Sram XO, DH 157mm new version that's what I built my 27.5 wheel. Quote from Pivot when I inquired about use " Excellent choice for rear hub " flange width exactly same as I9 157mm super boost.

 

Give up on center lock.

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I had NOX composites build a 29er wheel set for Switchblade. I choose the I9 hubs, but they have at least 2 other suppliers for 157 boost hubs. Or you can go with 157 DH hubs. NOX is a great company, excellent quality builds and a great warranty.

 

This^^^ NOX builds GREAT wheels. And lighter than the ones Pivot sells.

 

Geez, I didn’t expect a response from C. Cocalis, but just a few things -

I really like my Switchblade and understand the benefits of super boost.

Right now I would buy the center lock super boost hubs DT makes, or I-9 makes. I would be happy to buy those but they won’t sell them. Stans - there are reports of issues with the hubs. Onynx maybe but not sure about the weight. So instead right now I think I’m just going to wait and keep riding the plus wheels. I actually like them a lot!

I don’t really want to buy a full wheel set with tires, etc. from Pivot. It’s maybe a nice option for some. The biggest issue is I want to choose the rim. I would like 30 mm, not 25mm like the factory wheels. I would like carbon, not aluminum. I didn’t necessarily say cheap chinese carbon. Nox, Derby, there are other sources besides the cheapest options.

I don’t really plan to switch back and forth between the wheels on a daily basis. I might switch to the 29 wheels and never go back to 27+. I might switch every few months. I don’t know. But certainly one can move a cassette and rotors between wheels every few months and adjust the calipers and rear derailleur.

So anyways, this is hardly a big deal in the large scope of life but it would be great if Pivot and/or DT could simply find a way to sell the hubs aftermarket that DT is already making. That would be super and much appreciated.

 

I hear you with the wheels, I kinda like to do my own build on those as well (it's partly a nice custom touch but I also lean more towards the DH style rims since I beat mine up so bad). I'll pass on your response, we use feedback from customers & dealers to help decide which options we want to offer (and what to ask our vendors for).
Ride on!

Geez, I didn't expect a response from C. Cocalis, but just a few things -

I really like my Switchblade and understand the benefits of super boost.

Right now I would buy the center lock super boost hubs DT makes, or I-9 makes. I would be happy to buy those but they won't sell them. Stans - there are reports of issues with the hubs. Onynx maybe but not sure about the weight. So instead right now I think I'm just going to wait and keep riding the plus wheels. I actually like them a lot!

I don't really want to buy a full wheel set with tires, etc. from Pivot. It's maybe a nice option for some. The biggest issue is I want to choose the rim. I would like 30 mm, not 25mm like the factory wheels. I would like carbon, not aluminum. I didn't necessarily say cheap chinese carbon. Nox, Derby, there are other sources besides the cheapest options.

I don't really plan to switch back and forth between the wheels on a daily basis. I might switch to the 29 wheels and never go back to 27+. I might switch every few months. I don't know. But certainly one can move a cassette and rotors between wheels every few months and adjust the calipers and rear derailleur.

So anyways, this is hardly a big deal in the large scope of life but it would be great if Pivot and/or DT could simply find a way to sell the hubs aftermarket that DT is already making. That would be super and much appreciated.

 

Well at least Chris C's statement above finally acknowledges that DT is NOT currently selling this hub. I can point to multiple interviews/articles in the past year where Chris explicitly states that the "superboost" hubs are available from DT, which was simply not true. A year after product intro, its still not true.

As for his explanation for selling full wheelsets, his points don't resonate with me. For one, he totally ignores the bed-in of pads and rotors. That issue alone would lead me to swapping centerlock rotors on two wheelsets, to ensure that the pad/rotor combination remains identical. If the rotor position is off -- and that is EXTREMELY unlikely in my experience when using identical models of DT hubs -- the fix is a trivial re-adjustment of the caliper position. If the cassette is off by 0.5mm, again its a trivial fix: turn your barrel adjuster one notch.
As for Chris' claim that Pivot are pricing the second wheelset "very aggressively" that seems like hyperbole. $1599 for the DT wheels is substantially higher than the sum of the full msrp of every component in the wheels (hubset, rims, tires, spokes, rotors, cassette). If one shops aggressively, you can do it a fraction of that price. I built a set of DT 350 Boost centerlock wheels w/ XM481 rims and butted spokes w/ ice tech rotors and Maxxis rubber for <$700. And I got to pick my own tires and rims.

I don't see anyone on the forum changing wheels daily. More typical is a change for seasons, or a change for a trip to a location w/ specific trail conditions, etc. Lets say 10 changes per year for a random average. The centerlock and cassette lockring threads are more than up to that task.

EDIT: another observation: from Chris: "We are not a components distributor but dealers will have access to the hubs.
And yet Pivot distributes and sells both stems and handlebars, which seem to me to be components.

Just be honest with us Chris. Pivot sells only full wheelsets because your profit margins are better. Its a legit position to take, its a rationale I can understand. But ignoring that obvious benefit/strategy, and acting like no one could possibly build their own wheelset around a centerlock DT 350 157mm hub and have it work well, is not a rationale I'm buying.

 

Well at least Chris C's statement above finally acknowledges that DT is NOT currently selling this hub. I can point to multiple interviews/articles in the past year where Chris explicitly states that the "superboost" hubs are available from DT, which was simply not true. A year after product intro, its still not true.

As for his explanation for selling full wheelsets, his points don't resonate with me. For one, he totally ignores the bed-in of pads and rotors. That issue alone would lead me to swapping centerlock rotors on two wheelsets, to ensure that the pad/rotor combination remains identical. If the rotor position is off -- and that is EXTREMELY unlikely in my experience when using identical models of DT hubs -- the fix is a trivial re-adjustment of the caliper position. If the cassette is off by 0.5mm, again its a trivial fix: turn your barrel adjuster one notch.
As for Chris' claim that Pivot are pricing the second wheelset "very aggressively" that seems like hyperbole. $1599 for the DT wheels is substantially higher than the sum of the full msrp of every component in the wheels (hubset, rims, tires, spokes, rotors, cassette). If one shops aggressively, you can do it a fraction of that price. I built a set of DT 350 Boost centerlock wheels w/ XM481 rims and butted spokes w/ ice tech rotors and Maxxis rubber for <$700. And I got to pick my own tires and rims.

I don't see anyone on the forum changing wheels daily. More typical is a change for seasons, or a change for a trip to a location w/ specific trail conditions, etc. Lets say 10 changes per year for a random average. The centerlock and cassette lockring threads are more than up to that task.

EDIT: another observation: from Chris: "We are not a components distributor but dealers will have access to the hubs.
And yet Pivot distributes and sells both stems and handlebars, which seem to me to be components.

Just be honest with us Chris. Pivot sells only full wheelsets because your profit margins are better. Its a legit position to take, its a rationale I can understand. But ignoring that obvious benefit/strategy, and acting like no one could possibly build their own wheelset around a centerlock DT 350 157mm hub and have it work well, is not a rationale I'm buying.

Well said. I own a 429T but have considered trading to a Switchblade on several occasions. The only thing that keeps me from blowing more money is that proprietary hub size. I got burned with the Fisher 1-1/4" headset "standard" and vowed never to be put in that position again.

 

Not sure about your last ? but the hub spacing 157mm has been around a long time and many hub mfg companies have it readily available. It's been the standard DH hub for years.

 

Hub spacing, yes. Flange spacing, no.

And, I suppose I should clarify that I'm referencing xc/trail/enduro bikes with standard bb spacing that people actually pedal. Not DH/FR bikes. The Switchblade is the only bike I'm aware of that uses this design, including all other Pivot bikes and bikes from other companies.

The point is, this bike is a huge pain in the rear for anyone with parts who wants a frame, because Pivot doesn't sell it. Plus, just about everyone who wants to build this bike up from a frame will also have to do some messing around to get a compatible rear wheel.

Further, for anyone who owns the bike, and wants to build their own backup/second/upgraded wheelset, Pivot has also made that substantially more difficult with how they're handling the distribution.

In short, the only reason you can't buy a frame is Super Boost Plus. The only reason a second wheelset is a PITA is Super Boost Plus. It's my thought that the juice isn't worth the squeeze. Pivot disagrees, at least for now.

 

And it's not the same hub.

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Maybe not "exactly" the same but any 157mm hub will work and they're made by just about everyone.

 

I have an offer for my X01 equipped 429T and if I add something like 800€ I could get lightly used SB with XT/XTR build, Factory suspension and DT Swiss alu wheels.

Should I?

I find that 429T fits me very well, can't fault the bike really. It's nicely balanced for the trails I ride and very versatile while being fun everywhere.

I fear that SB might be too much of a bike, heavier and less fun to ride due to more travel and beefed up suspension.

Can SB replace 429T for allround riding and offer more on top when things get hairy?

 

I own a Switchblade but never have ridden a 429T. Wanted to, but the demo i attended was rained out before i could try it.

But i worried a lot about whether the Switchblade was "too much" bike. I really don't have any concerns about that after owning it for 7 months. I've ridden a lot of less challenging terrain on it and its great. It doesn't feel cumbersome or slow on narrow twisty slower stuff. I don't seem to be going slower than other riders on flatter or rolling terrain, and i have the plus tires. On the harder stuff, it gives me more margin for error. It climbs well but then again i have the plus tires.

Now if I had two bikes, it wouldn't be what I bought but I can't afford two.

 

The thing about the Switchblade is that as well as helping decrease the length of the chainstays, whilst also allowing the use of a front mech, the 157mm Super Boost helps makes the thing ultra stiff, especially for bigger guys and people that tend to ride harder. I fall mainly into the first category and sometimes, I suppose and as a result of that into, the second too. So basically I've never had a bike that feels so able to cope so well with what I can dish out.

Bike Mag summed it up in their test late last year by finding much the same conclusion.

I understand that people like the option of building their wheels using their favourite hubs etc but Pivot pushed the game on with the Switchblade and they do offer various wheel builds to suit both ends of the scale, budget wise. I don't think Super Boost was a new standard for the sake of new standards, it actually moved the game on for a particular type of rider. There are plenty of bikes out there for other riders who might not see the benefits.


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The thing about the Switchblade is that as well as helping decrease the length of the chainstays, whilst also allowing the use of a front mech, the 157mm Super Boost helps makes the thing ultra stiff, especially for bigger guys and people that tend to ride harder.

Yes, I agree that the bike is very stiff and that is one of the things I like about it. What I remain unconvinced of, is that boosty boost was required to get there. My understanding is it was the combination of all the features Pivot crammed into the bike that necessitated the change. My question is, could they have made the bike without one of the features? Would dumping the FD compatibility, adding a few mm of chainstay, having less clearance than 3.25"(!) tires, or eliminating a pragmatically irrelevant amount of stiffness, have done the trick? Sure, it's great to have all this stuff, but it comes with huge trade-offs. No frames available, misleading info coming from the manufacturer on hub availability, and stupid expensive "wheelset kits".

I presume I'm a minority, but I want FD compatibility. And I don't perceive that the FD support played any significant role in pushing them to 157mm. To the best of my knowledge, the 157 spacing wasn't even critical to achieve the short stays. The Switchblade could have easily been made with a standard Boost hub and "suffered" relatively minor compromises, in my opinion. 157 was chosen primarily to provide unprecedented stiffness (despite other stiffness-reducing choices like 28 spoke wheels).

Fair point about your affinity for 2x compatibility. We all like/require different things.

I'm also highly confused about the choice of 28-spoke wheels. Make a frankenstein frame to increase stiffness, but then build it with 28h wheels. What?

There will be Superboost+ bikes coming from other manufacturers.

FWIW, I have three rear wheels for my SB. None of them are Superboost+. Two are built on old DT Swiss 340 hubs I picked up for less than $50, together, on eBay. That was an outstanding deal, but you can pickup similar models under $170 all day on eBay.

If you want Superboost+ there seems to be options, just not from DT at the moment.

Entirely possible about future bikes from other manufacturers. You would be in a better position to know than me. That still doesn't really make up for the fact that consumers still can't buy a Switchblade frame, and you've even resorted to less-than-ideal wheelbuilding to get around the boosty boost issue.

The entire thing seems like an unnecessary carnival to me. I get that others may disagree and I respect those opinions, too. I'm mostly just frustrated because I do like the bike a lot, but I will not buy a complete bike to tear it down and build it with the parts I like. Too much wasted money, too much hassle. Frame availability is a crucial aspect of the high-end market and Pivot has fallen short here.

 

As for Pivot going back to regular 148x12 boost for the Switchblade, it does not seem to offer anything over the existing 157mm downhill hubs in terms of flange width.

I've read that regular rear 142mm hubs have a max flange width around 55-56 mm. Boost adds 6 mm max, for 61-62mm.

There appears to be many DH hubs with at least that spacing. For example, project321's DH hub has a flange width of 62.5. In another thread, there's this information (not sure if correct) -

LyNx Nuke Proof 150/157 hub: 36.5/26.5 -- that's 63mm flange width

41/29 (NS Bikes Rotary) -- that's 70mm flange width

38.5/25 (Chris King) - 63.5 mm flange width

http://forums.mtbr.com/pivot-cycles/so-about-new-hub-standard-1016647.html

Now i don't believe any of those hubs have center lock, so they don't really solve my issue. Also, super boost appears to be 70mm flange width max. The I9 hub is 70.3. The factory DT wheels measure about 70 mm to the outside of the flange, but being straight pull the spoke appear to be 1-3 mm to the inside of that depending on the spoke.

Of course there's a lot more regular boost hubs out there, including with center lock. So downhill hubs without the increased 70mm flange spacing, i.e., the majority, do not offer anything over regular boost. And if you already have regular boost wheels, again, these downhill hubs with 62-63 mm flange width don't give you anything.

But these dH hubs also are equivalent to regular boost so you're not hurt by using them (except again no center lock for any of them except maybe stans, which seem to have issues)

oh also there's Onyx which I believe is 70 mm flange (or about), but it's heavy. Not sure I value silence that much.

 

Just ordered a Float DPX2 to try out on the switchblade. Anyone played with spacers and sag settings yet to give me a starting point. Hoping it still gives good pedaling performance with an enhacement in traction and cush for park riding.

 

Lot of whiners around here. There's a ton of bikes on the market. If you don't like what Pivot is selling look elsewhere. No shortage of people lining up for the always over hyped Santa Cruz. I love my Switchblade. I'll be first in line for the next Mach 6. If you can afford an $8000 bike you have no reason to *****. Buy what you want and love it.

 

If you can afford an $8000 bike you have no reason to *****.

I would contend this is the opposite of what one should expect. If you buy a Ford Focus you can *****, but if you buy a Lamborghini that disappoints you, bitching isn't allowed? If one spends $8000 on a bike, you have every reason to expect near-perfection. If one spends $200 on a bike, I think you have little reason to *****.

People can love their Switchblade and still have criticisms of it. Especially if the criticisms are about some of the semi-questionable statements made by Pivot over the past year. Even the availability of wheelsets is relatively exaggerated in Chris' comments above: I went to three dealers in an attempt to purchase a wheelset, the first two said they weren't available, the third told me I had to first submit my serial number so Pivot could review and approve the wheelset sale, and assuming they "approve" they will only sell the same wheelset (ie, if you have the Reynolds 27.5 wheels, they won't sell you the DT 29 wheels). Its a lot of hoops to jump through for new hoops.

I think its legitimate to "whine" about this. Chris C preached aggressively when the Switchblade was introduced about how the rear hub spacing was NOT proprietary. Technically, this is true. But it ignores the fact that the Pivot approach to support of the hub carries all of the worst attributes of proprietary products (limited availability, high prices, etc).

Thankfully, there are ample ways to adapt, albeit with small compromises. My 29er wheelset was $525 built on DT 350 front, DT 350 DH rear w/ 36T ratchet, Easton Arc 30 rims, Sapim butted spokes, XT ice tech rotors, and Vittoria Morsa G+ tires. Its about 150g heavier than the $1600 ($1760 w/ tax) wheelset from Pivot but functionally gives up nothing. Except the centerlock mount on the rear . . . and yes, that irritates me.

 

Regarding super boost bikes from other manufacturers, I believe Mondraker already has one out.

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I hate to say it, but if you don't like the hub standard and the current availability, don't buy the bike. For the price point, you can literally buy any bike on the market that can check all your boxes.

I've got a couple rear wheels built up now using superboost hubs (stans and I9). Getting them hasn't been hard and they have survived a year of big back country rides, bike parks, and racing, including EWS.

The only two things on my wish list are a Switchblade LT (a la Hightower LT) and the ability to run coil shocks (the Fox X2 is not bad AT ALL).

 

I hate to say it, but if you don't like the hub standard and the current availability, don't buy the bike. For the price point, you can literally buy any bike on the market that can check all your boxes.

That's exactly what I did and went with a Hightower.

So the HT is my all around bike. My Firebird is my destroyer of worlds bike.

 

This are my first words into this Forum.
First I want to say sorry for my bad English but I´m working on it.

I have a switchblade since October 2016 - and I bought the frame with fork only from a dealer - they sold all parts from a bike separate.

That means I know the problem with the 157x12 super boost standard hubs - if this frame then with the wide flanges and not only with a 157mm hub!

In the beginning I decided to go with i9 and I love the 120 possible engagements, especially for technical trails, but I really dont like the noise - and this grease thing I tried but ......

A few days ago I saw the offer for a used DT-Swiss 27,5+ wheel set - the Switchblade OEM version and decided to bought it only to have the rear hub - but now I´m thinking to use it as it is. To try the 27,5plus thing - until now I´m not sure if there are any advantages to 29" but I can try it for less costs.

But my concern is this 17mm cup below head set - currently I use 29" with 160mm travel at fork and the "zero offset cup" - this is fine for me.

But when I want to switch to 27,5+ I must use the 17mm cup but is it then to much with the 160mm and 29" when I switch back?
Or must I always change the cup with the wheel size - this would be not the easiest way.

Does someone uses 17mm cup , 160mm and 29?
What are your experiences?

Other question - I´m not sure with this plus wheels (tried a fat bike 26x4,0 and it not really like it) - does some have experience with 160mm 17mm cup and the OEM 27,5wheels (40mm inner) and Maxxis 27,5x2,5WT front and rear??
I have a 170mm crank arm and size "L".

Thanks for your comments - I really like to read here - Pivot is in Germany coming but not that much visible in German forums that I can discuss items as above.

Dorsdn

 

This are my first words into this Forum.
First I want to say sorry for my bad English but I´m working on it.

I have a switchblade since October 2016 - and I bought the frame with fork only from a dealer - they sold all parts from a bike separate.

That means I know the problem with the 157x12 super boost standard hubs - if this frame then with the wide flanges and not only with a 157mm hub!

In the beginning I decided to go with i9 and I love the 120 possible engagements, especially for technical trails, but I really dont like the noise - and this grease thing I tried but ......

A few days ago I saw the offer for a used DT-Swiss 27,5+ wheel set - the Switchblade OEM version and decided to bought it only to have the rear hub - but now I´m thinking to use it as it is. To try the 27,5plus thing - until now I´m not sure if there are any advantages to 29" but I can try it for less costs.

But my concern is this 17mm cup below head set - currently I use 29" with 160mm travel at fork and the "zero offset cup" - this is fine for me.

But when I want to switch to 27,5+ I must use the 17mm cup but is it then to much with the 160mm and 29" when I switch back?
Or must I always change the cup with the wheel size - this would be not the easiest way.

Does someone uses 17mm cup , 160mm and 29?
What are your experiences?

Other question - I´m not sure with this plus wheels (tried a fat bike 26x4,0 and it not really like it) - does some have experience with 160mm 17mm cup and the OEM 27,5wheels (40mm inner) and Maxxis 27,5x2,5WT front and rear??
I have a 170mm crank arm and size "L".

Thanks for your comments - I really like to read here - Pivot is in Germany coming but not that much visible in German forums that I can discuss items as above.

Dorsdn

Welcome to the forums.

Running a 160mm fork w/ 2.5 tires and 17mm cup is going to leave the BB only slightly lower than a stock 150mm fork and 2.8 tires, so you'd be relatively OK. If you run a 150mm fork and 27.5x2.5 tires you may encounter relatively frequent pedal strikes, even with 170mm cranks and the 17mm cup. With 2.5 tires and the zero stack cup and 150mm fork, the pedal strikes are likely to be pretty bad. The 160mm fork is sort of equivalent to running an 8mm cup (10mm sagged 20%) so you're in the middle of what they intend, but the 2.5 tires are dropping the BB even further.
Pivot clearly intends for the 17mm cup to be used w/ 27.5 (x 2.8 or bigger) and the zero stack cup for 29, and they spec their geometry that way. But of course, its ridiculous to think that anyone is changing their headset cup every day. That's another reason I find it silly that Chris C so strongly emphasized the very specific/identical wheelsets so changes can be made in minutes and retain perfect shifting and brake alignment . . . yet he completely ignores the 17mm cup issue in that discussion.

If one want to go back/forth a lot w/ 27.5 and 29, a solution that seems practical to me is a TALAS fork set for 160mm and 140mm. Use the zero stack cup, and set the fork to 160mm for 27.5 and 140mm for 29. Unsagged head angle would be about 67deg with 27.5 and 67.75deg with 29, so a tiny bit steeper than stock geo's, but you'd never have to change the cup.

I ran the 17mm cup with 160mm fork for a while (I was waiting on a zero stack cup) and 27.5x3.0 tires. Personally, I find it to be too much. Others may like it, but the resulting 66deg head angle (plus the short chainstays, slack actual seat tube angle with very long extension on XL, etc) makes it increasingly difficult to weight the front end, and I was getting a fair amount of wheel flop when climbing. It was fine on high speed descents, arguably even better than the stock configuration, but the trade-off in slow speed handling just wasn't worth it to me.

Dabbling with the 27.5+ tires was interesting and fun, but I think I'm likely to run 29 the vast majority of the time, and only move to 27.5+ for very specific trail conditions.

 

How do you like the HT, coming from a dw link pivot? I had Firebird (gen 1), 5.7 Carbon, and currently have a Blur LT V2 and my trusty Yeti ASR7, so I have extended riding experienced with all 4. Recently looking at 27.5+, Switchblade or HT, and I demoed the HT out at Papago and really really liked it but have not had a chance to demo the Switchblade. What are your general overall impression between the HT and the Bird.

Thanks

 

I don't have much perspective on the Switchblade vs. the Hightower, but I can give you some thoughts on how the HT and the Firebird are for my riding style and terrain.

It helps to give a little background though - I started with Pivot on the 429 Carbon (Team Green) as my first real MTB - but quickly found it to be a bit overwhelmed in the chunky stuff. So that was when I purchased a Medium Mach 6 to compliment the 429 Carbon. I always felt super cramped on the M6 (this was before I understood what reach was) and upgraded to a medium Mach 6. That bike served me well for about a year, but still felt cramped in certain situations. I started understanding about reach, etc. and realized that the Mach 6, even in the large, was a very short reach bike. It was then that I sold it and upgraded to the Firebird. Total game changer. The geo on the 'Bird is just perfection for me. It climbs REALLY well (like not just for a 170mm bike, but well in general). No, its not going to beat a hard tail XC bike, but I think that folks who pedal up what they come down (and folks that actually descend chunky / rocky steep terrain) would really enjoy this bike as their one and only trail / park / AM bike. I think the Mach 5.5 probably hits the "one bike to rule them all" mark as well, but if you need more travel, the Firebird is your bike.

On the XC side, I ultimately traded in my green 429 Carbon for a 429 Trail. That bike is a REALLY great bike and for most people probably all they need. But again, in some situations, I felt I was on the edge of what the bike can handle at 140mm travel and the heat tube angle (the rear 116mm travel never gave me any pause). So it was up to either the Switchblade or the Hightower as the upgrade bike for my all rounder.

I tried both in the parking lot, and the HT felt more "neutral" to me in the sense that I felt right at home on the bike immediately. I also didn't want to have the boosty boost / additional wheel set / hub standard. So I bought the HT and it has been a great bike.

Ok - so now I have the Hightower (135/150mm) and the Firebird (170/170mm). Right off the top, the difference between DW link and VPP is subtle but its there. DW Link has slightly less anti squat, but at the penalty of being to handle square edges as smoothly - the best way I can put it is if you have DW link and let 3-5 psi out of your tires, you are approaching what VPP feels like - it just feels more compliant to square edge rocks. If you find yourself in chunky, technical terrain that you have to pedal through, I find the VPP better for this setting. The DW Link kind of gets hung up a bit more so it takes a bit more effort to get the bike through chunky sections. Once you are past the antisquat point, the linkage is very smooth and progressive. VPP on the other hand seems to make moving through slow speed technical sections a bit easier to time in the sense that the compression and rebound seem more "predictable" if that makes sense.

For climbing steep, loose terrain that is less chunky, the DW link, because the bike bobs a tad less, tends to hold its traction better. But I think a rider can adapt to this on VPP after a few weeks of riding.

For the Firebird, I feel DW Link is probably a better platform because it sort of keeps the bike from entering the "soft zone" of the 170mm of travel until you need it. Once you break past the antisquat, the bike is super plush. Additionally, it keeps the bike higher in its travel. This plus the 74 degree seat angle are what I think make the Firebird such a great climber. I don't think the Firebird with VPP would feel as good. Also in the case of pedaling through chunky terrain, the DW is your friend here as it minimizes how deep into the travel you get which can be tough to deal with in that kind of terrain.

A lot of this has been how the bikes climb. On the downs, it is what you would expect. In this case, the VPP maintains a nice feel over chunky rocks - it is lively without being too bouncy. The suspension feels very smooth and capable and I don't really think about the fact that the bike has 135mm suspension in the rear. For my riding, this bike could really be my one bike. With the 29 x 2.6 tires, I feel super confident on the HT.

The Firebird is really another level in terms of what you can do going downhill. Line choices are nearly inconsequential / rocks looks smaller / drops look shorter. Once past the antisquat and once you start hauling ass where the rear shock is in the middle of its stroke, it is just insane how the bike hauls ass over whatever you throw at it. The only concern one has would be trees, cliffs, man eating ruts, etc where even the Bird won't save you.

Hope that gives some perspective!

 

Super boost will be a accepted "standard " just give SRAM a year or two so it's HB's "idea"and even Shimano will follow suite. Be patient young bikers...

 

@InertiaMan - thanks for your post.

I will stay with 29er and forget the 27,5plus - thats with the 17mm CUP to complicated to switch.
I prefere to have a second 29er wheelset.

One "heavier and robust" and one perhaps with the Schwalbe Nobby Nic 29x2,6 or only "light and fast".
I will see.

Dorsdn

 

I wonder how much wheel/tire size plays a role in some of this assessment. 29x2.6 vs 27.5x?... I would expect the 27.5 to get hung up more easily.


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I wonder how much wheel/tire size plays a role in some of this assessment. 29x2.6 vs 27.5x?... I would expect the 27.5 to get hung up more easily.

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I've ridden the Hightower with 27.5 x 2.8, 29 x 2.3, 29 x 2.5 and 29 x 2.6. In all cases the VPP is better for square edge absorption than DW Link (which I have also ridden with several size tires).

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This is the first time I've ever heard where someone thinks that VPP is better at coping with square edge bumps and hits. I'm not arguing, I'm sure that is your finding, but I've always found the opposite to be true. That's comparing like for like when I was testing the Hightower, Ibis Mojo and the Switchblade to figure out what I wanted and it was one of the deciding factors for the Switchblade in the end.

I've had quite a few Intense and a couple of SC in the past but have always favoured the DW Link since I first tried one.


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Anyway, if this detracts from the Superboost diatribe I'm all for it! [emoji38]

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I concur with mid-stroke performance being snappier or less vague/wallowy with DW, and that it tends to sit further up in the travel. I haven't had much time on the latest VPP bikes, and none on the HT, but square edge performance was always as good or better with DW for me. Less loss of momentum. I still think that wheel/tire combination will have an effect on this category of performance as well. Nothing in 27.5+ (2.8-3.0) or 29 of any size, 2.3 or larger in particular, will have the same rollover characteristics of a 27.5 of 2.6 or smaller. I'm sure the findings above are a real experience, but not exactly apples to apples in terms of the comparison. Nomad vs Firebird, Switchblade vs Hightower, 429 vs Tallboy, these would be more consistent comparisons.


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Not sure how DW Link be better for square edge bump compliance - the whole point of DW Link is to maximize anti squat - you don't get that for free - more anti squat will cost you a bit on square edge bump compliance. That's exactly what I feel on DW Link vs. VPP.

 

I'm not a suspension analyst, but if you're commenting on older iterations of VPP, you really need to ride the newest version.

I'm a fan of both, but for Phoenix riding, I tend to prefer VPP. Our trails are basically one square edge after another. DW does have a lot going for it, particularly on Pivot's current designs. Sits up high, clean tight design. But having owned a 'Blade, I'll stick with my Nomad.