[Tama John]

ad hominem arrogant disdainful condescension

oh wait, thought this was the band name thread

 

[BmanInTheD]

TIL double track and fire roads are the same thing. Ok hoss, you sound very legit. Come on down and visit and I'll give you an education on trail construction and management. This stuff isn't hard if you can tie your own shoes; have someone get you sorted before you leave.

Alright smarty pants, what’s the practical difference between “wide open doubletrack” and a fire road in terms of this discussion besides some grass in the middle? Since your arguments have no merit you resorted to pomposity and condescension. Perfect. But at least my bike still sucks.

 

[ocnLogan]

what’s the practical difference between “wide open doubletrack” and a fire road in terms of this discussion besides some grass in the middle?

No idea what it looks like elsewhere, but I'd say the main difference is about 5-15ft in width at least on everything around here.

Doubletrack around here fits two people side by side walking easily, and riding usually works pretty well if its been brushed pretty recently, otherwise you might have to return to single file riding every so often. Basically think ATV/SxS width, or thereabouts.

Fire Road feels like it could fit a firetruck. Or at least one fullsize truck without hitting brush on the sides. In some places its nearly residential road width, so you could get opposing traffic to pass pretty easily.

 

[Carl Mega]

Alright smarty pants, what’s the practical difference between “wide open doubletrack” and a fire road in terms of this discussion besides some grass in the middle? Since your arguments have no merit you resorted to pomposity and condescension. Perfect. But at least my bike still sucks.

Words. They mean things. Fire roads are, by definition, unpaved roads. Original meaning was to be large enough for vehicles to combat fire issues.

Double track or two track is entirely different. A trail. The OPs 5ft trail is likely a good example.

They are materially different in terms of users, access, construction and management. Further, most "double track" new construction where you need to build a bench is basically 4ft+ of tread (or the length of a mcleod from cut slope to down slope). So this type of new construction is common place in trail systems across the country - probably the majority of new trails built for multi-use. It is many people's trail experience - especially on density areas/trail systems.

So, when speaking about why that may be relevant in the discussion about eBikes and using the normal terms - it's because no one GAF about fire roads where - you'd expect faster than human traffic and there's a sh1t ton of room. On a double track, where multi-use groups interact - welp, being able to power past pedestrian paced users at boost power is something a manager would want to consider when assessing the viability of eBike inclusion...amongst other things.

One thing you'll notice with the eBike advocate crowd is they routinely take liberties or omissions with language to justify their position. AKA lie. Militantly down playing any aspect that might be viewed negatively.

"It's doesn't have a motor, it's 'assist'" (reality: it does)

"You can only reach that speed/boost on fireroads!" (reality: double track and a variety of other trail settings)

"Only has 250 watts same as a person" (reality: 250 more watts and then boost for max)

"Top speed has a mandatory cut off" (reality: all sorts of dongles and hacks to overcome this)

"People go fast down hill and athletes already go this fast" (reality: extra fast eBikes ain't helping and just because a few elites can do that, doesn't have **** to do when EVERYONE can do it)

The point of the OP was that we've heard all of it before - and it was a plea to say: 'just own it'. It's ok to be honest.

 

[Klurejr]

No idea what it looks like elsewhere, but I'd say the main difference is about 5-15ft in width at least on everything around here.

Doubletrack around here fits two people side by side walking easily, and riding usually works pretty well if its been brushed pretty recently, otherwise you might have to return to single file riding every so often. Basically think ATV/SxS width, or thereabouts.

Fire Road feels like it could fit a firetruck. Or at least one fullsize truck without hitting brush on the sides. In some places its nearly residential road width, so you could get opposing traffic to pass pretty easily.

This is a good way to define the 2. I will grab a picture of it next time I am on that trail.

 

[alexbn921]

I love my ebike.

 

[Gutch]

Holy chit, are y’all still arguing about nothing? Let it go Phil, let it go.

 

[Fuse6F]

thanks to the op for showing how he rides twice as fast thanks to having double the power output!

great post.



i guess if you can do x amount of work in half the time, then you must be producing twice as much power. so maybe if you slow down and do x amount of work in the same amount of time you probably got half the workout!


like the mask vs anti mask people. the only real problem w being either one is that there is someone who is one of the other ones. too bad we werent all the same, then there wouldnt be any problems. or would we just all have the same problems!

 

[_CJ]

Two track, double track, etc. is almost always created by four wheel vehicles with a motor. ATV, Jeep, SxS, etc. How fast a one hp bicycle goes on that road or trail should be of little concern to anyone.


.

 

[291748]

like the mask vs anti mask people. the only real problem w being either one is that there is someone who is one of the other ones.

Actually, only one "side" remotely gives a damn about what the other does.

 

[J.B. Weld]

Actually, only one "side" remotely gives a damn about what the other does.

Ahem... bs.

 

[Fuse6F]

Actually, only one "side" remotely gives a damn about what the other does.

Lol. Perfect example

 

[291748]

Ahem... bs.

Sorry, but there is no one out there trying to force other people NOT to wear masks if they want. No one.

It's a crappy attempt at an example.
And the bogeyman is not real.

🤓

 

[BmanInTheD]

Words. They mean things. Fire roads are, by definition, unpaved roads. Original meaning was to be large enough for vehicles to combat fire issues.

Double track or two track is entirely different. A trail. The OPs 5ft trail is likely a good example.

They are materially different in terms of users, access, construction and management. Further, most "double track" new construction where you need to build a bench is basically 4ft+ of tread (or the length of a mcleod from cut slope to down slope). So this type of new construction is common place in trail systems across the country - probably the majority of new trails built for multi-use. It is many people's trail experience - especially on density areas/trail systems.

So, when speaking about why that may be relevant in the discussion about eBikes and using the normal terms - it's because no one GAF about fire roads where - you'd expect faster than human traffic and there's a sh1t ton of room. On a double track, where multi-use groups interact - welp, being able to power past pedestrian paced users at boost power is something a manager would want to consider when assessing the viability of eBike inclusion...amongst other things.

One thing you'll notice with the eBike advocate crowd is they routinely take liberties or omissions with language to justify their position. AKA lie. Militantly down playing any aspect that might be viewed negatively.

"It's doesn't have a motor, it's 'assist'" (reality: it does)

"You can only reach that speed/boost on fireroads!" (reality: double track and a variety of other trail settings)

"Only has 250 watts same as a person" (reality: 250 more watts and then boost for max)

"Top speed has a mandatory cut off" (reality: all sorts of dongles and hacks to overcome this)

"People go fast down hill and athletes already go this fast" (reality: extra fast eBikes ain't helping and just because a few elites can do that, doesn't have **** to do when EVERYONE can do it)

The point of the OP was that we've heard all of it before - and it was a plea to say: 'just own it'. It's ok to be honest.

You're damn right that words mean things. Like the word "doubletrack" literally means 2 tracks. Usually made by or for some type of 4-wheeled motorized vehicle. And when the OP says "wide open doubletrack", I seriously doubt he's talking about 4-ft wide bench cut. Again, how is someone going up "wide open doubletrack" at 13mph more of a danger or nuisance to hikers or other trail users than riders on regular bikes going that fast on flat SINGLETRACK and even much faster on DOWNHILL singletrack?

When you call someone a liar, it just kinda makes my hair stand on end. Nobody said they don't have a motor, nobody said you can't go faster on one, etc. Their context you may not agree with, but none/most of that is untrue. Most of the e-bike advocates I know and read are mostly sick and tired of all the BS generalizations made about them and when they're labeled as "lazy assholes", then yes, they might get a bit militant in their own defense.

 

[Klurejr]

You're damn right that words mean things. Like the word "doubletrack" literally means 2 tracks. Usually made by or for some type of 4-wheeled motorized vehicle. And when the OP says "wide open doubletrack", I seriously doubt he's talking about 4-ft wide bench cut. Again, how is someone going up "wide open doubletrack" at 13mph more of a danger or nuisance to hikers or other trail users than riders on regular bikes going that fast on flat SINGLETRACK and even much faster on DOWNHILL singletrack?

When you call someone a liar, it just kinda makes my hair stand on end. Nobody said they don't have a motor, nobody said you can't go faster on one, etc. Their context you may not agree with, but none/most of that is untrue. Most of the e-bike advocates I know and read are mostly sick and tired of all the BS generalizations made about them and when they're labeled as "lazy assholes", then yes, they might get a bit militant in their own defense.

Really depends on if it is a multi directional multi use trail, how much traffic is on it and how good the sightlines are.

I do not think we can stamp out rules that apply to every trail system. Needs to be case by case.

But I do feel that 13mph fly by of a hiker is a really bad thing. And that does not matter if it is a motor or not. We as responsible trail stewards should be forgetting about strava times when riding on a trail that we share with hikers, dog walkers, bird watchers, families and trail runners.

The trail system where I ride is very busy by the lake since there is a 2.5 mile loop around it and all the trailheads are right there. Once you get a mile south to the loop I rode in my OP there is much less traffic and mostly just cyclists and the more hardcore hikers and walkers. Further south is even less pedestrian traffic.

Even parts of my local trail system must be treated differently.

I did have an unpleasant experiance 2 years ago on one of the double tracks while climbing. My buddy and I were side by side, taking up the width of the trail, chatting and climbing. A rider on an eBike passed us in the bushes and never slowed down. That is the only time I have been passed by an Ebike out there and it was downright rude to do. Proper etiquette says he should have slowed and alerted us to his presence and we would have gladly made room. I dont care that he was on an eBike. I care that he just blasted by us and was widening trail while doing it.

 

[Fuse6F]

Sorry, but there is no one out there trying to force other people NOT to wear masks if they want. No one.

It's a crappy attempt at an example.
And the bogeyman is not real.

🤓

Dont see many people stealing bikes forcing regular joes to steal some too.

i do see people trying to stop people from stealing bikes though...

are you suggesting that bike thieves are being kind to us.

 

[Bacon Fat]

I did have an unpleasant experiance 2 years ago on one of the double tracks while climbing. My buddy and I were side by side, taking up the width of the trail, chatting and climbing. A rider on an eBike passed us in the bushes and never slowed down. That is the only time I have been passed by an Ebike out there and it was downright rude to do. Proper etiquette says he should have slowed and alerted us to his presence and we would have gladly made room. I dont care that he was on an eBike. I care that he just blasted by us and was widening trail while doing it.

I ride up behind people talking all the time, rarely do they have any idea someone is right behind them even after announcing your presence over and over. Once, I was ringing my bell and the person stop and looked up like it was Heaven calling them home

 

[_CJ]

I occasionally "blast by people", on my analog and digital bikes, after politely announcing my presence and being ignored, then yelling at them and being ignored....because they're wearing headphones/earbuds. **** those people. I sometimes have a similar experience with people spread across a trail talking to each other, who don't hear me the first time, but eventually figure it out. They're assholes too, for taking up the whole trail. Two track is the same. Just because you CAN ride side by side, doesn't mean you should, and doing so is rude to other trial users.

.

 

[BmanInTheD]

I occasionally "blast by people", on my analog and digital bikes, after politely announcing my presence and being ignored, then yelling at them and being ignored....because they're wearing headphones/earbuds. **** those people. I sometimes have a similar experience with people spread across a trail talking to each other, who don't hear me the first time, but eventually figure it out. They're assholes too, for taking up the whole trail. Two track is the same. Just because you CAN ride side by side, doesn't mean you should, and doing so is rude to other trial users.

.

It's no use, guys. We're lazy, inconsiderate assholes if we ride e-bikes, even if only occasionally. And even if the e-bike nazis do the same thing they accuse us of doing or show no etiquette whatsoever. They can spend a thousand words tying themselves in knots trying to differentiate fireroads from doubletrack but the bottom line is they don't really care about safety or anything else. They STILL haven't addressed the issue of riders passing hikers on regular bikes going much faster on flat or downhill trail than an uphill e-bike. They just don't like e-bikes or their riders. So f 'em. I'm done in this forum. It's like being in the DH forum and half the people there talk about how dangerous it is and shouldn't be allowed cuz someone might get hurt or scare another trail user. Cheers.

 

[Fuse6F]

I ride a bike cause its fun. If you have more fun on an e bike great. But neither have the right to have their fun interfere with someone elses fun. Be it hiker or biker.

we can never do everything right.

just err on the side of caution. Slow down, walk your bike, stop. Whatever.

Unfortunately that will interefere with your fun. If thats a problem for you then you shouldnt be out on the trails anyway.

act positive and be helpful. Good things will come your way.