for now fillet brazed. tig welding will be used eventually for the seattube to BB. we will be doing batches of the basic frames. pricing has yet to be fully figured out, but for the basic frames and 3 base powdercoat options itll be under 1500

Good luck.

 

for now fillet brazed. tig welding will be used eventually for the seattube to BB. we will be doing batches of the basic frames. pricing has yet to be fully figured out, but for the basic frames and 3 base powdercoat options itll be under 1500

 

If you want an easy market to hit then build the bike to target the clyde market. Just about any quality bike on the market today targets people in the 180 lb range. Build a big beefy frame & target the clyde market. More people are riding bikes now then ever & a good beefy frame that is targeted to clydes would be a great way to go.

I could not agree more.. but to elaborate a little more build it as a bike that rides well. There seems to be a huge gap between the bike targeted at the 180lb rider and the frame that is built to be indestructible. A nice riding frame for a 250-280lb rider would be great.

Want to make me a low leverage ratio FS while your at it... jk

JP

 

A few questions.

1. Tig welded or fillet brazed?
2. Are you guys going to build them in batches?
3. Ballpark price?

 

Alright, time for the update and final build of our xc 29er. The frame will come in 17, 19, 21 inch frame sizes, 14.5 on special requests. Frames will be made from tru temper heat treated tubing so we are able to make it light and strong. basic frame will have a normal BB, 71 degree HA, 17.5" chainstays, V-brake mounts. options will be an eccentric BB, Internally routed housing and sic brake mounts. ill post you guys of our final prototype build probably in a couple weeks here.

Cool man. What kind of BB drop will it have?

Good job on including v brake mounts!

 

Alright, time for the update and final build of our xc 29er. The frame will come in 17, 19, 21 inch frame sizes, 14.5 on special requests. Frames will be made from tru temper heat treated tubing so we are able to make it light and strong. basic frame will have a normal BB, 71 degree HA, 17.5" chainstays, V-brake mounts. options will be an eccentric BB, Internally routed housing and sic brake mounts. ill post you guys of our final prototype build probably in a couple weeks here.

 

You need to PM DavidCopperfield!

Santa Cruz listens to him, and so should you.

ah yes, so ive heard

 

This is what I think a lot of you "short chain stay/high BB" folks want, and what I'm saying is you compromise too much in other important handling areas to get that "feeling" with this solution. There are other ways to do the same thing without going to extremes.

perhaps i'm missing something, but as far as i know, the only other way to lighten up the front end of the bike is to raise it and move the bars back, both of which will negatively affect climbing... what are the other options? a quick look at the fs 29ers with published bb heights(unsagged) shows them to be between 13 and 14 inches for the most part, yet they still retain some semblance of standover. i really don't think a bb drop/height on par with 26" wheeled bikes is an extreme request.

Also, there are a lot of folks that want that "in the bike" glued to the trail feeling. So again, I reiterate that this company, (as yet unnamed) has a big marketplace to work with. When you start slicing away big parts of the pie with excessively short chainstays and overly high BB's you are going to find a limited audience.

you say excessively short/high, i say what is out there now is excessively long/low. :thumbsup:

You say Sinister sells through every run they weld up? Maybe FTW just happens to have a handle on what his market will bear. If you want to own a small part of the market, then that's cool. If you want to sell bigger numbers, then you steer more towards the middle geometry-wise.

i don't think his production runs are very large anyway, so there is limited availability on the frame to begin with. it's an admittedly poor example for that reason alone, but it's really the only 29" one i've got to work with... 26" world, 12.5" bb heights are incredibly common. even the surly 1x1 has 1" less bb drop than it's big wheeled sister.

I don't know what this company plans for marketing, or who they think that there customers are exactly, but I am assuming they want to sell a product that appeals to a wide segment of 29"er riders, and that's where my comments are based from.

while i really don't think the numbers i suggest would be as miniscule a market share as you suggest, i do admit that it(high bb) would be very limiting as far as fit for smaller statured riders.

 

That was not "people". That was Cloxxki.

No Cloxxki just had that axe to grind because he didn't get a frame or something or other.

 

Just to throw out a note to stimulate thought, there is currently a great variety of desires in 29er's. 26" wheeled frames slowly evolved into what was described as NORBA geometry and that pretty much became a standard. The 29er market is being explored by a greater variety of riders and the geometries are not clear cut. There is more to how a bike handles than the numbers thrown around in the forums. It is a combination of numbers that make up the how a bike feels. The answer starts to become clear here, go to a custom builder. One who has the experience to build with your needs in mind and not a builder who is trying to build to a bike to make anyone happy. In general, 29er personality is being defined by a many different opinions. Take a look at your terrain, your riding style, and pick a builder you can communicate with. Order your bike. I once heard a guy say, "Oh I wish I was wealthy enough to afford cheap tools." Think of your bike the same way.

Good counterpoint to what I was trying to communicate. Yes, I would agree with this from the standpoint of folks that want something at the extremes of what is currently available, ie: short chainstays/high bottom bracket.

In terms of "production bikes", this sort of request can not be well served, and that's where custom comes into the picture.

 

29er's

Just to throw out a note to stimulate thought, there is currently a great variety of desires in 29er's. 26" wheeled frames slowly evolved into what was described as NORBA geometry and that pretty much became a standard. The 29er market is being explored by a greater variety of riders and the geometries are not clear cut. There is more to how a bike handles than the numbers thrown around in the forums. It is a combination of numbers that make up the how a bike feels. The answer starts to become clear here, go to a custom builder. One who has the experience to build with your needs in mind and not a builder who is trying to build to a bike to make anyone happy. In general, 29er personality is being defined by a many different opinions. Take a look at your terrain, your riding style, and pick a builder you can communicate with. Order your bike. I once heard a guy say, "Oh I wish I was wealthy enough to afford cheap tools." Think of your bike the same way.

 

Man - and people bagged on me for shilling for on-one.

Reel it in MMcG!

You're shilling again. STOP POSTING.

 

If you really want to know what's important in a 29er..



You need to PM DavidCopperfield!

Santa Cruz listens to him, and so should you.

 

Man - and people bagged on me for shilling for on-one.

Reel it in MMcG!

That was not "people". That was Cloxxki.

 

I like higher BB short stay 29ers. Part of what forms my opinion is because like Sean, I own a Karate Monkey. Short stays work great, but damn the BB is low. 68mm drop is too much. 60mm might be perfect. I don't think that a centimeter in the BB height is going to affect the stability of the bike noticeably. Only thing it may effect is how much head room I have, which is already pretty limited due to my extreme height. But 60mm drop 29ers is pretty common, and since I run SS I don't need the ground clearance, I need the pedal clearance for my 180 cranks... others want 185, 190, 195... thus they'll need higher BB's. An EBB solves this in a way. You can decide to tension high or low, and if running geared, full choice of long/short stays or high/low BB.

 

Man - and people bagged on me for shilling for on-one.

Reel it in MMcG!

My second favorite 29er I've ridden was an Inbred. Does that help any brant? :thumbsup:

 

I gotta say - I really think Ted Wojcik "nailed it" with his lastest 29er design.

Man - and people bagged on me for shilling for on-one.

Reel it in MMcG!

 

I gotta say - I really think Ted Wojcik "nailed it" with his lastest 29er design.

Strong yet relatively light steel frame. Nice 12 inch-ish bottom bracket height, removovable cable guides, Sliding dropouts (you could go sub 17" or out to about 17.75 if so desired), great handling with a 100mm fork. My last blue demo frame woulda been fine even with 120mm of travel up front methinks!

I'm really surprised more guys and gals don't get in touch with Ted. His welds are amongh the best in the business, and his prices are more than fair compared to the competition.

 

originally posted by sean salach
i'm just looking for something that doesn't feel so stuck to the ground, yet still climbs well and has the added rollover ability of the 29" wheels.

This is what I think a lot of you "short chain stay/high BB" folks want, and what I'm saying is you compromise too much in other important handling areas to get that "feeling" with this solution. There are other ways to do the same thing without going to extremes.

Also, there are a lot of folks that want that "in the bike" glued to the trail feeling. So again, I reiterate that this company, (as yet unnamed) has a big marketplace to work with. When you start slicing away big parts of the pie with excessively short chainstays and overly high BB's you are going to find a limited audience.

You say Sinister sells through every run they weld up? Maybe FTW just happens to have a handle on what his market will bear. If you want to own a small part of the market, then that's cool. If you want to sell bigger numbers, then you steer more towards the middle geometry-wise.

I don't know what this company plans for marketing, or who they think that there customers are exactly, but I am assuming they want to sell a product that appeals to a wide segment of 29"er riders, and that's where my comments are based from.

 

I don't need a bottle opener, and I think I'd rather have sliders than an ebb, but I don't have first hand experience with either; I'm fine with horizontals.

 

If you want an easy market to hit then build the bike to target the clyde market. Just about any quality bike on the market today targets people in the 180 lb range. Build a big beefy frame & target the clyde market. More people are riding bikes now then ever & a good beefy frame that is targeted to clydes would be a great way to go.

funny you should say that. our 2nd prototype is a 7lb frame built for any abuse you can throw at it. we've tried to break it, cant quite do it with that much metal. but we are aware of that market, but more for the city/touring versions

 

Sounds like you have your head tracking in the right direction. With the wealth of high end tubes in aggressive buttings and diameters, you could really mix things up. Just looking over True Temper's list of main tubes and the possibilities you could play with is really incredible. I don't know if anyone remember's Merlin's CR Works ( I think that is the name of the frame) it would be really cool to do some work and try and mimic their philosophy or at least take a page out of their book on that note.

I've been looking around at bikes like the current SWorks Roubaix, Tarmac, and current Sworks Stumpjumper hardtails (or even Cervelo's S3) and really think that top tube/seatstay/seat tube configuration could be an integral part of really tuning in the ride quality of a high end steel frame and I mean to the extremes. You could still retain overall stiffness in the DT/BB/ST/CS area, but really dial in the ride quality of the bike. My only other concern would be the strength of the seat tube area and the possible extra reinforcement required. And maybe working with metal instead of carbon doesn't translate as well, but I bet it could be done with a higher end tubing.

I'm not a frame builder, or even engineer, but just throwing that out from my arm chair. I just think you could build a pretty crazy bike. I just notice a lot of companies using ideas such as flattened chainstays or seatstays that are intentionally undersized or aggresively shaped and make for some amazing riding bikes. With the wealth of tubing profiles available in steel you'd have extra weight in one place and lower in another to really balance out the build. And with steel you probably wouldn't even need the crazy shaping.

I'll throw it out there 'cause I'm not gonna have money to have a custom built ( nor do I think a lot of builders would really want a 100% customer spec'ed bike, which I can't blame them.) Hope that didn't sound too crazy.

+1 on horizontal dropouts. For sure.

 

If you want an easy market to hit then build the bike to target the clyde market. Just about any quality bike on the market today targets people in the 180 lb range. Build a big beefy frame & target the clyde market. More people are riding bikes now then ever & a good beefy frame that is targeted to clydes would be a great way to go.

 

....Short chainstays: Lots of people will say they want this and a high BB. Neither has ever been historically successful in the marketplace, nor been proven to be great for all around trail riding. Sure, some specific instances will prove out those features as being "good". But you will be selling to several folks (hopefully) with a wide ranging taste in what makes a bike work- or not, from all over the nation/world. "Short" becomes relative then, and so does "High". My suggestion would be to go no shorter than 17.25" on the chainstays and no higher than 12" on the BB.
......

sure, everyone's entitled to their opinion, especially when asked for, but you've got a little bit too much clout for me to not respond to this.(ie: your advice is likely to be given more consideration than others.)

what company has tried marketing a 29" wheeled bike with a high bb and short chainstays? as far as i know, sinister is the only one, and those frames sell out before they're built. so where are you getting your notion that neither has been successful? look at 26" wheeled bikes. the bb drop is almost never more than 1.5", and that's fairly low. 29er's could be alot more play worthy with alot less bb drop. look at the bb drop and chainstay length((bb position relative to the rear axle) on the 26" wheeled trail bikes, like the chameleon. >17.25" chainstays and a >2.5" bb drop(<12" height) makes a bike handle like a dirt road bike. it's also what just about every other 29er on the market is running. so you're telling them to be unique and offer something different, then telling them to do exactly what everyone else is doing... kinda sorta.

i'm just looking for something that doesn't feel so stuck to the ground, yet still climbs well and has the added rollover ability of the 29" wheels.

the only real downside to a 'high' bb: less standover clearance. so one would have to run a longer seat post or have a dropped top tube with a reinforcing tube running up to an extended seat tube.

again, ted, not trying to start an arguement or discount your ideals(for you).:thumbsup:

 

Highly populated market place. I would think that being different in some area would help marketability. If you aren't going to make it cheap, it has to be different. Otherwise, why bother?

So, from that standpoint I see a committed frame to either gears or single speed- no "do it all" type as we have myriads of choices in this type of steel frame. I realize it is hard from a marketing planning standpoint, since the bean counter, (who ever that is) isn't going to like you alienating a segment of the market place, but again, if it isn't different, why bother?

Internally route cables, or make cable stops that are removeable, ala Ted Wojik, so you could run full housings to gear up a single speed specific frame with an internally geared hub.

EBB's are good if you use the right one. I like the split shell EBB on my Blackbuck real well. Another cool, (and lightweight) option would be to use Niner's EBB.

Mount the rear disc caliper on the chain stay. Provide rack braze ons.

Clearance for the biggest tires on Gordo rims with mud clearance.

Here's some thoughts on some of the requested features I keep seeing.

Short chainstays: Lots of people will say they want this and a high BB. Neither has ever been historically successful in the marketplace, nor been proven to be great for all around trail riding. Sure, some specific instances will prove out those features as being "good". But you will be selling to several folks (hopefully) with a wide ranging taste in what makes a bike work- or not, from all over the nation/world. "Short" becomes relative then, and so does "High". My suggestion would be to go no shorter than 17.25" on the chainstays and no higher than 12" on the BB.

Finally, the short head tubes are not all that necessary as you get away from a medium sized frame. Large, XL, and (hopefully) an XXL frame should be able to be set up without a ton of spacers so that a 7-10 degree stem gets you at a point where the saddle to bar drop is 3 inches or so with a flat bar. I've seen some that require a stack of spacers well over an inch to two inches to accomplish this and that is nutty.

That's my two cents............