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Trying to understand what you guys are talking about "BB drop". Newbie question. Are you talking about the smaller distance from the wheel axel to the crank ? Thank you. ( that's not my bike )

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BB is used because a change in tires alone can change BB height by 15mm easily but BB drop is built in to the frame and is unaffected by tire sizing.

Assuming you are comparing the same wheel size, BB drop is going to be the best predictor of overall BB height while riding with your preferred tires, compared to other bikes of the same travel.
 
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How useful are RAD and that Front:Rear ratio you got in that spreadsheet, ocnLogan?

I felt that RAD was a way to sell those RipRow machines, ensuring that trained range of motion works on a bike. I habitually upsize since I almost always find that larges feel naturally easier at carrying higher speed through corners and in the air than size mediums and smalls (very few exceptions, like SB150 and 2018 Jekyll 27.5 in med). I never have ridden a small that I liked better; smalls seem to lock me into slower-speed riding, sessioning, and stunt stuff as opposed to the kind of mtb exploratory trail sampling experience I wanted. Lee and Alex seem to have gone quiet after that Revel bikes experiment, where they chose size smalls... yikes.

I saw that F:R ratio thing in a vorsprung video, but found that it didn't correlate well with actual measured weight distro, using a scale under each wheel and doing a ratio on the weight readings. It'd work as a comparison between bikes with very similar wheelbase, but then it'd be just easier to just do what I currently do: find the magic CS-WB combos that correlate with real world weight distro measurements.

I credit the weight distro balance for the magic, where I can ride gnarly stuff with far less work besides simply carrying speed. My natural standing pedaling position is in the right place for this stuff. For 90+% of normal stuff, there's no need to move/hold my body forward to weight the front for blazing a corner super fast, nor any need to move/hold my body rearward to unweight the front to prevent an OTB or weight the rear to climb out-of-the-saddle. Only need to shift weight for actual techniques.

Just saying, they both stink of even more oversimplification. I'd rather have the original numbers, which you have, and am struggling to find any use for those composites. Something with longer wheelbase will naturally have a bigger F:R ratio, but it doesn't mean that since a 1.83 ratio works well for a 1230mm WB 29er that it should also work for a 1150mm WB bike, 1300mm WB bike, nor even a 1230mm WB 27.5 bike. From my set of measurements, I find that heavier riders want even lower ratios than lightweights. I also find that smaller wheeled bikes do better with higher ratios.

I feel that the perceived benefits of mullet have a lot to do with BB drop. People have mentioned a feeling that a well designed mullet can corner like a centrifuge. Check out the old Foes Mixer reviews. People think it has to do with the traits of different wheel sizes. They're not wrong, but I'd technically credit the BB drop. I bet that you can get a 29er to feel more like a 27.5 if the BB drop was reduced to a similar level.

The other mullet difference is how the BB drop to front axle is more the BB drop to the rear axle. I feel this synergizes with my preferred riding style of heavy-feet and light-hands. The front will be more stable, to require less from me to hold the front, but the agile rear will be more responsive to movements that originate from my hips/core. A well-designed mullet wouldn't be a conversion, but one that tunes the rear kinematics to work with this trait, to maintain a balanced suspension feel.

Sorry for the ramble, but I prefer a bigger picture discussion, touching on the many things that you have to juggle to create a well-rounded bike.
 
How useful are RAD and that Front:Rear ratio you got in that spreadsheet, ocnLogan?

I felt that RAD was a way to sell those RipRow machines, ensuring that trained range of motion works on a bike. I habitually upsize since I almost always find that larges feel naturally easier at carrying higher speed through corners and in the air than size mediums and smalls (very few exceptions, like SB150 and 2018 Jekyll 27.5 in med). I never have ridden a small that I liked better; smalls seem to lock me into slower-speed riding, sessioning, and stunt stuff as opposed to the kind of mtb exploratory trail sampling experience I wanted. Lee and Alex seem to have gone quiet after that Revel bikes experiment, where they chose sizes smalls... yikes.

I saw that F:R ratio thing in a vorsprung video, but found that it didn't correlate well with actual measured weight distro, using a scale under each wheel and doing a ratio on the weight readings. It'd work as a comparison between bikes with very similar wheelbase, but then it'd be just easier to just do what I currently do: find the magic CS-WB combos that correlate with real world weight distro measurements.

Just saying, they both stink of even more oversimplification. I'd rather have the original numbers, which you have, and am struggling to find any use for those composites. Something with longer wheelbase will naturally have a bigger F:R ratio, but it doesn't mean that since a 1.83 ratio works well for a 1230mm WB 29er that it should also work for a 1150mm WB bike, 1300mm WB bike, nor even a 1230mm WB 27.5 bike. From my set of measurements, I find that heavier riders want even lower ratios than lightweights.
The short answers are "I found them very useful trying to buy a bike during covid that I couldn't sit on or demo" and "its a work in progress".

The slightly longer answer is that after 3 years of thinking "I kind of feel like my bike is too small for me", I came across the RAD videos. And after doing some testing, I found that my bike then was almost a full inch too small for me, which explained my discomfort in longer trails (I was getting the rounded/hunched back feeling on longer downhill segments, like the feeling of wishing I could just fully stand up). So RAD (and the trig to figure out how a bike would fit me in my spreadsheet), was super useful. My Banshees frame is 17mm larger than my Kona, and that plus stem length + bar in my calc, puts me about an inch larger. And it is definitely more comfortable.

Also, my Kona had a WB of 1222mm, and a F/R ratio of 1.88. The Titan has a WB of ~1268mm, and a F/R ratio of ~1.8. And the Titan definitely has more weight on the front, even with a 1.5 degree slacker HTA than the Kona. It also had more front grip than the size L Transition Sentinel I got to ride (WB of 1263mm, F/R ratio of 1.87). Beyond that I don't have much data. So you're right, I have no idea if the 1.8 ratio is something I'd desire on a much smaller WB bike. Small devils advocate moment though... I don't think I'll be riding anything with dramatically smaller wheelbases anytime soon. Even the XC bikes now have wheelbases about as long or longer than my Kona (Trek Top Fuel L is 1215mm, and Rocky Mountain Element XL is 1263mm).

Its also been useful to see how I could fit a L, or XL of almost any brand, by fiddling with the cockpit enough.

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I really wish I had a magical set of all the bikes I was interested in, in both L and XL, available to ride on my local trails, where I didn't get fatigued, and could just get some really great data on what I actually prefer. But since that isn't an option for me as a non-bike reviewer/sponsored athlete/billionair, for this last bike I went with a size large.

So to return to your question again. After riding it for a year, I think my next one will be a smidge larger (either a larger L, or an XL). And I don't feel like adding ~40mm of wheelbase made riding my trails any harder.

I did the scale thing with the Kona (in a response to you actually IIRC). I should drag the scale out to the garage and test the Banshee sometime just to see how different it is in comparison.
 
Spot Mayhem = 343
Pivot Trail 429 = 347
Intense Primer = 346

Those numbers are across the board for all sizes.

Can't say I've ever seen 360.
 
You've posted this question twice without context. Please elaborate. What are you trying to achieve? What kind of bike?
Static BB height is also not super helpful to consider, as it can lead to incorrect conclusions about BB height due to suspension travel differences.

For instance a 170mm travel bike with ride about ~51mm lower than its listed static BB height if at 30% sag (which is pretty common). But a 120mm travel bike will only ride 36mm lower at the same sag.

Which means that the 170mm travel bike could have a higher static BB height value, but actually ride lower.
 
Static BB height is also not super helpful to consider, as it can lead to incorrect conclusions about BB height due to suspension travel differences.

For instance a 170mm travel bike with ride about ~51mm lower than its listed static BB height if at 30% sag (which is pretty common). But a 120mm travel bike will only ride 36mm lower at the same sag.

Which means that the 170mm travel bike could have a higher static BB height value, but actually ride lower.
I think this was OPs whole point. Trying to triangulate on what might be a good sagged BB height factoring tires and all the other variables and start points (unsagged BB, etc).
 
I think most people that ask this question are trying to achieve less chance of pedal strikes.
🤷‍♂️ Maybe? But these days we're damned if we assume that's the case, and damned if we don't.
 
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You've posted this question twice without context. Please elaborate. What are you trying to achieve? What kind of bike?

Some downhill and freeride bikes have BBs that high, but that's probably before sag.

There's also this:
I want to find a MTB frame similar to my last one was Liteville 301 XXL with bb height of 357mm .

So i'm looking for a 140mm travel trail bike with High bb.. I prefer at least 360mm bb height

Geometry Geeks

Sadly, Geometry geeks dont have "sort by bb height or bb drop" feature, and they refuse to add it citing some BS reasons
 
I want to find a MTB frame similar to my last one was Liteville 301 XXL with bb height of 357mm .

So i'm looking for a 140mm travel trail bike with High bb.. I prefer at least 360mm bb height

Geometry Geeks

Sadly, Geometry geeks dont have "sort by bb height or bb drop" feature, and they refuse to add it citing some BS reasons
Just contact Waltworks or Quiring and get you some bike geometry that actually fits you!!
 
I'll admit I find this thread a little frustrating. Not enough dudes are listing their preferred bb drop. Instead they prefer to rant on about how there's lots of variable, admit that bbs on certain bikes are too low but then never list their own preferences, therefore not contributing to the data set.

How about you guys that dont like using bb drop as a measurement, list your bb height instead. bike, wheel size tire used and travel.

I ca
So i'm looking for a 140mm travel trail bike with High bb.. I prefer at least 360mm bb height
53x11, did you ever find this 140mm travel trail bike with a 360mm bb height?
 
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Here's the geometry for the bike in question. this is a medium, but I would not expect BB drop/height to change much across sizes. 350mm static BB height, is that unsagged? 10mm drop. I'm not familiar enough with bikes in this category to know if that's particularly high, but it sounds high to me.
 
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