[evdog]

There are rocks about but not big paving type rocks. What about actual pavers like I see at some parks out West here (Northstar and Mammoth)?

Pavers would work great to help hold the trail surface in place. With dry, loose dirt you will always have problems with ruts forming and material getting dragged around by tires even if people aren't intentionally dragging their brakes. I'd put the pavers below the corner and right through the switchback turn. I'd put them above it for a ways too, if possible, to prevent braking bumps. This will help with climbing traction too, big time. Of course pavers have to be carried in, so access may determine what distance you're willing to pave. I've seen wooden snow fencing laid down on Navajo Rocks in Moab.

You mention the section below the switchback being fairly steep. Is there any way to adjust the trail alignment so it climbs up sooner, leaving a more gentle grade into the turn? Ideally when laying out a switchback you want to minimize grades both below it and above it, so when you connect the two with a climbing turn, that turn will have a reasonable grade. A gentler grade above also means riders won't have to break as hard into the turn - even better if you can have a short uphill into it to bleed off some speed, as someone mentioned.

If pavers don't look like they will work out, I've successfully laid down thick stucco wire over a steeper trail surface to help hold it together. It provides grip when climbing and descending helps prevent ruts from forming. It will be higher maintenance but where I used it, it lasted 4-5 years before needing replacement. In Moab I also noticed with interest that they laid down wooden snow fencing on a section of Navajo Rocks. Seemed to work well there too, although it could be too wide for bench cut singletrack.

 

[endo_alley]

Any rocks set in the tread should be quite large. 175-200 lb minimum and dug in fairly deep.

 

[DaveVt]

Any rocks set in the tread should be quite large. 175-200 lb minimum and dug in fairly deep.

Disagree. Crushed stone of variable size with dirt mixed in a properly compacted will be stable. Your solution is more ideal, but less versatile as you need large rocks with the right shapes close by.

 

[endo_alley]

Disagree. Crushed stone of variable size with dirt mixed in a properly compacted will be stable. Your solution is more ideal, but less versatile as you need large rocks with the right shapes close by.

The USFS won't let us use anything smaller in the tread. With the exception being a Turnpike filled with crushed rock.

 

[DaveVt]

The USFS won't let us use anything smaller in the tread. With the exception being a Turnpike filled with crushed rock.

Has nothing to do with what works and what doesn't work. I'll trust my experience over federal guide lines on trail construction.

 

[KRob]

The back slope is the uphill edge you left when you cut into the slope. In your photo it looks almost vertical. That will not be stable. You should cut it back with your hoe to be slope as shallow an angle as you can, although it will always be pretty steep as the slope you're working on is steep.

Pavers could work, but also smashed rock will settle in if the rock breaks up enough. It might be a bit loose at first. If you mix dirt into the rock as you smash it it will settle in.

Oh, Ok. Actually that vertical back slope on the top of the switchback is nearly solid, somewhat soft limestone rock. It also extends onto the actual trail surface right at the top so it's pretty stable (took quite a bit of pick work to dig that back slope). That also helped me make a small upgrade coming into the turn from the top just before the rock. So that gives you some natural slowing of momentum into the turn going down. Also the turn off the top of the ridge is a ninety degree affair only 30-40 feet before that so that slows thing down too.

Having the berm fairly built up allows the turn to flow really nice without a ton of speed (5-10 mph) through the switch back and the bermed up landing area up against that tree keeps the visual line back onto the trail below the switchback, preventing folks from overshooting the switchback and ending up rolling head over heals down that steep side hill.

evdog: The trail just before the switch back when climbing is reasonably flat (maybe 3-5% grade) for a good 20-30ft and allows you to get a pretty good run at the steep switch back. I haven't cleaned it yet going up but if I can incorporate some pavers right on the steepest section and at the bottom I think it would be doable for most folks that would be climbing this trail (no small feat in and of itself) and would hold up much better for the inevitable wheel dragging while descending. Making the switchback going down should be straightforward for any intermediate to advanced rider. It flows nice. Beginners could do it, but would be sketched out by the steepness I imagine.

Fortunately this is the final switchback near the bottom of the trail so getting pavers up to it shouldn't be too tough. I'll look into that. In fact I'm liking the idea of pavers more as I think about it. That short semi-solid rock section at the top could become a ledge if the part right below it starts washing away with traffic and rain. I'm not sure smaller rocks packed into that section would hold up long in that dirt. It was already full of 1-3" rocks as I was digging it out and they didn't offer much support/resistance. I think packed down with some moisture it would hold for a year or two, but this dirt gets loose pretty quick with much wheel spinning out or sliding.

 

[endo_alley]

Switchback? Or climbing turn? The vertical back slope on the inside of the turn looks to be dirt, and not rock. Maybe an optical illusion in the photo. But I would still recommend that a professional walk your trail if possible. Who is the land manager? Maybe they could give input. Or is it private property?

 

[KRob]

Switchback? Or climbing turn? The vertical back slope on the inside of the turn looks to be dirt, and not rock. Maybe an optical illusion in the photo. But I would still recommend that a professional walk your trail if possible. Who is the land manager? Maybe they could give input. Or is it private property?

Yes, more of a climbing turn. And yes the inside of the turn is mostly dirt (and a tree stump).
And yes, I would love for a professional to walk the trail. This is an approved, flagged trail on FS land that was built 100% by hand with volunteer labor. Mostly me. Unfortunately the land manager knows almost nothing about trail building for mtbs . We did have a professional come out this week to work on some trail planning and routing for our future trail network and he did ride the trail though I wasn't with him and haven't gotten his input on the trail yet. I'm sure he has some suggestions.

Other than an IMBA trail building weekend I attended several years ago, some reading on the internet, and just riding and studying a bunch of trails in 20 years of mountain biking, my education has been mostly on the job. It's interesting to see how my trail building has developed over the past five summers building this trail from top to bottom and I've learned a lot. However, I'm sure it's going to need some additional work and a few reroutes to bring it up to accepted sustainable standards.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[endo_alley]

It's great that you are putting such an effort into building the trail. Users of the finished trail will probably never appreciate the man hours and challenges of building the trail. Around where I live, the Forest Service micro manages every aspect of trail placement and trail building practices. Biologists and hydrologists study trail placement too. And would never defer that power to the guys (and girls) swinging a pick and pushing a shovel. So you have a unique situation.

 

[KRob]

It's great that you are putting such an effort into building the trail. Users of the finished trail will probably never appreciate the man hours and challenges of building the trail. Around where I live, the Forest Service micro manages every aspect of trail placement and trail building practices. Biologists and hydrologists study trail placement too. And would never defer that power to the guys (and girls) swinging a pick and pushing a shovel. So you have a unique situation.

Thanks. Yes, it's been a labor of love and I have to say a bit of an obsession. My wife considers this trail my mistress, Ha ha. I never thought I would ever get this excited about trail building. Very addictive (and oddly therapeutic). I've close to 1000 hours up there over the past 5 summers.

We are fortunate (?) to have a lot of latitude with the FS as far as building on this trail and designing and expanding our trail network. We do have a trails advocacy group, The Great Basin Trails Alliance (GBTA) of which I am a board member. We are small and only have a handful of guys and gals that get involved but we have a very good prospect for getting a rather large grant in the next year or two to help fund some new trails so hopefully in the future the building and design will be left to professionals and machines. LOL.

 

[endo_alley]

I am sure after you have tackled all the obstacles and thought out all the best solutions you will be one of the experts. I guess my previous points were that once you have a working trail that is pretty much it. You can repair features. But the layout will always remain pretty true to what you have built. So think it out well. When I say get professionals to help, it is not meant to be derogatory remark. We can all learn something from people who have design experience. Sometimes they will see a solution that never crossed your mind. I wish we had more decision making discretion around here. Sometimes the trail builders will have a novel idea. But the people on top already have their minds made up. So we may have to build sections that we really may not have our heart in. But after a few years of riding in, most trails improve.

 

[KRob]

I am sure after you have tackled all the obstacles and thought out all the best solutions you will be one of the experts. I guess my previous points were that once you have a working trail that is pretty much it. You can repair features. But the layout will always remain pretty true to what you have built. So think it out well. When I say get professionals to help, it is not meant to be derogatory remark. We can all learn something from people who have design experience. Sometimes they will see a solution that never crossed your mind. I wish we had more decision making discretion around here. Sometimes the trail builders will have a novel idea. But the people on top already have their minds made up. So we may have to build sections that we really may not have our heart in. But after a few years of riding in, most trails improve.

Oh, absolutely. Even though I think I have learned a lot over the course of construction, I know experts could give input/solutions that I hadn't even thought of. In fact when we had our professional trail builder/planner come out to get some ideas going for our 5 year trail network plan he wanted to look at some of our older existing network (he used to work as a rec planner here) and I was like, "No, those trails are fine. Let's just build more new ones". but when he presented his plan to us he made some suggestions for our existing network that made a lot of sense and would make the trail way more fun/interesting.

 

[DaveVt]

Thanks. Yes, it's been a labor of love and I have to say a bit of an obsession. My wife considers this trail my mistress, Ha ha. I never thought I would ever get this excited about trail building. Very addictive (and oddly therapeutic). I've close to 1000 hours up there over the past 5 summers.

We are fortunate (?) to have a lot of latitude with the FS as far as building on this trail and designing and expanding our trail network. We do have a trails advocacy group, The Great Basin Trails Alliance (GBTA) of which I am a board member. We are small and only have a handful of guys and gals that get involved but we have a very good prospect for getting a rather large grant in the next year or two to help fund some new trails so hopefully in the future the building and design will be left to professionals and machines. LOL.

The trail building becomes the most rewarding experience, I have found. Once you ride so many trails, you come to realize the trail is the experience, and you can just hope to ride it well enough to really absorb what a trail is offering. Creating that out of natural surroundings, and having it ride as you envisioned, or watching a skilled rider interface with trail you have created, and watching them ride it just as you had imagined is awesome. So hard to build what you see being ridden in your head. Everyone who rides should dig.

 

[KRob]

Your vertical back slope is no bueno. You'll generate a good bit of material from cutting that back.
$.02

Yes, I understand now what you're saying about the vertical backslope and I have been trying to slope those more going forward. Once I finish the trail (I'm nearly at the end) I'll go back and start pulling some material off that back slope just before the turn. Now that the dirt is moist with rain and snow it'll be easier to build up and pack in that ramp up to the turn. Thanks for the suggestion.

Literally six feet to go after this morning's dig.....then I can go back and start fixing some of my early learning mistakes.

 

[prooperator]

Krob,
I think the best solution would have been a switchback in your case. That climbing turn looks steep from the down hill side. i have build a lot of trail and a switch back would have served you better. The switchback would allow an easier transition because the upper leg and lower leg would be closer to the same elevation. Turn the upper leg into the hillside more and create a pitcher's mound shape and then bring the lower leg in level for 5-10 feet and then let the lower leg tie back into the flag line.

 

[Boris Badenov]

How did it turn out? I have seen maybe 2 well built switchbacks in my life. Even the picture in the IMBA Building Better Trails book shows a poorly designed rolling crown switchback. From entry to exit, you have to make certain there is zero change in elevation. Zero. It has to be flat. Also, make it as wide as possible and teardrop shaped. Just because one expert rider on a small framed bike can ride around a switchback without dabbing, does not mean you designed it well.

Let's say you are climbing up an 8% grade. Bring it to 0% slope and build your switchback. Then maybe 5-10 feet away from the turn, return to an 8% grade. What a good switchback often requires is a massive retaining wall, so it can be wide and flat, to last long and hold up to horses and bikers.

Here is some pictures of a serpentine trail we built as part of a reroute. It required two switchbacks about forty feet apart. We had to jack-hammer a lot of solid rock to create the wide turn platform, as well as build a serious retaining wall below both switchbacks.

Just try not to walk away thinking; that's close enough, that's good enough. Keep digging. Be thankful you aren't on top of a rock slab. Just keep making the upper part lower and lower and lower, until it is a perfectly flat platform. It will last for centuries. But also dig back into the hillside until you have a wide turning platform as well. It can never be too wide. A great switchback can take a five person crew a couple days to build, if it is on good soil. If it is on rock, it can take a week or more.

Post more pictures, Krob.