Wow, wow and a triple wow!

 

The only word that comes to mind is "bitchin".

 

Master Luke!

 

That's awesome! Where is that?

 

Thanks. It's in Austria, summit is almost 2200 m / 7200 ft, one of the few places that has snow currently

 

First one to ride 'em gets dibs on first ride report.

Spill it ASAP.

 

I feel this

When I got this early-season, it was "almost crust" and crust in some places, it was interesting coming down the steep stuff. I was able to go down like a 40% grade, but from experience, I knew I couldn't do it fast and I had to be way WAY behind the saddle and low. If your front wheel hits a hole or sinks further, you can eject so easily doing it.

So slow-descending on the steep slopes with the snow coming up at least to my hub, but still fun.


Fun, but you gotta know what you are doing.

 

Those are road width tires n wheels, Jayem! The OP has big boi tares, I say!!!

 

Yes he does!

 

I don’t know what to say other than that bike is RAD!!!

 

very nice buildup im interested to know more bout your viscoset in this application... if you care to answer.. by all means DM me and ill fire away instead of questionning on your post

 

"It's frustrating to watch you, you're not even struggling," said one of my best friends on the maiden voyage, "meanwhile, I can't air down the tire anymore."

He was pushing the 27.5 x 4.5 Gnarwhals at least one-third of a climb, sometimes even on flats. 5-7 cm (2-3 inches) of fresh, soft, fluffy snow, sometimes ground down into mashed potato quality with snow machine. Normally it would be the other way round, compared to my 26 x 4.6, my friend would have an edge in float and traction (him being a former roadie with great engine and technique also helps).

We switched bikes and the difference was obvious. To both of us. Now I couldn't ride or was struggling at best. The narrower-rounder 4.5 tire was slipping and digging, compared to the wider setup which had great traction and straight-line stability. Even the tire footprint in the snow was different-flatter. Viscoset certainly helped too and I will dampen it to the max.

Now, take into account this was just one ride (albeit in a very representative setting!), and neither of us has experience with tires wider than 4.5-4.8. I have no baseline to compare 2XL on 105 vs 128 mm rims. Can't say how much it adds if you already have 105 mm rims. Compared to 4.5-4.6 tires on 80-85 mm rims, the difference in pure traction, float, and straight-line stability is obviously huge. Exactly what I was looking for. Not only I was relieved by how well the whole build performed, in a few sections I was shocked by the traction. An even lower gear for not having to grind my knees would help too. For faster-firmer days I'll keep my narrower full sus fatty.

Can't speak of specific pressures, because in the 700 m (2150 ft) altitude difference it changes quite a bit. I aired it down to ~2 wrinkles mid-climb and it was uncomfortably low back at the trailhead. Next time I'll check with Messer low-pressure gauge, but I have a feeling it would help to have one ranging from 0-5 instead of 0-15 PSI

The bike setup is close to perfection, might need to tweak the cockpit and fork a bit. The longest dropper + Switchgrade combo allows comfy mounting-dismounting in unfavorable terrain, and the seat angle thingy helps on all grades. I've been using a crude system in the past (360º rotating seatpost head on Specialized Command), and this is a refined product from another universe in terms of quality and operation.

@Jayem, this is the way

@Marty01, you'll find all of the Viscoset info here:
https://www.mtbr.com/threads/damping-the-steering-for-riding-on-snow.1128021/ (with further links to Mike's blog)
And also here, make sure to check Dr. Welby's o-ring trick.

Steering Damping

I've done a search but either it hasn't been asked or my forum search abilities are poor. Rather than hijack mikesee's "Testing, One, Two" thread I thought I'd start a new one. In that thread or one of his blog posts linked from it he mentioned the Hopey Steering Damper as a means of improving...

www.mtbr.com

 

@Jayem, this is the way

I am following a different path.

Cakeeater 27.5x4.5 on 95 mm rims is larger in width (and obviously larger in height) than a Johnny5 on an 80mm rim. Crazy thing is these two wheels are the same size! This setup is absolutely HUGE.

 

Luke, all I can say with fats and snow (Snow layer knee deep or more) is that there are plenty of times that I have used pressures down to 50% rim drop in snow that will not form a snowball. Staying on the sled trail is required since the option is sink like the Titanic! This condition is where you cannot be intimidated by tire wrinkles. Winter and snow, rim drop is commonly 20-50%. A couple pair of tires that have extensive use are so stupid supple from all that trail time with minimal inflation. Part of the adventure, I suppose.

Following Mike's damper articles has been awesome. That gent has done a massive amount of testing and toiling in that area. A thanks, to Mike for that!

 

Luke, all I can say with fats and snow (Snow layer knee deep or more) is that there are plenty of times that I have used pressures down to 50% rim drop in snow that will not form a snowball. Staying on the sled trail is required since the option is sink like the Titanic! This condition is where you cannot be intimidated by tire wrinkles. Winter and snow, rim drop is commonly 20-50%. A couple pair of tires that have extensive use are so stupid supple from all that trail time with minimal inflation. Part of the adventure, I suppose.

Following Mike's damper articles has been awesome. That gent has done a massive amount of testing and toiling in that area. A thanks, to Mike for that!

I am seeing mike as a pioneer of sorts…well in reality.
As admitted, akin to OCD.
😎

 

@Jayem this setup looks huge! Too bad they don't make a 27.5 x 5.0 version. Do you have any measurements of the diameter and width of Cake Eater on a 95 mm?

With "this is the way" I was merely referring to this part So slow-descending on the steep slopes with the snow coming up at least to my hub, but still fun.

Got lots of stuff like this here too, with the right conditions it's a blast.

 

It's 120.0mm casing width and 119.0 tread width. While that is "only" 4.72, it's a real 4.72 and it's bigger than anything else I've been able to compare it to. The air volume is insane. One of the guys on a ride was rocking the J5s, so I was able to directly compare. While this is a bit wider, it's obviously so much taller so it just ends up dwarfing them. It looks massive riding on it and just looking down at your tire. We had our terminal-dump a little over a week ago where everything shut down because it just kept snowing, but I was out riding at the time and came upon a few souls that looked like they were struggling, compared to this setup. If I do any big races this year, like 100mi, I'll probably put D5s on there for the less rolling resistance, but the CE "4.5" is a massive 27.5 tire and on these rims, it makes me happy

 

Im of the opinion that tread pattern doesnt matter that much. Throughout many tires, many of which I havent kept, Ive never found something that provides “traction” on a surface where the the bonds between the individual snow crystals are weak or nonexistent. They all slide out and the balance of rim size to casing size seems to have far more effect for me.

Ive done the J5 thing. Its not bad, its quite good…but in this dynamic I cant tell much difference in any turning traction.

My last ride, before surgery last week, was in a storm where it must have snowed 4-5” just while I was riding (on top of soft). It was fabulous and the tires didnt let me down, but it wasnt packed snow.

I did ditch the CE for the last ITI for the D5 and I was so glad I did. In a year where we were able to ride 90% of it, the rolling resistance difference was huge.

It’s not like there are a lot of giant 27.5 yet either, not many bikes are going to support that…yet.

Anyway, not a disagreement, just my own observations.

 

Im of the opinion that tread pattern doesnt matter that much. Throughout many tires, many of which I havent kept, Ive never found something that provides “traction” on a surface where the the bonds between the individual snow crystals are weak or nonexistent. They all slide out and the balance of rim size to casing size seems to have far more effect for me.

Ive done the J5 thing. Its not bad, its quite good…but in this dynamic I cant tell much difference in any turning traction.

My last ride, before surgery last week, was in a storm where it must have snowed 4-5” just while I was riding (on top of soft). It was fabulous and the tires didnt let me down, but it wasnt packed snow.

I did ditch the CE for the last ITI for the D5 and I was so glad I did. In a year where we were able to ride 90% of it, the rolling resistance difference was huge.

It’s not like there are a lot of giant 27.5 yet either, not many bikes are going to support that…yet.

Anyway, not a disagreement, just my own observations.

I think we're saying the same thing -- in that the relative width of the tire and rim is more important than the tread block arrangement.

Back when Endomorphs were the only kid on the block -- and they had basically no knobs at all -- the difference in off-camber and soft snow performance between those tires on 65mm rims and 100mm rims couldn't be overstated.

CE's would be a lot better on ~110mm wide rims. But they'd be slower that way, and they still wouldn't come close to the grip + float of a J5 or 2XL.

Compromises.

 

Got a few rides in various conditions: deep dry fresh snow, fresh snow with higher moisture, a mix of old-firm snowpack, and a few artificial snow-covered slopes on ski pistes before they start operating.

Overall, extremely happy with how it turned out. The wheels do add a lot of extra float and traction that I've previously missed with 4.6" tires. Have a feeling there's more side grip too, but will need to do some back-to-back testing to confirm. It's not a magic potion though, with 15-25 cm of fresh snow it will favor flatter terrain and climbing won't be particularly enjoyable (or even possible to ride, depending on the ground-grip under). Going down, that extra float does come in handy. Overall, the ride is more "on top", calmer, and more predictable than with narrower tires.

In particular, I wanted to be able to ride in fresh snow and deep snow conditions and so far, this is showing lots of potential and improvement compared to my narrower ride.

Despite running higher pressures (7 PSI) on approaches, rolling resistance and wheel weight are noticeable on hardpack and especially tarmac. Yeah, tarmac, I know - but around here they do plow mountain roads, or some are paid-use only, so I'd gladly warm myself up rather than pay 11 USD for less than 2 km of asphalt road

I haven't experimented with ultra-low pressures between 0-0.5 PSI yet, because 1) I need to recalibrate my 0-15 PSI Meiser Accu-gage, 2) it's hard to measure below 1 PSI anyway, and 3) there were tours with 2000+ ft (700+ m) vertical difference, where pressure on top and bottom can vary a lot, and due to lack of deep snow cover I was on the safe side of the rim impacts. The self-steering is noticeable though when running 2XLs on below 2 PSI on hardpack only, which is expected and well-known.

A spiked 2XL or a wider Johnny (5.5?) would be the ultimate tire for all conditions. I do miss spikes on frozen or icy patches, so Johnny5 w/ XL studs will be mounted when the snow starts to transform.

Gears could be easily even lower than 24/50. There's so much grip and some climbs are so steep that there's too much grinding as opposed to gentler spinning.

The Viscoset, as mentioned, is a super cool addition, so I'll be increasing the damping to the max. to see if there are any downsides. The stock medium damping already works great, but I could use more.

Geometry-wise, the frame, wheels, and Mastodon EXT fork play nicely together, apart from a higher BB than usual due to tall tires. Steeper seat tube and slacker head tube are my preferred choices even on fatbikes, and Viscoset helps to calm down the front end during climbing.

Last but not least, as a taller rider I love the 240 mm dropper, don't have to lower the post on most descents now. Paired with Aenomaly Switchgrade, a significantly refined product compared to a crude mechanism I've been using for the past 13 years, this is next level. Naturally, a dropper helps with dismounts and easier starting in the deep snow, but your undercarriage will appreciate a different seat angle too when it gets steep either way

P.S. For Those that run Thule racks, you might need longer straps to fit these beasts to the existing rack. Eg. Proride 598 roof carrier has a fatbike wheel holder, but will need the XXL straps that are otherwise for rear Easyfold etc. racks (part 985101). I don't know if there's enough space-strap length on the rear rack with stock straps though.

 

Thanks for keeping the updates coming.

On my snowbike I run the Viscoset at max damping, paired with a Hopey steering damper that I adjust on-the-fly through every ride. Often both are at max.

Hopey will work with your Mastodon.

 

Thanks @mikesee. I think I'll try with the max damping first, on GF's bike that setting was already quite stiff, much to my surprise (maybe because the headset is new). Great to hear it will work with the fork.

 

I've got a few questions about the chainline and cassette, so to make things easier, below is my setup.

The tire will rub on the 2XL + 128 mm combo, unless one (or more) of the following are implemented:

• Wider rear end (eg. custom Meriwether 217 mm)
• Rear frame offset to shift the cassette outwards
• Removing 2-3 cassette cogs (won't work with high-end one-piece cassettes)

I went with the 11-speed Sunrace and butchered it a bit. The largest four cogs are one piece. I removed the next bit of three cogs (also one piece) and replaced it with 24-21T from Shimano I had at home. Mind the gap, use a suitable spacer to have the correct gap between the cogs. Then added one 15T before topping it up with another spacer and 11T + lockring.

The tooth count difference between the final 5 cogs is not ideal, but better done than perfect

 

Bummer to have to truncate, but it beats using narrower rims I guess.

Looking forward to understanding your cassette/BB/chainring setup to 'see' the whole package.

 

ive noticed in another of your posts.. you said youd likely switch to J5s studded when conditions call for it.. id wait till tehn before comitting something drastic in y our setup like a new rear hub... which would need a frame.... which needs... which needs...

i salute your idea on reducing the cassette itself to keep the range likely the same .. do you miss the in between gears?? or were they more... to even out the spread gears... i mean.. if its ratios you rarely used.. then.. no BIG loss.. but theres gotta be some situations when they would be handy i iamgine...

 

Awesome bike

In Switzerland we just got a lot of new snow, guess in Austria too?
Therefore.......more pics (please)

 

Where the hell is @Espen W ??

Espen, your move!!

 

@cmg you might recognize these mountains then, and the pic is from yesterday

Despite the cold and too much fresh snow, it's not bad 😍

 

@cmg you might recognize these mountains then, and the pic is from yesterday

View attachment 2070696

Despite the cold and too much fresh snow, it's not bad 😍

from that pic l have no idea 🤷‍♂️
best snow dump for a while at home (lm in Canton St Gallen), but lm down in Australia 🤦🏻‍♂️, my Fattie will be angry at me when l get back

 

@cmg - from the neighboring canton, riding straight towards St Gallen Basically, same conditions, +70-80 cm dump before the weekend.

Pic below is from last year, but it is now rideable thanks to the snow machine. Without the tracks, even the most fattest of the fat wheels don't help. I've tried going off-piste... briefly

 

What a great bike, I truly admire your dedication to get it built!

 

Time for another report after 5 weeks and 21 tours with 263 km & 15.700 meters total ascent (163 miles & 51500 ft in freedom units).

Riding conditions
A mix of everything: from deep, dry, fresh snow, to gradually consolidated ground, and all kinds of traffic (motorized and not), skiers, hikers, off-piste, on-piste, hardpack, and a few dry sections. Test with spikes due in the next week(s).

70+ cm of fresh snow. The wide trail was cleared with a snowblower just hours earlier.

Ever since the maiden voyage, these things stand out and continue to put a smile on my frozen face:

• Superior traction
• Enhanced straight-line stability
• Improved side grip on angled/off-camber terrain
• Modern, balanced geometry both for climbing and descending
• Extra rolling resistance and weight due to heavy rubber (Snowshoe 2XL)

The rolling chassis
I had high expectations, and this thing continues to deliver. I'm getting used visually to the imposing wheels, but not yet to the improved traction and float they offer. Compared to the 26 x 4.6 on 85 mm rims, there is a massive difference with Snowshoe 2XL on Nextie Drunken Rhinoceros 128 mm.

Lots of snow, hard to ride up even on groomed, fresh-soft sections. Switchgrade in the descending position.

Virtually all our riding in the Alps is long climbs and long descents, which means that the pressure will change a lot with altitude and temperature. Slowly, I've been dropping the pressure to about 0.3-0.8 PSI min (measured with 0-15 PSI Meiser Accu-Gage), but haven't gone all the way to 0 PSI because of those pressure fluctuations, and also to protect the rims when there's not enough snow yet.

Most of the time, pressure in the low single digits will still provide plenty of traction and stability compared to a narrower setup. As mentioned, I also need a baseline about how much float & traction difference there is compared to 2XL tires on 105 rims (one rim is incoming just to experiment with this).

Welcome To The Machine.
Switchgrade looks (too) aggressive, but on the steep climb it was just fine.

There have been quite a few sections of soft, fresh snow, or roughly groomed mashed potato snow that would've been impossible for me to ride on 4.6" tires, but was doable with this setup. It requires some balance and effort, often pushing is easier in terms of energy expenditure, but it's called fatbiking, right?

Another thing is straight-line stability, off-camber grip, and line correction. A noticeable improvement to my other setup. It will be super interesting to see how the 128 mm rims behave with Johnny 5" spikes on harder terrain. I've got a feeling that fat tires in general benefit from wide(r) rims (squarer profile, less sidewall squirming). Overall, I'm seeing mostly noticeable benefits with larger & wider setups, and only a few drawbacks (more below).

Grooed mashed potatoes that are incredibly hard or not possible to ride with my 4.6" setup due to lack of traction and float.
With the 2XL + 128 mm combo, this was doable with moderate-to-hard effort on the groomed part, and moderate-to-easy effort if staying in that narrow wheel track from @Espen W on his 3XL prototype

Geometry
Modern and close to perfection in what I'm looking for: steep seat tube for climbing, slack head angle for steep or fast descents, straight seat tube, and long reach. It works great with Mastodon 140 EXT, because the fork sits a few mm into travel, so I ditched the plans to lower the travel. For up & down riding style, the massive tire & suspension fork combo works very well.

Components
As mentioned, I'm extremely happy with the long 240 mm dropper + Switchgrade combo. Makes re-mounting and re-starting much easier, allows tons of drop, and the seat angle thingy is just indispensable for my undercarriage on all kinds of terrain. I was skeptical about 800 mm bars and planned to shorten them, but from the first ride, they surprisingly felt ... just right. So the other fatbike will receive the same treatment.

Plenty of snow for bikes, not yet enough for skis.

Brakes with 225/200 mm rotors: Bleedkit.com Gold oil for Ice Age temperatures solves the Shimano wandering bite-point problem. Works flawlessly. Same as the Cane Creek Visco headset, which is damped to the max, and ordered for other bikes.

The shifting experience is influenced by the truncated cassette (11-speed with 3 cogs removed) with a bit of a gap between the cogs. Better done than perfect (details above). Would still love an even lower gear than 24/50, as the balance thing is easier for me than the power output. The threaded BSA bottom bracket is by far my preferred choice. Easy to install and maintain, and silent.

Drawbacks
Of course, the bill for all this snow joy comes in the form of rolling resistance, extra rim weight, and heavy 2XL tires. For hardpack snow, firm ground, or any kind of fast rolling snow really, it's a bit of an overkill, and for such conditions, I'll pick a faster setup, preferably with spikes.

With lower (fresh snow) pressures, the self-steering on 2XL is noticeable. Gets better with higher pressures though. And for this widest setup, some tweaking of the drivetrain is necessary: it won't be a plug-and-play option in any case. The chain won't clear the 2XL + 128 mm rim with standard components on a standard setup. You need either a wider rear end+hub (217 mm), dropout offset, or a truncated cassette (as in my case).

To sum up, before properly trying it out, I was hoping this wouldn't be just an expensive experiment, especially with the new wheels without any real-world feedback. The gamble paid off big time and I'll be reaping the dividends for the whole winter and spring

Last, but not least, there's just something about a sleek titanium frame with surgically precise welds. Both visually and practically. Can't say how much of the riding quality is "felt" and how much is "perceived" by the material suppleness and vibration/absorption, but it rides very, very nicely. Was also quite impressed by their other model, an AM hardtail, that I've tried, it changed my mind a bit about hardtails for trails.

Onwards and upwards!

(Any guesses how this last pic was shot?)

 

Great update. And some great pics.

You're one of the few that 'gets it'.

Not everyone needs massive float -- but those that do, do.

 

Whoa, thanks Mike! 😍

In a way, I'm 'getting it' also due to your persistence with introducing these rims, and companies' willingness to take a bit of a risky frogleap (Nextie with the rims, Passila with the frame).

As you said, not everyone needs (or wants) the max. float, but there are conditions where there's no replacement for displacement.

 

Whoa, thanks Mike! 😍

In a way, I'm 'getting it' also due to your persistence with introducing these rims, and companies' willingness to take a bit of a risky frogleap (Nextie with the rims, Passila with the frame).

As you said, not everyone needs (or wants) the max. float, but there are conditions where there's no replacement for displacement.

At 125 #'s of rider, I really don't need more float but 5.05's are irresistible! They work wonders with silly low pressure and lotsa wrinkles. Worth it? Ya, sure, you betcha!!
They are just stupid fun to ride.

 

The 27.5s on 95s got me into a little trouble a few nights ago. It was soft soft and I was able to ride someone's "barely snowshoed tracks" which just got worse and worse and then, I was too far in. I luckily happened upon someone else's tracks. Amazing that I was able to ride over where they were walking/postholing in the snow with the giant tires, but I was basically committed to wherever they went/came out. Luckily it worked out, but I gotta remember that just because you can...doesn't mean you should.

 

Been there... Can you say, blind adventure?