Cane Creek Thudbuster seatpost smooths out the ride over the rock and root washboards for me... yea, not a dropper

 

There are some critical issues at play with hardtails that are really difficult to quantify on paper. The only way to figure it out is to ride the bikes in question.

Many XC hardtails can be really harsh bikes. Not just stiff, but they have a resonant frequency that can exhaust you. This can occur regardless of the material used. It has more to do with the construction, which is why it's hard to quantify and put on a spec sheet. Cheaper bikes often suffer from this, but also just any bike where the manufacturer didn't put enough energy into a good ride "feel" for the frame. There are some aluminum frames that ride pretty nice these days because the way the frame is built is more dialed.

Some steel or Ti bikes can be noodly, which isn't desirable, either. Too much flex can be pretty unpleasant.

How much suspension you have (and how well you're able to dial it in for yourself) will make a difference, too. With only 100mm of suspension, you don't have a whole lot to work with. With more travel, it has more of an opportunity to make a major difference in the ride. Adjustments that let you tune it well can put it at a whole other level of comfort and performance, too.

Tires also make a big difference. While suspension does the job for bigger hits, your tires do more of the work for smaller stuff. So everything associates with your tires is a factor here. Go too far to the "big tire" side and you'll start seeing a whole other set of drawbacks, though. I'm really liking the 2.5-2.6" range for my hardtail right now and I ride it on some pretty tough terrain.

I also don't hold stock that "carbon bars are more comfortable" either. Again, it all comes down to how they're made. I've had some good quality carbon bars that were REALLY stiff and actually hurt my hands when landing small drops. I specifically look for bars that advertise that they've got some flex or comfort features. Currently on aluminum Spank Vibrocores with a 31.8mm clamp diameter (bigger diameter means stiffer). It's true that SOME carbon bars can be more comfortable, but they've gotta be made to be comfortable. Not just any carbon bar will do it.

I don't hold that a suspension seatpost is the right solution, either. If you're riding a hardtail over tech like that, you should be hovering your butt above the saddle instead of planting it and relying on a squishy seatpost to do the work for you. If you want to sit down and pedal through technical terrain, that's what a full suspension is for.

I don't have any solid answers because a lot is just going to depend on what you like.

 

Thanks, this is all good info.

 

Demo a short travel FS.

 

Something in the 130 front/120 rear range? I have been eying the Marin Rift Zone and Santa Cruz Tallboy if I were to go in that direction.

 

+ tires at low pressure.

 

This.

 

This definitely isn't for everybody, but check out this NSMB piece:

https://nsmb.com/articles/personal-rides-andrews-custom-waltworks-v2/

FWIW, he rides this thing fully rigid at the Shore. One of the keys is Cushcore with 2.8 tires.

Buddy of mine in Bellingham has been riding his Chromag Rootdown everywhere lately and claims that his cushcore fundamentally changed his opinion of the bike...

 

29” wheels smooth out the ride noticeably compared to smaller wheels. So there’s that.

Next, run a 2.5 or bigger in the back either with a thick casing or an insert. I currently have a Maxxis Aggressor with the double down casing on the back of my Honzo, without an insert. I run it at about 22 psi and can slam into roots and rocks pretty hard without any issues. Running it down at 20-22 psi really helps take the edge off. With an insert you could go even lower and maybe offset the weight with a slightly lighter casing. I’m not the biggest fan of the plus tires or large volume, but thin casing 2.6” tires like the Maxxis Rekon. I have one of those up front right now because I’ve been doing more XC lately, but my slightly smaller Minion DHF 2.5 is way more confidence inspiring, and barely rolls any slower.

One often overlooked component on hardtails is the brakes. If you’re going to ride it aggressively in technical terrain, then having the best brakes you can get is going to ensure you can stay OFF the brakes as much as possible, which means you’ll have a smoother ride. I use 4-piston Zees and a 203mm rotor up front and a 180 in back. I intend to put a 203 in back eventually.

Finally, make sure you’ve got 120-140mm of *quality* travel up front. 100mm ain’t enough, regardless of quality. 120 can be, as long as it’s a good fork and you’ve got a fairly slack HA with it.

Other than that, you should NEVER be sitting down when descending and stand up more when you climb. I only sit down and pedal when it’s smooth.

 

If you want to get deep into hardtails, you can start by watching hardtailparty's youtube channel. He covers a lot of different frames of all materials. He is pretty informative and willing to to be clear on what works and what doesn't. And his trail in Arizona are always fun to watch him ride.

No to sleight Undescended, but a dropper is going to be better than a thudbuster because they free up you legs to be you suspension on the fun stuff while riding a hardtail.

 

Way ahead of you on this one. I came across his channel shortly after starting this thread and have already learned a lot. It seems like all things being equal a chromoly frame will be more supple than an aluminum frame however there are both stiff and supple frames for each. I know he mentions the MiddleChild not being the supplest chromoly frame but I'd assume it's still more supple than a lot of aluminum frames. If I stuck with aluminum I'd definitely want to find a more supple frame. I know he mentions the Orbea Laufy, Kona Honzo, and Specialized Fuse as stiffer frames but the Salsa Timberjack and Santa Cruz Chameleon as more supple, albeit with less aggressive geometry. Those were all bikes I was looking at so I was interested in getting some additional opinions on them. I was also curious if anyone has any feedback on the suppleness of the Nukeproof Scout or Rocky Mountain Growler.

The other big take away from the Hardtail Party is that he really seems to prefer the 27.5+ tire over a 29 x 2.6 or 2.5. I think my preference would be to remain with a 29 wheel. I'm curious how much extra cushion the 27.5 x 2.8 would really give over a 29 x 2.6 run on an appropriately wide rim. I'd imagine a 29 x 2.6 on a 35id rim would be substantially softer than my current 2.35/2.25 setup on a 23id rim.

 

So I love hard tails. Going to give you some advice that maybe wasn't hit upon... First - smoothest ride will be big volume 29er wheels. I'd try source a known compliant steel frame. Interestingly, this is almost polar opposite of what I ride... the biggest impact is how you ride it so know that going in.

A few subtle things that add to the ride:

Grips - your contact points matter quite a bit
Carbon bars (31.8) - specific models that are known to have flex or damping
Flat pedals with gummy compliant soles vs. hard soled clips
Aluminum rims chosen to have flex, maybe laced to have slightly lower spoke tension
A fork that is tuned or chosen to be fairly active and travel to match - going for supple, easy initial break-away on chatter and the like
I also think that slightly longer stays help in the compliance feel

FWIW I currently ride a 27.5 2.6 chromoly frame with burly tubing and al bars (vibrocore) - it's a whip but not compliant.

Edit to add: a goal like this isn't going to be just one or two items, it will be the sum of a bunch of small things. micro-changes and progressions that eventually will add up. also - if you are into this aesthetic that's cool, I get it that's where I'm at too - but the best HT will never result in a "smoother" ride than a short travel FS.

 

So I love hard tails. Going to give you some advice that maybe wasn't hit upon... First - smoothest ride will be big volume 29er wheels. I'd try source a known compliant steel frame. Interestingly, this is almost polar opposite of what I ride... the biggest impact is how you ride it so know that going in.

A few subtle things that add to the ride:

Grips - your contact points matter quite a bit
Carbon bars (31.8) - specific models that are known to have flex or damping
Flat pedals with gummy compliant soles vs. hard soled clips
Aluminum rims chosen to have flex, maybe laced to have slightly lower spoke tension
A fork that is tuned or chosen to be fairly active and travel to match - going for subtle, easy initial break-away on chatter and the like
I also think that slightly longer stays help in the compliance feel

FWIW I currently ride a 27.5 2.6 chromoly frame with burly tubing and al bars (vibrocore) - it's a whip but not compliant.

Any recommendations on compliant steel frames? I was initially interested in the MiddleChild as I love the geo, but Hardtail Party said it wasn't the most supple frame. Any modern geo steel frames out there that are a little more supple?

 

Just throwing this out there, I rode Captain Ahab in Moab this year on my 29" Honzo --2.6 Maxxis Rekon up front, Ardent Race 2.35 in the back (that tire wasn't quite up to the task, however). Some people would say it's a pretty gnarly trail.

I rode absolutely every feature and didn't get beat up too bad. It was a very enjoyable ride, in fact. I wasn't riding to set any speed records, but I wasn't slow either. The next day I went back on my enduro bike with a friend, and I don't think we went any faster (he's not as fast as me). It wasn't necessarily more fun either.

 

To take on the suppleness question, I find my 2016 Honzo to be pretty supple. I swapped everything over from a 2013 and noticed the difference in complience just riding. It was weird I thought my rear tire was low. I know Steve didn't think the Honzo was as supple as his Paradox or Middlechild Ti, which is most likely true. To me, the Honzo is compliant even with its yoke, but I have 40 lbs on him. The shaping of the 2015 and onward rear center tubing is drastically different from 2012-2014.

As everyone else has said complianance is subjective. You don't want a noodle though, because riding a flexy hardtail is more work for you and saps your energy faster. I think once I am ready to replace my Honzo, it will be either a Stylus or Middlechild.

 

As Harold pointed out, materials are less important than design & engineering. A good frame designer should have put some thought into how the bike is intended to be used. The steel Middlechild is not a supple bike, though I wouldn't quite call it harsh either. It's designed to get rowdy and it is an absolute riot to ride.

As others have mentioned, good technique is as big a factor as the bike itself. A lot depends on what sort of experience you are after.

One bike that has caught my eye recently is the new steel version of the Sonder Signal. Looking at the geometry, it won't be as rowdy as the Middlechild, but probably more well-rounded. The folks at Sonder said the designer Neil, spent a lot of time working on getting a compliant-yet-resonsive ride. Might be worth a look...

 

I ride a Kingdom Vendetta HT and in many ways, its all the bike I could ever need...its a lot of fun, very capable and all-round with perfect geometry and Ti really is the perfect material for a HT...to make a HT ride more smooth starts with you trying to be as relaxed and smooth without grabbing the bars too tight and relax your legs, arms and grip...
However, Rimpact tyre inserts allowed me to run much lower tyre pressures and that made the ride considerably smoother, not only due to the "cushioning" but also the dampening they provide.

 

Rimpact!


Rimpact is the best thing I have done on my bikes!

 

Here's a YT channel with current reviews of hardtails. Should give you a better range of info.
https://www.youtube.com/c/hardtailparty/videos
Putting together a compliant ht is a process. Even the midsoles of your shoes can matter.
These bars are back in stock.
https://www.oneupcomponents.com/products/carbon-bar

 

For me it starts with a good steel frame. Nothing rides like a good quality steel frame, except Ti, sometimes. Aluminum doesn't ride like steel unless you're comparing two horribly overbuilt frames to one an other that both ride like ****.

Other key ingredients are high volume rims and tires at low pressure. Compliant carbon handlebars, and a long dropper.

That's the bulk of what you can do to make any hardtail ride as well as possible.

 

Lots of good suggestions here but I'll add that I put a coil fork (Marz. Z1) on my Chromag and it certainly makes the ride smoother and makes the front end more planted over rougher trails.

 

My $0.02

I ride a Nukeproof Scout 290 HT.

Some say it's harsh.

Couldn't confirm our deny such claims as it's the only 'real' HT mountain bike I've owned.

Use to own Diamond Back Sorrento and a KHS Winslow, but do not consider these to be real mountain bikes.

Re, the Scout 290, it's more engaging than my FS rigs.

To help smooth things out, speed and line choice are important. Momentum is your friend.

Re, bike setup - good sized rubber 2.5 and over certainly helps soak up smaller trail chatter.

A good sturdy fork 140mm plus travel. Pike or better for peace of mind.

A dropper post, particularly if you like to ride gnarly trails. Your natural suspension i.e. legs and arms play a bigger role on HT's.

You don't want to be seated on an aggressive HT whilst riding aggressive terrain.

Contact points next... Good grips, comfortable saddle & flat pedals w/ good shoes.

All of these can help get a smoother ride.

Sent from my HD1900 using Tapatalk

 

My $0.02

I ride a Nukeproof Scout 290 HT.

Some say it's harsh.

Couldn't confirm our deny such claims as it's the only 'real' HT mountain bike I've owned.

Use to own Diamond Back Sorrento and a KHS Winslow, but do not consider these to be real mountain bikes.

Re, the Scout 290, it's more engaging than my FS rigs.

To help smooth things out, speed and line choice are important. Momentum is your friend.

Re, bike setup - good sized rubber 2.5 and over certainly helps soak up smaller trail chatter.

A good sturdy fork 140mm plus travel. Pike or better for peace of mind.

A dropper post, particularly if you like to ride gnarly trails. Your natural suspension i.e. legs and arms play a bigger role on HT's.

You don't want to be seated on an aggressive HT whilst riding aggressive terrain.

Contact points next... Good grips, comfortable saddle & flat pedals w/ good shoes.

All of these can help get a smoother ride.

Sent from my HD1900 using Tapatalk

The Scout was a bike I was seriously considering if I went aluminum. It gets pretty favourable reviews and is substantially cheaper than the Banshee Paradox. The one thing that has me concerned is the low BB drop. Do you find you get a lot of pedal strikes? What type of terrain are you mostly riding?

 

All else equal, a wheelset built with Berd spokes is substantially more compliant than with any other spokes.

 

Berd spokes



Interesting, I've been a traditional steel WS spoke or DT Swiss spoke consumer. never bought the Ti spokes but have friends that do.
Bern spokes do seem like an additional challenge to build, true or re-dish though.
Have you been building wheels with them?

 

I'm currently on a bmx kick, and one is STIFF aluminum race bike. Yeah, you can feel a difference between a nice chromoly frame and a harsh aluminum one, but they're still both ultimately harsh and unpleasant. My XC 29" hardtail has more fatiguing buzz than a steel playful bike, but same thing. I still feel beat up if its rough.

If you're looking for true huge differences, I don't believe it exists. All hardtails beat you up. If you hit a 2 root on ANY hardtail, your body is absorbing 2 inches worth of hit, period. You can change the frequency of the buzz, but not the intensity. You're taking the entire hit, minus the millimeters of flex from the bike/tires. On a FS bike you can plow that seated and not feel it, its eaten by the suspension.

I like maintaining my full suspension bikes. For me, its not a chore or a downside at all. every few years they get bearings, every few months I'll do a minor shock service. It never actually prevents me from riding or interrupts trail time. I wouldn't let maintenance steer your decision too much.

 

Everyone's points above are correct. My summary (echoing most of what folks have said already):

- Test ride each bike (a bike is a sum it it's parts, not just the frame; there are better and worse for each frame material type)
- Bigger tires definitely help with taking some edge off
- Carbon bars definitely help with your hand/arms
- Consider your saddle (a cushier more supportive saddle is going feel better than a bare minimum XC race saddle
- Longer chain stay will soften the harshness a bit
- Condition yourself to primarily be out of saddle when riding
- A good plush, yet supportive fork up front so it's taking care of business up front and letting you party and dance behind

 

Didn't read the whole thread but you can now have your cake and eat it too, at least where the dropper post is concerned:

https://www.pnwcomponents.com/products/coast-suspension-dropper-post-external?variant=28488424587341

120MM dropper w/ 40mm suspension travel. I know if I was riding a hardtail I'd have one.

Also 29"x2.6" w/ cushcore.

As others have said, check out Hardtail Party on youtube.

-DS

 

I've been playing around with tire setup and inserts on my hardtail lately to try and make is ride less harshly. I had been running Rimpacts (light inserts) and recently thought instead of running two light inserts front and rear maybe it would make more sense just to run one heavier insert (Cushcore Pro) in the rear to smooth out the rear. I already had a CC Pro insert laying around from previously running it on my enduro bike. I figured the improvement in ride quality and damping should be most noticeable on hardtail. I was a bit surprised how little of difference it made. I could tell it muted the high frequency stuff (like gravel and <1/2" roots,etc) but on everything else (bigger, roots, rocks, landings, etc) it made an insignificant difference. I guess the issue is that tires just don't have much 'travel'.

Running cushcore actually made a more noticeable difference on my enduro bike. I guess because the enduro bike already did a good job of smoothing out bigger bumps that the reduction in higher frequency stuff was more noticeable.

 

I've been playing around with tire setup and inserts on my hardtail lately to try and make is ride less harshly. I had been running Rimpacts (light inserts) and recently thought instead of running two light inserts front and rear maybe it would make more sense just to run one heavier insert (Cushcore Pro) in the rear to smooth out the rear. I already had a CC Pro insert laying around from previously running it on my enduro bike. I figured the improvement in ride quality and damping should be most noticeable on hardtail. I was a bit surprised how little of difference it made. I could tell it muted the high frequency stuff (like gravel and <1/2" roots,etc) but on everything else (bigger, roots, rocks, landings, etc) it made an insignificant difference. I guess the issue is that tires just don't have much 'travel'.

Running cushcore actually made a more noticeable difference on my enduro bike. I guess because the enduro bike already did a good job of smoothing out bigger bumps that the reduction in higher frequency stuff was more noticeable.

I'm surprised to hear this. I was running Cushcore XC on my Canfield EPO F/R and just switched to Cushcore Pro on the rear and I noticed a significant difference. I lowered tire pressure from 24 to 21 psi on a 2.4 XR4 with i30 rims and it feels like the bike has a much more plush or muted feel over roots, rocks, and small chatter. I'm less worried about pinch flats with the rigid rear end and low pressures and haven't noticed a difference in weight. Its become the perfect light trail bike and I wouldn't change a thing for our mostly smooth trails in Bend. I'd recommend anyone on the fence about getting rid of their hardtail for a full squish to try Cushcore Pro. Of course, I've got an enduro bike for trails that warrant it so that could make my situation different.

Also, I had a GG Pedalhead before the Canfield EPO and can confidently say the ride of the Canfield is more forgiving than the GG. I hope they make an updated version of the bike now that they're producing bikes again. It's super light and has good geo for its time. Almost modern now.

 

you want hardtail to ride smooth ?

hit the gym

 

The Cushcore does take the edge off chatter but when going over larger bumps I still think the wheel gets displaced just as much. Maybe the initial impact is dulled but overall the back of the bike is moving around like 98% of what it was before the insert.

 

I would go with the full suspension. Of all the maintenance I've on my fs bikes over the past seven years, the rear linkages and shocks were a very small part of it.

 

I’m on a Cotic SolarisMax with a 2.6 XR2 and cushcore pro in the back. Most smooth hardtail I’ve ridden besides a buddy’s 27.5 x2.8 on 40iw rims. Neither is as smooth as any full suspension bike.

Hardtail Party has released a ton of new frame reviews recently. His reviews are pretty insightful.

 

I'm on a Cotic SolarisMax with a 2.6 XR2 and cushcore pro in the back. Most smooth hardtail I've ridden besides a buddy's 27.5 x2.8 on 40iw rims. Neither is as smooth as any full suspension bike.

Hardtail Party has released a ton of new frame reviews recently. His reviews are pretty insightful.

I've definitely been eyeing the Solaris Max, Nimble 9, and Paradox after watching his reviews. All of them seem like they'd be a great starting point.