Coming May 31st, according to Pivot website. Any ideas what it is?
My old Titus Switchblade was one of my favorite bikes ever.
My old Titus Switchblade was one of my favorite bikes ever.
Pivot Switchblade
BmanInTheD
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I'm 60 years old my friend!
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Threads that go down this path partially crack me up and partially drive me mad.
Look, I know everyone wants the bike that'll turn them into Nino Schurter on the climbs and Aaron Gwin on the descents (although, to be fair, I'd like a bike that turns me into Nino Schurter up, down, and in the gym. LOL). Unfortunately, that bike doesn't exist. Likewise, a surgically precise and turbocharged climber that's also incredibly planted descending at high-speeds and untouchable in the gnar is a pipe dream. If you think it's not, and that you've ridden that unicorn, you probably don't have a realistic idea what best-in-class climbing and descending really looks and feels like.
As for my own experience on the SB (and my fiancee's), it gets me up the hill well beyond expectations, but it's the way down that's the real treat.
Look, I know everyone wants the bike that'll turn them into Nino Schurter on the climbs and Aaron Gwin on the descents (although, to be fair, I'd like a bike that turns me into Nino Schurter up, down, and in the gym. LOL). Unfortunately, that bike doesn't exist. Likewise, a surgically precise and turbocharged climber that's also incredibly planted descending at high-speeds and untouchable in the gnar is a pipe dream. If you think it's not, and that you've ridden that unicorn, you probably don't have a realistic idea what best-in-class climbing and descending really looks and feels like.
As for my own experience on the SB (and my fiancee's), it gets me up the hill well beyond expectations, but it's the way down that's the real treat.
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It doesn't lack luster. Unless it's grossly the wrong size and/or the setup is wrong.
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If you are talking about my comment I think I've been pretty clear that I suspect that's due to the steep STA. I've also been pretty clear that it's a personal preference/body geo thing and not some problem with the bike. Some people love steep STAs and climb like Gods on bikes with steep STAs. So far that hasn't proven to be the case for me.
The bike is stiff and the DW-Link is efficient. I have no doubt some people find it climbs great for them.
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You just made too much sense for this thread.
It boggles my mind that people can't understand somebody else may have a different opinion about something then they do without getting a massive case of butt hurt.
Not everyone is going to come to the same conclusion about a bike especially when you factor in the variety of trails we all ride and how we ride them. :nono:
I love my Mach 6, but when Blatant posts he didn't like the Mach 6 due to the slack STA and loves his SB I don't lose my mind or take it personally. I think it's great that he's found a bike he digs and I am stoked for him. :thumbsup:
FWIW - great Trans BC photos....makes me proud to live here. And for the record I'm stoked you dig your SB!
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Hey Vik,
Regarding the steep vs slack STA.
In my opinion, if one rides slack ST bikes and then jumpes on a steep, he might not feel at home right away.
There are different muscles being activated differently and it takes more than a ride to adjust.
I rode slack ST bikes before and didn't find it bad. I slowly progressed from 72° to 74-75° and really can't stand the slack ST now.
I am just saying, you might actually like the steep after you ride it more...
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You make a good point and one of my goals with the SB demo was to see if it would be possible to fit comfortably on a SB with either a straight or setback dropper. As long as I am able to run a slacker STA [via setback post] without any fit compromises I'm happy to try riding a steeper STA bike for a few months and see what happens.
If I was loving everything about the SB, but the STA I wouldn't mind some experimentation.
OTOH if I am not loving a bike I'm going to try some other bikes in the same class to see how I feel about them. Maybe I find something else that just clicks with me naturally...maybe I get a different perspective and come back to the SB for another try.
If I needed a new bike or I'd be sitting on the couch it would be a different story. I'm looking at buying a totally unnecessary bling third bike. I'm not going to spend the $$ unless I'm really jazzed.
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I think coming away unimpressed from a demo ride means it was mostly a waste of time, because you can't confidently conclude WHY the bike rode badly (unless it's a size issue, or other deal breaker). I think having a great demo ride is of value because it can give you confidence that the bike is within a certain margin or acceptability. IOW, its unlikely you'll regret buying your new bike if it really impressed you during the demo.
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Good point I guess I am just too picky about my setups. Never had a good demo ride where I was comfortable on the bike.
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Some great commentary here, and interesting view points from multiple perspectives. vikb, I'm curious what other 29ers you've ridden on similar terrain, and how they compared, particularly in regard to the "lackluster climbing". I was especially surprised to hear that you felt the bike didn't have the traction you normally have when climbing from s seated position. I believe you said it was better when standing. You noted that you thought it was down to the steeper STA. I think there might be something else at play here. While the STA is steeper, effectively moving your center of mass (CM) forward, the rear end is a touch shorter (2.5mm), with a longer front center than the M6. This puts the rider back in the middle of the bike on the SB. If the geometry of the SB were closer to the M6, but with the steeper STA, the rider's weight would most certainly be moved forward while seated.
The position of the CM while climbing in a standing position will relate directly to the pitch or a leg of the slope. Most people struggle with maintaining traction from a standing position vs seated because riders typically move their CM further forward when standing, also applying less consistent torque, but more of it at peaks in the pedal stroke.
My question about your experience with other 29ers is more about my personal observations after riding dozens of different bikes over the past few years. Different wheel sizes, along with variables in components (wheelset, tired, tire pressure, etc.), can sometimes have a more noticeable effect on "feel" or "sensation" then on performance. I know I'm not the only one who's felt slower on some bikes or setups only to have the clock tell a different story. Many of the 29ers I've ridden have felt slower on sustained climbs. At times they even feel slower descending, like on flowy or mellow sections of trail. More often than not, the slower feeling I observe when testing a 29er back to back with a smaller wheeled bike is completely blown out of the water by actual, measurable data. For me, and many others I've spoken with as someone that works in the industry, 29ers can feel slower when grinding up a climb. This might be down to the way bigger wheels translate power to forward movement, not being as instantaneous or cat like in how they jump forward when we pour on the power. On the downs, 29ers tend not to feel like they are going as fast, probably due to being pretty planted, maintaining more contact area, and smoothing out smaller trail chatter. Talk to anyone who's spent some reasonable time on a 29er and you'll most likely hear a story or two about coming into a turn too hot. This isn't because modern 29ers don't turn well. They carry speed very well, and they tend to disguise how fast we are actually going.
Having spent a decent amount of time on the M6 as well as the 429T, 429SL, Mach4, 2016 Stumpjumper (650 and 29er), Salsa Horsethief, multiple Santa Cruz VPP bikes, Yeti 4.5 and 5.5, I feel like I have a pretty good sense of how the SB performed for me compared to several other direct and peripheral competitors.
I thought it climbed quite well for a bike in its category. Slightly less snappy in 650+ mode. More efficient than the Stumpy, particularly without a shock platform switched on. More planted and centered than the other Pivots. Not as sprightly as the shorter travel bikes though (4, 429SL, 429T). The 5.5 pedals as well, maybe better, but is more work to get around slow, tight corners, especially climbing. The 4.5 is a rocket going up. None of the VPP bikes feel as efficient or smooth when pedaling, particularly through undulating or rougher terrain.
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The position of the CM while climbing in a standing position will relate directly to the pitch or a leg of the slope. Most people struggle with maintaining traction from a standing position vs seated because riders typically move their CM further forward when standing, also applying less consistent torque, but more of it at peaks in the pedal stroke.
My question about your experience with other 29ers is more about my personal observations after riding dozens of different bikes over the past few years. Different wheel sizes, along with variables in components (wheelset, tired, tire pressure, etc.), can sometimes have a more noticeable effect on "feel" or "sensation" then on performance. I know I'm not the only one who's felt slower on some bikes or setups only to have the clock tell a different story. Many of the 29ers I've ridden have felt slower on sustained climbs. At times they even feel slower descending, like on flowy or mellow sections of trail. More often than not, the slower feeling I observe when testing a 29er back to back with a smaller wheeled bike is completely blown out of the water by actual, measurable data. For me, and many others I've spoken with as someone that works in the industry, 29ers can feel slower when grinding up a climb. This might be down to the way bigger wheels translate power to forward movement, not being as instantaneous or cat like in how they jump forward when we pour on the power. On the downs, 29ers tend not to feel like they are going as fast, probably due to being pretty planted, maintaining more contact area, and smoothing out smaller trail chatter. Talk to anyone who's spent some reasonable time on a 29er and you'll most likely hear a story or two about coming into a turn too hot. This isn't because modern 29ers don't turn well. They carry speed very well, and they tend to disguise how fast we are actually going.
Having spent a decent amount of time on the M6 as well as the 429T, 429SL, Mach4, 2016 Stumpjumper (650 and 29er), Salsa Horsethief, multiple Santa Cruz VPP bikes, Yeti 4.5 and 5.5, I feel like I have a pretty good sense of how the SB performed for me compared to several other direct and peripheral competitors.
I thought it climbed quite well for a bike in its category. Slightly less snappy in 650+ mode. More efficient than the Stumpy, particularly without a shock platform switched on. More planted and centered than the other Pivots. Not as sprightly as the shorter travel bikes though (4, 429SL, 429T). The 5.5 pedals as well, maybe better, but is more work to get around slow, tight corners, especially climbing. The 4.5 is a rocket going up. None of the VPP bikes feel as efficient or smooth when pedaling, particularly through undulating or rougher terrain.
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Didn't care for the 429 Trail on my first demo ride and kinda freaked because I'd already ordered one. The second time I had a chance to demo it I changed bar, stem, and wheels/tires - fell in love.
I'm running my 29" SB w/o the 17mm cup - not sure I'd like it as much with a taller and slacker front-end.
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RE STA: how does this matter if you set the fore aft position of the seat so you are bio mechanically correct? For example if steep STA I probably would set my seat a bit back from the mid point. If slack STA I probably would set my seat forward of the mid point. Effective STA should be close. Confused.
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This would be my first FS trail/AM 29er I've ever ridden. I own a 29+ Surly Krampus I bikepack on, but don't use for trail riding. Riding with camping gear is a totally different ballgame so no real comparison. This is why I am keen to try a few more 29er FS bikes to see what's just part of the 29er feel and what's bike specific.
My two normal bikes for this kind of riding are my Mach 6 and a 26er SC Nomad.
The best explanation I can give you of the difference in seated climbing between my M6 and the SB is that on the M6 my weight is right over the rear wheel [see photo above for saddle at ride height]. That loads up the rear tire and it feels like it's digging in on climbs. It literally never breaks loose. If I want to move my CM forward on the M6 it's easy to scooch forward on the saddle while staying seated. I might do this for 5 or 10 mins on a 3hr ride.
On the SB it felt like my weight was further forward than on the M6 and the rear tire would more easily start to spin. Since I was at the back of the saddle already it wasn't possible to move my CM backwards without standing up.
I agree that having some GPS data would be useful. If I can collect some back to back runs on the same trails in the future I will.
One bit of external data I have is that I was unable to out climb my friends on the SB on a climb I would normally dust them. They had no issues staying with me. As soon as I got back on my Mach 6 I dropped them on that climb without killing myself. That's not as good as GPS data for sure, but the difference wasn't close.
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The STA only matters in that it sets the range you can move the saddle around. You can't really use the all the adjustment range of most saddles. I'm 190lbs + gear so if I slam a saddle all the way forward or back it's going to break sooner rather than later.
You can use a setback seatpost though to move the saddle an inch back without having to go to an extreme on the saddle rails.
The saddle position also affects the resulting seated effective TT. So if you are maxed out on a large frame in terms of distance from saddle to head tube and throw a setback post on you now have a bike that's too big for you.
That's why I noted above I'd be happy to try riding a bike I really loved with a steeper STA as long as I could still fit a setback seatpost on it and adjust the stem to fit if I didn't adapt and needed the slacker pedalling position.
So to your question if you can get the saddle, bars and BB where you want them the physical STA of the bike doesn't matter.
Can you give an example of the types of pitches/surfaces this happened on? How steep, loose, loose over hard, smooth, rocky, etc.? It seems counter to physics at play. Generally speaking if one doesn't change riding position from level riding surface (i.e. move forward or move chest toward the bars), too much weight is placed over the rear wheel causing a light front. It's generally very difficult to move so far forward while seated to cause the rear to become unweighted. Once standing out of the saddle where our weight and CM changes much more significantly as not only our chest/torso is moving forward, but so are our hips. I can't see how you were able to weight the rear more effectively from out of the saddle unless you moved your torso back away from the bars and or your hips moved back significantly, behind the back edge of the saddle.![Image]()
This would be my first FS trail/AM 29er I've ever ridden. I own a 29+ Surly Krampus I bikepack on, but don't use for trail riding. Riding with camping gear is a totally different ballgame so no real comparison. This is why I am keen to try a few more 29er FS bikes to see what's just part of the 29er feel and what's bike specific.
My two normal bikes for this kind of riding are my Mach 6 and a 26er SC Nomad.
The best explanation I can give you of the difference in seated climbing between my M6 and the SB is that on the M6 my weight is right over the rear wheel [see photo above for saddle at ride height]. That loads up the rear tire and it feels like it's digging in on climbs. If I want to move my CM forward on the M6 it's easy to scooch forward on the saddle while staying seated.
On the SB it felt like my weight was further forward than on the M6 and the rear tire would more easily start to spin. Since I was at the back of the saddle already it wasn't possible to move my CM backwards without standing up.
Is it at all possible that the shock wasn't dialed in as close as you thought? A set up that is too firm could cause a traction situation like you've described, and getting out of the saddle actually brought in some suspension (your legs) to manage pressure to the contact patch. These Fox DPS shocks are more finicky to set up, and the way they equalize pressure to the negative spring is different than previous Float shocks. If they aren't pressurized properly, and chambers balanced correctly during setup, they act almost like there is no rebound damping at all in the open mode. This is another possibility that could have affected your demo ride and the suspension performance in particular.
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It happened on steep dirt climb. Loose dirt over hardpacked dirt....not SoCal hardpack, but hard for BC.
My Mach 6 front end often feels really light on climbs. We have a lot of techy climbs here and I actually quite like that feeling as the front wheel gets over tech easily and can be easily repositioned on a new line. If I want to weight the front end it's not hard as my bike is so short. I can move my weight around really easily.
Standing I can pretty easily shift my weight backwards or forwards to keep traction in the right zone and the front end adequately weighted.
I noted in my first post about the demo that I thought there was something wrong with the Fox suspension at both ends...on all three demo bikes. It was definitely not working the way I would expect. So for sure some of the traction issues could be related to that.
The tech set the sag at 30% and I left the compression lever in wide open. We even dropped pressure between demo #1 and demo #2. I have no other experience with that generation of Fox product, but I doubt folks would accept what I was feeling.
I hope to get back up to Cumberland and grab a SB for another demo from Trail Bikes while they service my Mach 6's suspension. That will be a way more relaxed demo session where I can spend more time tweaking things to see how the changes affect my ride.
I'll run my GPS and then go back and ride the same loop with my Mach 6.
Thanks, Noah & techfersure! Tried on a 34T round ring last night and it fits.... which means a 32T Oval will be OK, just like what the both of you are running. An Absolute Black 32T ring has been ordered and can't wait for it to get here!
Your description of the M6 is pretty bang on in my opinion. It is fairly short, especially in reach, so out of the saddle, small fore/aft movements have a significant effect. For me, it doesn't allow me enough room to move, particularly when riding aggressive downhill trails where the bike can get caught up, slowing down underneath me, and not allowing me room to move to absorb those impacts without getting too far out of the sweet spot.
The SB is a different animal. It will take some adjustment in technique and how you interact with the bike. That's neither meant to be good or bad, just a statement of fact. If you've spent a good deal of time on the M6, not riding much on bikes with different geo while doing similar riding, a bike that has noticeably different geometry will feel very foreign. I get to ride a lot of different bikes, and my two primary rigs have quite different geo in some respects (429T and Evil Wreckoning). Both are fairly slack and aggressive 29ers. The Evil is noticeably longer, in reach, wheelbase, and front center. I have no trouble bouncing back and forth between them, but if I could change one, it would be to add more reach to the 429T. I'm good with TT length, CS length, WB, but the reach is much too short for a bike that's meant to be a short travel trail slayer, in my opinion. I'd be ok with a slightly steeper ST as well. Adding reach without increasing TT significantly would mean a steeper STA and a little added WB if everything else stayed the same. I hope this is something we'll see on more future Pivot models. The SB was everything I was hoping they would start to incorporate in their geo. I know that not all will agree.
With regard to the Fox DPS shock, we've been told that if you're making significant pressure changes, you should make them in no more than 50psi increments without cycling the shock several times between each jump in pressure. This allows the negative spring to equalize properly. Also make sure to set sag with the shock in the wide open setting with rebound set to full fast to get sag set properly.
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