it; in balance with it. It would enhance riding enjoyment, speed, flow, and efficiency for most riders who ride for typical reasons, and with typical ambitions. The average rider knows and recognizes this to be true.

Despite recognizing this, and in contrast with most skill based sports, the average rider will likely not choose to do anything about it. It is cultural and widespread.

I'm simply asking: What are the reasons that this is the case? What are the barriers? I seek understanding.
I consider myself an average rider (or at least average in Colorado Springs where there are really fast folk), and I'm quite sure my problem is the opposite. I am confident in my skills, but lack of time due to work, kids, and other interests means fitness is my struggle.

So I bought a road bike.

Which begs the question - who exactly is Mr. Average Rider?
 
Nice discussion here. I've got so far to progress in all areas, and would love to do a full on skills camp, but short of that i've learned a lot from youtube and some local riders and continue to apply my understanding to my riding every time i'm out.

I'm still quite young in the sport, and my skills are progressing faster than my cardio, but i'm trying to grow evenly in both regards. I have some chronic health issues that have made it difficult for me to push too hard with my fitness, but nonetheless i'm still growing slowly. I learned on a hardtail bike, and then decided to go fs, ending up with a bike on the burly/longer travel end of the spectrum, which has definitely has put me in the slow up the hill faster down camp, although that wasn't my intention. I'm thinking in time pushing my fitness with a heavier bike will pay off. I'm starting to get out of my granny gear on my 1x more now, that feels like progress. =)

I love technical climbing, it's one of my favorite mtb pursuits, but am often limited by my fitness in these situations too. I spend time sessioning things but have yet to learn how to tackle a steep rock ladder without exerting a lot of juice. I'm sure these skills will grow in time.

All of this is somewhat of a tangent from the OP's question, but I agree with many here; it does seem to have a lot to do with where you ride. If you are really interested in expanding your skills that won't hold you back, but I don't think most people are. Most of the local riders here haven't even ventured beyond our local flow network up to Grand Junction to ride (which is about an hour and a half away). I try to get up there every week. The networks there absolutely fantastic for practicing technical skills, and will probably always have features beyond my skill set.
 
PS - getting into the sport and learning skills as a kid is the way to go for mind...
None of my riding buddies like to huck, they'll go the chicken route. I don't practice huckin, but as a kid that's what we did - finding jumps, making jumps i.e. repetition... & that skill has stayed with me... I love getting airborne =)
Yeah, riding BMX bikes as a kid and jumping anything and everything in sight has stuck with me as well. Same for bunny hops, manuals, wheelies, stoppies, etc.
 
Yeah, riding BMX bikes as a kid and jumping anything and everything in sight has stuck with me as well. Same for bunny hops, manuals, wheelies, stoppies, etc.
I was pretty good at wheelies back in the day - 4 to 5 lamposts if memory serves correctly. Now it's probably half a lampost.

I think I'm better now at bunny hopping, but I suck at manualing (shouldn't they go together!?)

Have to get better so I can teach my kids ;-)

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#1 resolution... Ride it like I stole it!!
 
I'd like to have this discussion without the defensive responses, if possible. This is not an anti XC racing post. I'm advocating for skills progression, which in itself should offend nobody.

The simplest way I can put it is this:

The average rider(or average XC racer) could benefit greatly from a skills clinic or some personal skills instruction/practice. Not replacing fitness training, but in addition to it; in balance with it. It would enhance riding enjoyment, speed, flow, and efficiency for most riders who ride for typical reasons, and with typical ambitions. The average rider knows and recognizes this to be true.

Despite recognizing this, and in contrast with most skill based sports, the average rider will likely not choose to do anything about it. It is cultural and widespread.

I'm simply asking: What are the reasons that this is the case? What are the barriers? I seek understanding.
I don't necessarily agree with your assumptions. The XC racers in my area tend to be quite skilled, particularly when your measurement is skills required for success in XC racing (single track speed, technical climbing, small jumps and small drops on XC equipement).

But you are right, just about everyone can benefit from skills practice and racers (of all displines) do not do it enough. Part of the reason why people don't do it is because there is risk involved.

If I really what to improve my cornering I need to practice cornering at the absolute limit and going over the limit leads to crashing. Crashing hurts and even the most innocent crashes can cause injuries. Most of us reach what we decide is a sufficient skill level and then stop pushing our limits.
 
....So what is the average mountain bike skill ... Can they hop/jump/manual/track stand/pump/etc? ...
XC/trail rider, I'd say no. The average around here (Socal) don't have these skills. At best they can cleanly descent/ascend a Blue intermediate trail, they walking the Double black diamond stuff. The average shuttle/gravity monkey have these skills but don't know how to ride a bike up a hill without assistance.
....Is skill development and self improvement a fundamental part of mountain biking? Any reasonable discussion welcomed. ...
I ride with many weekend warriors who have been mtbing for 20+ yrs who are not strong/don't have these skills and still loving the sport so it depends on the rider.

I myself would be very bored if my riding skills did not continually progress. We've all ridden trails that have been "dumbed" down by someone not interested in progressing their skills, these riders do exist.
 
learning skills such as proper corning and body english can definitely help you carry momentum/speed and that benefits all rider from gravity to xc, because the more speed you can conserve= the more energy you conserve. Which means you can ride more! Same goes for bunny hops and pumping.

Video of yourself practicing helps quite a bit (and not just first person vid).
It was funny to watch myself doing things I thought for sure I had dialed and were completely wrong.
 
learning skills such as proper corning and body english can definitely help you carry momentum/speed and that benefits all rider from gravity to xc, because the more speed you can conserve= the more energy you conserve. Which means you can ride more! Same goes for bunny hops and pumping.

Video of yourself practicing helps quite a bit (and not just first person vid).
It was funny to watch myself doing things I thought for sure I had dialed and were completely wrong.
I think this is what I need to do. I've been riding for nearly a year, but only as primary exercise for a few months (running used to take priority - I was stupid) and while my fitness is pretty good for a fat guy, my skills need work. What I feel like is right is probably wrong but only one way to find out. I thought just riding would make it happen eventually, and I've made some good strides recently by making friends and riding with a guy who's got decades of experience (he was AZ state champion twice and has done the Leadville 100), but I think a tripod and camera off to the side of a nearby grass field and some low speed cornering 'obstacles' would benefit me a great deal.

Thanks for the ideas, great thread folks, even if it wasn't necessarily what was intended.
 
I consider myself an average rider (or at least average in Colorado Springs where there are really fast folk), and I'm quite sure my problem is the opposite. I am confident in my skills, but lack of time due to work, kids, and other interests means fitness is my struggle.

So I bought a road bike.

Which begs the question - who exactly is Mr. Average Rider?
This. There is no such thing as the 'average' rider. I can ride down or through just about anything that has a trail through it. There are a few obstacles I'll encounter on a double black DH run at a resort that give me trouble, or cause me to walk, but I very rarely encounter something on local Wasatch front rides, popular Moab trails, etc., that gives me any trouble.

But uphill is another story -- I can make the average climbs, sure, but not with any speed. My conditioning is not great.

My Strava results seem to support this -- I'm 5-25th percentile on virtually all of the downhill segments I ride very often, and in bottom quarter of virtually all uphill segments.

So that begs the question, am I average?
 
So are bunny hopping, manualing, etc above average skills? I always felt like once you could do these on the trail, in an actual situation... you had reach intermediate level kung fu.
 
Read for a wordy cross post? Something slightly related to MTB skills that I have been stewing for a few seasons riding with a lot of mixed skill groups. It's posted in "Passion".

Warning....it's long.

"Do we consider ourselves experts?
Do we say with confidence that we, “Could ride anything.”?
Do we hit all the jumps on the flow trails and all those gnarly 6 footers at the over-ridden town bike park?
Well, we must be an expert then. All those trails are marked expert, and our friends who have been riding for at least 5 years still can’t find the trigger when they eye up Gnar-Rock while we’ve been hitting it “Forever”. Pat ourselves on the back, we have arrived, but let’s don’t break our arms doing it, that plateau in skill we have worked so hard to ascend to is likely the land of the terminal intermediate.


Relax. This is not an insult. It’s a compliment. We’ve already won by not quitting the sport of “Mountain Biking” (whatever that is these days) and now poses the basics that could, if we remain open-minded, and obsessed, serve as the foundation for true expert abilities one day. It’s likely that it could take some time so settle in and be prepared for a long grind….oh and injuries.


First things first. Expert. Intermediate. Poser. These are subjective by nature so let us set the bar high. Let us not consider being the best rider in our group, or the best at the Killington race last weekend, not even some coaching credentials we may have attained to validate our ability, as those accolades are irrelevant. Let us instead compare ourselves to the folks who have truly achieved mastery of skill on a bicycle. You know….the best riders in the world. They are experts. Going forward, let us consider these the standard we are trying to achieve. Why? Because humility, and an openness to accept our short-comings is the only perspective that will allow us to continually improve our skillset, mindset, and fitness and keep us progressing towards true mastery.


So at this point a large group of MTBers reading this just rolled their eyes. Sadly for them, they are a lost cause. For the rest of us, putting ourselves in the same realm as MacAskill, or Gwynn may stoke that fire a bit as we roll into Spring. Even if we are the bottom-dwellers of that realm, it’s a place to start and we just raised our ceiling by affirming to ourselves that we suck at riding and have a long hill to climb before someone of true genius might consider us experts, and not in our small ponds, but out in the big, wide world. It’s easy for us to be consumed by that fire when we accept that we are “beginners”. Every endeavor in an activity we approach as learners yields a better understanding of the physics, the psychology, and the tactics of that activity.

Conversely, any time we go out and ride that trail we’ve ridden so many times on the same line we’ve chosen so many times, as if we have it all figured out, we essentially learn nothing, or close to it. We need to seek out adversity to grow, not flow trails and more suspension, or that dropper post. While these things are nice, and can offer an easier path or easy thrills through engineering, those of us truly driven to realize our full potential will, many times, shun these amenities for a more raw, and humbling experience.

So how do we smash down barriers that are holding us back? Assuming we are competent trail riders, the next step is easy, and counter-intuitive. Quit trail riding. Go to the hardware store, buy ourselves a good flat shovel, and go to the local DJs. Spend the majority of our time there for the next 3 years or so. An even better exercise would be to dig you own jumps from scratch as you will train your eye to the physics of jumping more completely then just showing up and having someone show you the proper speed for DJ lines. Break the lines down jump at a time. Dial in the first jump without hitting the second many times. Get used to committing to dropping the front tire. Make sure we are landing at the top of the transition. Then link 2, same process. Then 3. If we case or over-jump pull out. Reread that last sentence to ourselves about 1000 times. This is how we don’t get hurt. Inevitably, we will forget this lesson while caught up in a session full of progress and fun. We will case, or over-jump and try and make the next set. In the downtime you have while your collarbone heals, dig.

Trials is the other discipline we need to incorporate into our skillset. This is essentially low speed balance while standing on our pedals. Just like at the DJs, this is not done sitting on your seat like a bar stool. Even if our seat is up at a position conducive to spinning, we can still be up, standing on our feet for technical section. Riding these sections seated, particularly on full suspension bikes will not teach us to control our front AND rear tires. Instead we will develop a habit of driving our front tire while letting our rear tire meet features while weighted, with the suspension allowing this poor technique to be overlooked or even embraced. Fore-aft balance and weight shifting is the key here and we have to feel what the bike is doing through your feet, not our butts to learn to jump, absorb, and boost or pop on our J-hops.

Most of us will not achieve expert status in our lifetimes. We should aim for that level though. If we, as trail riders, learn to DJ at an intermediate level, and learn even the most basic of trials skills and bring those abilities, and the eye for new ridable lines and features back to the single tracks we should still not consider ourselves experts. Those quantifications are best left for others to bestow upon us. For ourselves, we should always consider ourselves as students of the bicycle and realize that we can always learn something from anybody, whether that be attitude or technique. Positive or negative, lessons are everywhere and can come from anyone if we put our egos aside, and be confident without closing the door to personal progression. Now repeat after me, “I suck at Mountain Biking!” Now go ride your Bike! Happy Spring! "
 
So true about riding stuff with a hr redlined.

10 plus years ago I was racing Super D and AM oriented racing, and even xc stuff - cornering properly, riding skinnies, tech climbing, even hucking, when you approach at mach speed, while your hr is redlined - that's a whole different animal. I find I'm a much more skilled rider now but it likely wouldn't hold together at race pace.

Kinda like the bedroom musician vs the guy who can pull off entertaining the drunken, screaming crowd who's screaming all the wrong lyrics.
This has tons of truth in it. In one of my other hobbies, BJJ/Submission grappling, I am constantly talking about this with the new, young, big, strong white belts. They go so hard for about 3 minutes, and are difficult to submit in that initial burst. Then they realize I'm not breathing hard when they are exhausted and they get tapped like a maple tree for the rest of the roll. When you're gassed out, you're done doing anything skillfully.

I used to ride fast all the time. Now I try and ride as smooth as I can with as much creativity and style that I can. It's a lot more fun for me. My pace is more conducive to riding with mixed groups. A trialsy, BMX-y style is more of an all body fitness deal and since I ride a heavy, SS HT with big forks I get my heart rate up plenty just making the climbs. I still feel like I'm getting better at 42, which keeps me interested whereas to maintain my cardio at or above where I was at 28 riding 7-8 times a week would require an unattainable level of commitment and honestly, for me, I just don't care anymore is someone can spin faster than me. I want to ride clean, with as little pedaling and braking as I can making the most of the trail irregularities instead of avoiding them in search of fast strava times. The beauty of the Bicycle is it's versatility, and we should all be honest with ourselves about how we see ourselves riding in our dreams, and focus on that. Personal growth is where the fun is IMO.
 
I'm still waiting for someone to define "average."
Middle 85 percent of the bell curve. To me in Biking it means basic understanding and utilization of gears, and brakes. Good fitness and the ability to ride 10 miles at least in a couple hours. Ability to deal with some roots, and some rocks without dismounting. Some bunny hopping, but done generally incorrectly, using clipless pedals. Very little ability to wheelie out of the saddle, jump, manual. Good low speed balance seated. Most average riders have very little comfort with big fore-aft weight shifts and can pump somewhat but are fearful of hitting a jump with a lip taller then say 2 feet. This is the plateau I see most riders get to, and stay at for a long time. Basically, they have the skills to ride, but lack style and true dynamic movements.
 
The average rider(or average XC racer) could benefit greatly from a skills clinic or some personal skills instruction/practice. Not replacing fitness training, but in addition to it; in balance with it. It would enhance riding enjoyment, speed, flow, and efficiency for most riders who ride for typical reasons, and with typical ambitions. The average rider knows and recognizes this to be true.

Despite recognizing this, and in contrast with most skill based sports, the average rider will likely not choose to do anything about it. It is cultural and widespread.

I'm simply asking: What are the reasons that this is the case? What are the barriers? I seek understanding.
I wonder how many of those average and below-average riders actually have done the skills clinics, done the practice, watched the videos, practiced more, and still fail to improve our skills.

I can't be the only one.

Of course, most people who find they have no talent for a sport will give up eventually, but mountain biking is different. One does not have to be competitive at any level to enjoy it.
 
Middle 85 percent of the bell curve. To me in Biking it means basic understanding and utilization of gears, and brakes. Good fitness and the ability to ride 10 miles at least in a couple hours. Ability to deal with some roots, and some rocks without dismounting. Some bunny hopping, but done generally incorrectly, using clipless pedals. Very little ability to wheelie out of the saddle, jump, manual. Good low speed balance seated. Most average riders have very little comfort with big fore-aft weight shifts and can pump somewhat but are fearful of hitting a jump with a lip taller then say 2 feet. This is the plateau I see most riders get to, and stay at for a long time. Basically, they have the skills to ride, but lack style and true dynamic movements.
End thread.
 
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