Coming May 31st, according to Pivot website. Any ideas what it is?
My old Titus Switchblade was one of my favorite bikes ever.
My old Titus Switchblade was one of my favorite bikes ever.
Pivot Switchblade
BmanInTheD
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I've been riding my 27.5+ Switchblade with DT wheels for five months now and have enough $ now to get 29er wheels. My plan all along was to have the basic factory wheels for Plus just to try it out, but to build some carbon 29er wheels later. Except there's the limited hub issue still!
Yes, you can buy the I9 hubs but they still seem to be the only source for super boost. Pivot tells you (just yesterday they did) that the hubs are available from DT. No they are not - I called them and talked to someone knowledgeable and he said no we just ship them to Pivot. Now I9 seems OK, but somehow I got it in my head I prefer center lock and I9 only sells six bolt super boost hubs even though they ship center lock ones to Reynolds or Pivot for the factory upgrade wheels.
Maybe this is silly but it does seem that center lock is a bit more modern and a sounder design in my opinion. Plus I have the center lock rotors on my plus wheels and do I really need so many different rotor types for spares? Geez with center lock hubs I could even switch the rotors between the 29 and plus wheels. With center lock it takes like 2 seconds to change a rotor.
So Pivot now sells a second wheel set to existing Switchblade owners -- with center lock like the factory wheels -- but for some unknown reason they insist you buy tires, rotors, a new eagle cassette along with it. And I don't even like the aluminum rims or the rim width. I was kind of planning on chinese carbon around 30mm. So really, do i have to spend $1400 just to get a rear super boost DT hub and buy all this other stuff i don't want? Why can't Pivot sell the hubs. They say it's prohibited by their OEM contracts. OK, maybe Pivot needs a new lawyer - I can see DT not wanting Pivot to sell hubs if DT itself will sell them, but they won't at least right now. Can't someone at Pivot get a waiver from DT for pivot to sell the hubs separately?
So end of my rant. couple of options -
1) give up on center lock and just buy the I9 hubs (probably the most sensible but still)
2) buy the second factory wheelset from Pivot and just ignore the wide/carbon fad. Sell off the cassette, rotors and tires to recoup some of the cost.
3) buy some 157 dh hubs. Does anyone know of the widest flange 157 DH hub with center lock? SRAM XO appears to be six bolt only.
4) keep riding my Plus wheels for now. actually i just switched to 3.0 WTB Rangers and like them much better than the 2.8 Rekons. Same weight, more traction, larger diameter more like 29er
Yes, you can buy the I9 hubs but they still seem to be the only source for super boost. Pivot tells you (just yesterday they did) that the hubs are available from DT. No they are not - I called them and talked to someone knowledgeable and he said no we just ship them to Pivot. Now I9 seems OK, but somehow I got it in my head I prefer center lock and I9 only sells six bolt super boost hubs even though they ship center lock ones to Reynolds or Pivot for the factory upgrade wheels.
Maybe this is silly but it does seem that center lock is a bit more modern and a sounder design in my opinion. Plus I have the center lock rotors on my plus wheels and do I really need so many different rotor types for spares? Geez with center lock hubs I could even switch the rotors between the 29 and plus wheels. With center lock it takes like 2 seconds to change a rotor.
So Pivot now sells a second wheel set to existing Switchblade owners -- with center lock like the factory wheels -- but for some unknown reason they insist you buy tires, rotors, a new eagle cassette along with it. And I don't even like the aluminum rims or the rim width. I was kind of planning on chinese carbon around 30mm. So really, do i have to spend $1400 just to get a rear super boost DT hub and buy all this other stuff i don't want? Why can't Pivot sell the hubs. They say it's prohibited by their OEM contracts. OK, maybe Pivot needs a new lawyer - I can see DT not wanting Pivot to sell hubs if DT itself will sell them, but they won't at least right now. Can't someone at Pivot get a waiver from DT for pivot to sell the hubs separately?
So end of my rant. couple of options -
1) give up on center lock and just buy the I9 hubs (probably the most sensible but still)
2) buy the second factory wheelset from Pivot and just ignore the wide/carbon fad. Sell off the cassette, rotors and tires to recoup some of the cost.
3) buy some 157 dh hubs. Does anyone know of the widest flange 157 DH hub with center lock? SRAM XO appears to be six bolt only.
4) keep riding my Plus wheels for now. actually i just switched to 3.0 WTB Rangers and like them much better than the 2.8 Rekons. Same weight, more traction, larger diameter more like 29er
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1,589 Posts
Sram XO, DH 157mm new version that's what I built my 27.5 wheel. Quote from Pivot when I inquired about use " Excellent choice for rear hub " flange width exactly same as I9 157mm super boost.
Well that sux, my plan was to build up some I9 center locks as well. If I am building from scratch, it ain't gonna be 6 bolt.
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2,206 Posts
This^^^ NOX builds GREAT wheels. And lighter than the ones Pivot sells.
I have two sets of Nox wheels, and love them both. Great guys to work with and really well built.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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509 Posts
You can get Centerlock hubs from Onyx for your Switchblade in Superboost plus (or whatever the heck Pivot calls it). Not as light as I9, but they are solid, smooth, and dead silent. I have one mtb with I9 Torch and another with Onyx. I prefer the Onyx by a wide margin. It's so nice to have a quiet bike! I didn't mind the pre-torch I9 freehub noise, but their current hubs are obnoxiously loud.
https://onyxrp.com/product-category/downhill-bike-hubs/
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6,350 Posts
I asked Chris C about this and he asked me to post his reply here:
"We always appreciate the feedback but at the same time these comments are not entirely correct and does not really take into account the reasons that Pivot handles things the way it does. For starters, we want customers that want to switch between wheelsets to be able to do so without any compatibility issues. If a rotor is moved .25mm one way or another then the brakes will need to be re-adjusted as well. A .5mm difference in the cassette body placement could be the difference between your derailleur shifting perfectly or going into the spokes. It seems like every hub would be the same in this respect, but they are not even close. This is why we offer the 2nd wheelset complete and also want them to be matched. Also, the rotors and lockrings on bicycle wheels are not really designed to be swapped out on a day to day basis. The threads are fine pitch and the ridges on the lockrings for both the rotors and cassette are fairly fine as well. If a customer buys a 2nd wheelset, we want that rider to be able to switch back and forth in less than a couple minutes and know that the brakes and shifting will not need to be adjusted. That is why we offer the 2nd wheelset at the same level with the same hubs, rotors and cassette. We know that our customer will be happy, have no issues and will be able to maximize the use of both wheelsets.
As for the comments below regarding DT Swiss, we have spoken with them and they are working towards an aftermarket hub solution. Currently, the Superboost 157 hubs that they have are all being used to build complete wheelsets, but this will change. It will just take some time. We are not a components distributor but dealers will have access to the hubs.
As for I9, as a company, I9 just recently added some models in centerlock, but not all models. The comments below are interesting as we also get feedback asking for 6 bolt. I know that different riders have different preferences but in this case 6 bolt and centerlock systems work perfectly and there are good reasons for both. However, many DT Swiss wheel models that we use on our bikes are only offered in a centerlock configuration and the Reynolds wheels use I9 hubs that have centerlock outer hub shells specially designed for the Reynolds wheel system. In the end, building a second wheelset with an I9 hub that has 6 bolt is still a really nice choice. The SRAM XO hub is also a good choice at a lower price point and Stan's has also adopted the wide flange design on their 157mm hubs so there are a good number of high quality options in the marketplace.
Without getting too into all the tech details, the Switchblade is a better bike because of the SB+ 157mm system and we have worked hard to make sure that it has good aftermarket support, but also internal support from Pivot. If someone likes the concept of switching wheels back and forth, it's worth spending the little bit of extra money to not have to take the cassette and rotors off the wheels every time you want to switch and also to know that the hubs are the same brand and model so that the tolerances are identical. We also price the 2nd wheelset option very aggressively so that it makes it the most economical option vs. trying to build something up aftermarket. We know that a customer who gets both wheelsets from Pivot will have a great experience .
As for building a Chinese, no name carbon wheelset at a lower price, we cannot recommend this option. We have seen so many poorly made carbon rims that we feel the risk is just way too high for saving a few bucks. We like to see our customers keep themselves in one piece, and for that it's worth the price of admission to buy a wheelset or rim from a manufacturer that knows what they are doing, has done all the testing and has the warranty and the insurance in place so that you know that the company you purchased from stands behind their product and takes your safety seriously".
"We always appreciate the feedback but at the same time these comments are not entirely correct and does not really take into account the reasons that Pivot handles things the way it does. For starters, we want customers that want to switch between wheelsets to be able to do so without any compatibility issues. If a rotor is moved .25mm one way or another then the brakes will need to be re-adjusted as well. A .5mm difference in the cassette body placement could be the difference between your derailleur shifting perfectly or going into the spokes. It seems like every hub would be the same in this respect, but they are not even close. This is why we offer the 2nd wheelset complete and also want them to be matched. Also, the rotors and lockrings on bicycle wheels are not really designed to be swapped out on a day to day basis. The threads are fine pitch and the ridges on the lockrings for both the rotors and cassette are fairly fine as well. If a customer buys a 2nd wheelset, we want that rider to be able to switch back and forth in less than a couple minutes and know that the brakes and shifting will not need to be adjusted. That is why we offer the 2nd wheelset at the same level with the same hubs, rotors and cassette. We know that our customer will be happy, have no issues and will be able to maximize the use of both wheelsets.
As for the comments below regarding DT Swiss, we have spoken with them and they are working towards an aftermarket hub solution. Currently, the Superboost 157 hubs that they have are all being used to build complete wheelsets, but this will change. It will just take some time. We are not a components distributor but dealers will have access to the hubs.
As for I9, as a company, I9 just recently added some models in centerlock, but not all models. The comments below are interesting as we also get feedback asking for 6 bolt. I know that different riders have different preferences but in this case 6 bolt and centerlock systems work perfectly and there are good reasons for both. However, many DT Swiss wheel models that we use on our bikes are only offered in a centerlock configuration and the Reynolds wheels use I9 hubs that have centerlock outer hub shells specially designed for the Reynolds wheel system. In the end, building a second wheelset with an I9 hub that has 6 bolt is still a really nice choice. The SRAM XO hub is also a good choice at a lower price point and Stan's has also adopted the wide flange design on their 157mm hubs so there are a good number of high quality options in the marketplace.
Without getting too into all the tech details, the Switchblade is a better bike because of the SB+ 157mm system and we have worked hard to make sure that it has good aftermarket support, but also internal support from Pivot. If someone likes the concept of switching wheels back and forth, it's worth spending the little bit of extra money to not have to take the cassette and rotors off the wheels every time you want to switch and also to know that the hubs are the same brand and model so that the tolerances are identical. We also price the 2nd wheelset option very aggressively so that it makes it the most economical option vs. trying to build something up aftermarket. We know that a customer who gets both wheelsets from Pivot will have a great experience .
As for building a Chinese, no name carbon wheelset at a lower price, we cannot recommend this option. We have seen so many poorly made carbon rims that we feel the risk is just way too high for saving a few bucks. We like to see our customers keep themselves in one piece, and for that it's worth the price of admission to buy a wheelset or rim from a manufacturer that knows what they are doing, has done all the testing and has the warranty and the insurance in place so that you know that the company you purchased from stands behind their product and takes your safety seriously".
Geez, I didn’t expect a response from C. Cocalis, but just a few things -
I really like my Switchblade and understand the benefits of super boost.
Right now I would buy the center lock super boost hubs DT makes, or I-9 makes. I would be happy to buy those but they won’t sell them. Stans - there are reports of issues with the hubs. Onynx maybe but not sure about the weight. So instead right now I think I’m just going to wait and keep riding the plus wheels. I actually like them a lot!
I don’t really want to buy a full wheel set with tires, etc. from Pivot. It’s maybe a nice option for some. The biggest issue is I want to choose the rim. I would like 30 mm, not 25mm like the factory wheels. I would like carbon, not aluminum. I didn’t necessarily say cheap chinese carbon. Nox, Derby, there are other sources besides the cheapest options.
I don’t really plan to switch back and forth between the wheels on a daily basis. I might switch to the 29 wheels and never go back to 27+. I might switch every few months. I don’t know. But certainly one can move a cassette and rotors between wheels every few months and adjust the calipers and rear derailleur.
So anyways, this is hardly a big deal in the large scope of life but it would be great if Pivot and/or DT could simply find a way to sell the hubs aftermarket that DT is already making. That would be super and much appreciated.
I really like my Switchblade and understand the benefits of super boost.
Right now I would buy the center lock super boost hubs DT makes, or I-9 makes. I would be happy to buy those but they won’t sell them. Stans - there are reports of issues with the hubs. Onynx maybe but not sure about the weight. So instead right now I think I’m just going to wait and keep riding the plus wheels. I actually like them a lot!
I don’t really want to buy a full wheel set with tires, etc. from Pivot. It’s maybe a nice option for some. The biggest issue is I want to choose the rim. I would like 30 mm, not 25mm like the factory wheels. I would like carbon, not aluminum. I didn’t necessarily say cheap chinese carbon. Nox, Derby, there are other sources besides the cheapest options.
I don’t really plan to switch back and forth between the wheels on a daily basis. I might switch to the 29 wheels and never go back to 27+. I might switch every few months. I don’t know. But certainly one can move a cassette and rotors between wheels every few months and adjust the calipers and rear derailleur.
So anyways, this is hardly a big deal in the large scope of life but it would be great if Pivot and/or DT could simply find a way to sell the hubs aftermarket that DT is already making. That would be super and much appreciated.
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6,350 Posts
I hear you with the wheels, I kinda like to do my own build on those as well (it's partly a nice custom touch but I also lean more towards the DH style rims since I beat mine up so bad). I'll pass on your response, we use feedback from customers & dealers to help decide which options we want to offer (and what to ask our vendors for).
Ride on!
Ride on!
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1,913 Posts
Well at least Chris C's statement above finally acknowledges that DT is NOT currently selling this hub. I can point to multiple interviews/articles in the past year where Chris explicitly states that the "superboost" hubs are available from DT, which was simply not true. A year after product intro, its still not true.
As for his explanation for selling full wheelsets, his points don't resonate with me. For one, he totally ignores the bed-in of pads and rotors. That issue alone would lead me to swapping centerlock rotors on two wheelsets, to ensure that the pad/rotor combination remains identical. If the rotor position is off -- and that is EXTREMELY unlikely in my experience when using identical models of DT hubs -- the fix is a trivial re-adjustment of the caliper position. If the cassette is off by 0.5mm, again its a trivial fix: turn your barrel adjuster one notch.
As for Chris' claim that Pivot are pricing the second wheelset "very aggressively" that seems like hyperbole. $1599 for the DT wheels is substantially higher than the sum of the full msrp of every component in the wheels (hubset, rims, tires, spokes, rotors, cassette). If one shops aggressively, you can do it a fraction of that price. I built a set of DT 350 Boost centerlock wheels w/ XM481 rims and butted spokes w/ ice tech rotors and Maxxis rubber for <$700. And I got to pick my own tires and rims.
I don't see anyone on the forum changing wheels daily. More typical is a change for seasons, or a change for a trip to a location w/ specific trail conditions, etc. Lets say 10 changes per year for a random average. The centerlock and cassette lockring threads are more than up to that task.
EDIT: another observation: from Chris: "We are not a components distributor but dealers will have access to the hubs.
And yet Pivot distributes and sells both stems and handlebars, which seem to me to be components.
Just be honest with us Chris. Pivot sells only full wheelsets because your profit margins are better. Its a legit position to take, its a rationale I can understand. But ignoring that obvious benefit/strategy, and acting like no one could possibly build their own wheelset around a centerlock DT 350 157mm hub and have it work well, is not a rationale I'm buying.
As for his explanation for selling full wheelsets, his points don't resonate with me. For one, he totally ignores the bed-in of pads and rotors. That issue alone would lead me to swapping centerlock rotors on two wheelsets, to ensure that the pad/rotor combination remains identical. If the rotor position is off -- and that is EXTREMELY unlikely in my experience when using identical models of DT hubs -- the fix is a trivial re-adjustment of the caliper position. If the cassette is off by 0.5mm, again its a trivial fix: turn your barrel adjuster one notch.
As for Chris' claim that Pivot are pricing the second wheelset "very aggressively" that seems like hyperbole. $1599 for the DT wheels is substantially higher than the sum of the full msrp of every component in the wheels (hubset, rims, tires, spokes, rotors, cassette). If one shops aggressively, you can do it a fraction of that price. I built a set of DT 350 Boost centerlock wheels w/ XM481 rims and butted spokes w/ ice tech rotors and Maxxis rubber for <$700. And I got to pick my own tires and rims.
I don't see anyone on the forum changing wheels daily. More typical is a change for seasons, or a change for a trip to a location w/ specific trail conditions, etc. Lets say 10 changes per year for a random average. The centerlock and cassette lockring threads are more than up to that task.
EDIT: another observation: from Chris: "We are not a components distributor but dealers will have access to the hubs.
And yet Pivot distributes and sells both stems and handlebars, which seem to me to be components.
Just be honest with us Chris. Pivot sells only full wheelsets because your profit margins are better. Its a legit position to take, its a rationale I can understand. But ignoring that obvious benefit/strategy, and acting like no one could possibly build their own wheelset around a centerlock DT 350 157mm hub and have it work well, is not a rationale I'm buying.
Well said. I own a 429T but have considered trading to a Switchblade on several occasions. The only thing that keeps me from blowing more money is that proprietary hub size. I got burned with the Fisher 1-1/4" headset "standard" and vowed never to be put in that position again.
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509 Posts
The hub size definitely doesn't seem to be catching on with any manufacturer outside of Pivot. And, Pivot itself makes only one model with this spacing. It's a head-scratcher for sure. Probably a scenario where Pivot outsmarted itself. Turns something that should be simple, into something that causes headaches on multiple levels.
To not have any frame-only or frameset availability well over a year after release is absurd and really unfortunate. I'd like to own a Switchblade. But, unless it goes to an accepted hub standard, and/or frames become available, it's not happening for me. Way too much hassle.
Anyone know if Pivot could keep most of the benefits of the Switchblade (clearance, short chainstays, reasonable stiffness, etc.), but go to standard boost spacing just by deleting the front der compatibility? If so, that seems like the best solution.
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509 Posts
Hub spacing, yes. Flange spacing, no.
And, I suppose I should clarify that I'm referencing xc/trail/enduro bikes with standard bb spacing that people actually pedal. Not DH/FR bikes. The Switchblade is the only bike I'm aware of that uses this design, including all other Pivot bikes and bikes from other companies.
The point is, this bike is a huge pain in the rear for anyone with parts who wants a frame, because Pivot doesn't sell it. Plus, just about everyone who wants to build this bike up from a frame will also have to do some messing around to get a compatible rear wheel.
Further, for anyone who owns the bike, and wants to build their own backup/second/upgraded wheelset, Pivot has also made that substantially more difficult with how they're handling the distribution.
In short, the only reason you can't buy a frame is Super Boost Plus. The only reason a second wheelset is a PITA is Super Boost Plus. It's my thought that the juice isn't worth the squeeze. Pivot disagrees, at least for now.
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1,246 Posts
I have an offer for my X01 equipped 429T and if I add something like 800€ I could get lightly used SB with XT/XTR build, Factory suspension and DT Swiss alu wheels.
Should I?
I find that 429T fits me very well, can't fault the bike really. It's nicely balanced for the trails I ride and very versatile while being fun everywhere.
I fear that SB might be too much of a bike, heavier and less fun to ride due to more travel and beefed up suspension.
Can SB replace 429T for allround riding and offer more on top when things get hairy?
Should I?
I find that 429T fits me very well, can't fault the bike really. It's nicely balanced for the trails I ride and very versatile while being fun everywhere.
I fear that SB might be too much of a bike, heavier and less fun to ride due to more travel and beefed up suspension.
Can SB replace 429T for allround riding and offer more on top when things get hairy?
I think as consumers we're starting to see one of the drawbacks to carbon frame design. Once the molds are made, manufacturers are going to want to squeeze every last dime out of the mold, (and rightfully so). In the aluminum days builders like Turner could make geo and frame changes annually with a lower cost of experimentation. You might be waiting a while...
I suspect the reason the Switchblade isn't offered as a frame set as it could cut into complete sales, and there's only so many who would invest in the weird flange spacing aftermarket. If the model lasts into a second generation it'll probably come with regular "old" boost and 13mm axle, because screw you.
It reminds me of when CDs were beginning to take off and right after Sony decided it would try to get everyone to buy into Mini-Disk. I'm just not seeing a lot demand for the format in audio circles.
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