[LePigPen]

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[Nat]

I disagree. Playful geo is no different than racy high stability geo. What you're saying is what I first said. We can play with a racy geo 29'er just as we can ride fast in the chunk with a playful geo 26'er. No one would say a 26'er with playful compact wheelbase, reach, short stays... is a great for speed in the chunk just as no one should say a long wheelbase, reach, chain stays 29'er is a good playful set up. A good rider will do whatever with whatever but quantifying playful is no different than quantifying racy.

It sounds to me like you agree with me rather than disagree.

 

[Nat]

Agree and disagree, yes you can ride in a more playful way, tune suspension to have a little more pop etc but if the bike has the wheelbase of a bus there is nothing I can do to it to make it more nimble/lively on tighter trails, switchbacks, etc. everything is a compromise imo, that 1300mm wheelbase 62.5 HA bike will be super stable and amazing on step stuff but wouldn't be able to turn like a bike with a 1225mm wheelbase and 65HA, that's why I'm looking for something that can blur the lines between Enduro and all mountain.

I still maintain that it comes down to how you choose to ride it. These guys look pretty playful to me:

 

[LePigPen]

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[Nat]

The term "playful" is really subjective. "Is that bike playful?" I don't know. Are you playful? I am calling the Spire playful because that's how I ride mine.

 

[Nat]

Would anyone here not agree that Jeff K-W rides playfully?

 

[slimat99]

The term "playful" is really subjective. "Is that bike playful?" I don't know. Are you playful? I am calling the Spire playful because that's how I ride mine.

Playful when talking about a bike's geo, and wheel size isn't subjective at all. Playful can exist on a geo chart. It doesn't get more objective than numbers on paper. You're hung up on riding style instead of what is being ridden.

 

[LePigPen]

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[nya]

Makes my point exactly. We are not talkin about the same things lol

And therefore it has to be explained in 'objective' numbers.

Those guys are literally just riding a trail and popping a bit and angling off. (And GREAT riders.)

We can't take a Santa Cruz e-bike and say it's playful because Danny Macaskill is better than you on it.

We can't call an alloy enduro bike an XC bike because Nino Schurter would smoke all of us even if we were on carbon XC bikes. That doesn't get us anywhere.

We know what an XC bike is. The range it exists within. We know what a DH is. We have a vague idea of what enduro is, thanks to legends like Chaz riding a base Stumpy now.

While a play bike could be a wider range of things for sure, I'd leave it to a pro to tell us what it is.

Cam Zink made a bike with 420mm chainstays because he basically couldn't convince a brand to make one.

I'd love to know what the numbers are on the Trek "Sesh" rigs that Brandon and Emil ride. But it's not production so we may never know? Not sure.

A Spire can NOT be described as playful lol. If a Spire is then ALL bikes are playful. So there are NO bikes that are not playful. Don't know how that helps us lol

But describing it by Zink, Emil or Brandon, is so far from anyone riding bikes and even anywhere near what and how people ride. Yes, they are slopestyle / freeride fellas, that's why they need those bikes, because the things they do are so extreme they need a special bikes for it. Does that mean a Joe Bloke on a Brandon's bike will call it a playful bike? I doubt that very much.
A DHer will call most enduro bikes playful probably, XC people might call a trail bike playful, Semenuk might call Sesh playful. I still maintain that playful isn't a category, it is a description relative to skill level and riding style.

 

[Nat]

Playful when talking about a bike's geo, and wheel size isn't subjective at all. Playful can exist on a geo chart. It doesn't get more objective than numbers on paper. You're hung up on riding style instead of what is being ridden.

Playful is 100% riding style. A bike doesn’t ride itself.

 

[slimat99]

Correct, we are intentionally saying we want bikes that are bad for high speed tech because we will not be riding it in high speed tech.

It should NOT be your daily driver unless you literally never intend to ride trails.

Playful bikes are inherently unbalanced. Short rear center and high stack reach ratio is intentionally unbalanced. THe Zink Vacay is intentionally unbalanced.

But I think this thread kinda... Got hijacked at some point. I don't want to ruin OP's intentions.

Again, the actual play bike basically doesn't exist in the industry anymore. The Trek bike Semenuk and Emil ride is not production. Fully custom, one-off. Zink's Vacay is the only one arguably.

So yeah. Sorry if we kinda bogarded OP's thread. We can kinda end this with play bikes don't exist to be bought anymore. They have to be custom/frame-up. A la Dan Paley's bike a la Tom Isted's bike a la Semenuk and Emil's bike, etc.

In terms of what OP is describing, it sounds like you just want shorter wheelbase, steeper HTA bikes at most. That's as much as you can do in the modern industry. They're low key all making the same bike if we're being honest. (But that's a whole other conversation.)

Yep. What's really applicable to OP here is to considering sizing down on something that isn't too racy to begin with. I would look to 140 rear travel options too considering when you hit 150 and up most bikes are tuned to be more ground hugging. 140 out back with 160 up front can still charge the chop and huck and you'll have more pop from the "sporty" tune sub 150mm bikes tend to have.

I'm not going to recommend anything because I'm out of the loop. I ride full 27 which makes me a dinosaur. I'm basically riding a land line.

 

[LePigPen]

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[nya]

Exactly, if they are pros and need that bike design. What hope do I have to ride in a playful way if I don't have the right bike?

I think you're thinking about this backwards.

Do XC racers race heavier, and slacker bikes just because they are good?

Do DH racers ride steeper short wheelbase bikes because they are good?

I'm just pointing out what play bikes are, objectively, by the numbers (as well as the fact that they don't really exist anymore).

https://99spokes.com/compare?bikes=marin-rift-zone-27.5-xr-2024%3B*z.md-27%25252e5-27%25252e5%2Ctransition-spire-alloy-nx-2024%3B*z.md-low-29-29

TWENTY millimeters longer chainstay. THREE degrees slacker. SEVENTY millimeters longer wheelbase in the same frame size...

Which bike would you buy if you wanted to do playful riding?

We are just talking about different kinds of 'play'.

Me and Slim are talking about 360s and easy manuals and jibbing in skateparks and side hits and berm tracks.

You and Nat are talking about... A bike being able to maneuver on a trail.

Again, if a Transition Spire is playful. ALL bikes are playful.

If all bikes are playful. Playful has NO meaning as a word or category.

And the original poster was asking about a bit more playful bike on a blue track with his wife/partner that can still do park. So probably not a Zink's kind of playful? But Trail kind of playful? That's why Nat and I are describing a skill/style based feeling not a category. Or do playful bike exist only for people who do 360 and skateparks?

 

[LePigPen]

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[Blkdoutindustries]

I ride at Sunrise a few times a year and live in Scottsdale so I thought I’d be able to recommend something with ease but the two bikes I absolutely love for your application are a Firebird (superboost) and Atherton A.170 (MX only). I’ve ridden my Firebird a ton at Sunrise and it is great there. I didn’t get the A.170 in time to take it there this year but it is astonishing how much fun it is to ride this bike. Even at 40lbs, pedaling up Alpe at Hawes is a pleasure and it is great heading down as well. Neither meet your needs though due to wheel set specs.

I also have a Trek Slash+ 9.9. I don’t love it the same way I do the other two I mentioned but it makes me think the Trek Slash (non plus) may work nicely for you. If I had to have an e-MTB for park and Hawes/South Mountain it would be the Slash+ and the regular Slash is basically the same from my understanding.

Which year Firebird do you have? I'm not opposed to getting another wheel built if needed. Looking at geometry I think the 20-21 bike might fit the bill

 

[Az2Au]

I ride at Sunrise a few times a year and live in Scottsdale so I thought I’d be able to recommend something with ease but the two bikes I absolutely love for your application are a Firebird (superboost) and Atherton A.170 (MX only). I’ve ridden my Firebird a ton at Sunrise and it is great there. I didn’t get the A.170 in time to take it there this year but it is astonishing how much fun it is to ride this bike. Even at 40lbs, pedaling up Alpe at Hawes is a pleasure and it is great heading down as well. Neither meet your needs though due to wheel set specs.

I also have a Trek Slash+ 9.9. I don’t love it the same way I do the other two I mentioned but it makes me think the Trek Slash (non plus) may work nicely for you. If I had to have an e-MTB for park and Hawes/South Mountain it would be the Slash+ and the regular Slash is basically the same from my understanding.

Which year Firebird do you have? I'm not opposed to getting another wheel built if needed. Looking at geometry I think the 20-21 bike might fit the bill

2022. I have Push ElevenSix and NineOne suspension on it. Size M. I’m a bit heavier than you at 180lbs but glad to let you try it out if you’re in the area. Send me message and we can work it out. TBC: I have no interest in selling it so don’t worry about that. Just glad to let you ride it and see if you like it.

 

[Blkdoutindustries]

It's a good argument so no worries but I'm going to clarify again what I'm looking for, I enjoy park/dh type riding primarily, I have a short travel bike for days I'm going to pedal a lot so this bike would be used 90-95% of the time with a lift or shuttle. My Enduro did that well but as I get older and I find myself riding more with my GF and her parents when we go to the cabin in Tamarack I'm looking for something that while I can still ride what I like if I'm alone or decide to do a couple runs by myself then when I'm back riding with them it doesn't feel like I'm riding a bus, most of the blue/Green trails there have a lot of switchbacks so while the Enduro could go down them it was like trying to maneuver and oil tanker down a river sometimes so I'm thinking I need to try some of the older geo long travel bikes with HA in the 64-65, reach in the 450s and CS around 435.

 

[Blkdoutindustries]

2022. I have Push ElevenSix and NineOne suspension on it. Size M. I’m a bit heavier than you at 180lbs but glad to let you try it out if you’re in the area. Send me message and we can work it out. TBC: I have no interest in selling it so don’t worry about that. Just glad to let you ride it and see if you like it.

Thanks for the offer, I'll let you know for sure, I'm in NW Peoria. That one can be run as a mullet correct? I have a SB onyx/Berd 27.5 left over from Arrival

 

[Az2Au]

2022. I have Push ElevenSix and NineOne suspension on it. Size M. I’m a bit heavier than you at 180lbs but glad to let you try it out if you’re in the area. Send me message and we can work it out. TBC: I have no interest in selling it so don’t worry about that. Just glad to let you ride it and see if you like it.

Thanks for the offer, I'll let you know for sure, I'm in NW Peoria. That one can be run as a mullet correct? I have a SB onyx/Berd 27.5 left over from Arrival

It can according to several posts I’ve seen on FB but I’ve never attempted it. Love that bike overall. No complaints at all. The A.170 is a little better for climbing but I would be very happy with either.

 

[LePigPen]

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