[alexbn921]

I'm relatively ebike un-educated. But won't most class 1 ebikes do 250w average, with temporary max power being 550ish watts? The question then becomes how long can it do that higher than average power.

But as you said, I do think there is a fair bit of hyperbole thrown around. Ie, the whole "they passed me on a 20% climb, going like 20mph" is probably unrealistic unless the rider was Nino or someone like that. But as you said, 10-15mph seems pretty doable on an average climb for an average rider if they're using a boost mode.

And, as others have said, a lot of it is etiquette. I don't think that an experienced rider who waits to pass people in ways that make sense would bother anyone out on the trail.

This post mostly is about the fact that the machine is capable. And because it is capable, some people use it, and that "could" be an issue.

Brose motors put out 540 watts continuously with a current limit of 15 amps and a nominal voltage of 38v. If a ride puts out 160watts in boost it will max out and the total out will be 700 watts for 1 hour as the 500 battery is 15 amp hours. No human on Earth can go above 450ish for an hour.

SL motors are just over 200 watts continuous.

 

[Carl Mega]

We were at a tipping point for trail access in many areas, and the explosion of the sport in 2020 hastened that, on top of the fuel that was building with the new motorized user base that is searching for access.

You wrote a lot and we share some observations and opinion. I'm only going to lean into this^ because it is the setting we are faced with. I advocate for all sorts of motorized access and see potential for eMoto / eBike trails being available where ICE motors would be denied. There are many opportunities. But what I reject is a blanket position that says "eBikes are human power equivalent" and thus are afforded unrestricted access to same trails. Convenient for eBike enthusiasts? Sure, short term. In the interests of the broader mixed user groups? No. Workable policy for many US land managers? Not really.

So, instead trying to short cut it, I prefer to take stock of the realities of the situation. Some areas are under pressure, congestion, conflict and have tenuous grip on access as it is. Does it serve us to haphazardly introduce even faster machines that aid new, fresh users to reach rarified Olympian speeds? That's a hard to make argument. With that, for me, it's simple. Many, if not most, trails are suitable for eBike access - but not all. Thus discretion. Opt-in. So yeah, petition for access in good faith. There's plenty of appetite, there are plenty of existing trails which are perfectly viable. Work the process and expect to be treated like every other user groups because all of them had to do the same thing - build credibility and relationships.

 

[chazpat]

In fairness, poor trail etiquette frequently spans every demographic of trail users anywhere. People just generally suck. But you're on point about the noob on ebike. Frankly other cyclists ebike or not suck at trail etiquette as least as much as everyone else, and usually more. For every 10 friendly greetings i give, I get maybe 2 or 3 back, and for every 10 observances of trail etiquette I give, I'll be lucky to get one back. The worst offenders? Cyclists. Most are dix, and it pains me to say that, but it's true. The only cyclists that care about etiquette these days tend to be the older guys, and I'd be lying if I said I haven't been so fed up on some rides that I considered consciously just abandoning etiquette myself because it makes no difference if only one guy is doing it.

I've seen the same thing. I'm also a trail runner so I also see it from that perspective. On the trails I usually run, and sometimes ride, foot traffic has the right of way, unlike on most of the trails I ride where mtb has the right of way. But a lot of riders seem to forget this. I had one incident where I felt like the bike rider was trying to force me off my line, despite me giving him plenty of room to pass, just because he wanted the smoothest line. He finally changed his line at the last second, just as I started to flinch. Had a few other similar incidents where they passed a little closer than they should have because they wanted to stick to a particular line.

 

[Le Duke]

Brose motors put out 540 watts continuously with a current limit of 15 amps and a nominal voltage of 38v. If a ride puts out 160watts in boost it will max out and the total out will be 700 watts for 1 hour as the 500 battery is 15 amp hours. No human on Earth can go above 450ish for an hour.

SL motors are just over 200 watts continuous.

The problem here is the denominator. If you get a person putting out pretty minimal power and they happen to weigh quite a bit, the bike’s motor won’t put out much power in response AND they’ll have a low W/kg as a result.

Occasionally, if doing my best to take a ride on the Vomit Comet, I’ll catch a person on an e-Bike. Pretty rare but more likely on steeper climbs at higher altitude.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[alexbn921]

The problem here is the denominator. If you get a person putting out pretty minimal power and they happen to weigh quite a bit, the bike’s motor won’t put out much power in response AND they’ll have a low W/kg as a result.

Occasionally, if doing my best to take a ride on the Vomit Comet, I’ll catch a person on an e-Bike. Pretty rare but more likely on steeper climbs at higher altitude.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Anything over 130watts on a brose in boost will give you 100% motor power. Even fat old guys should be able to do that and in shuttle mode it's even less because it adds in cadence.

Depending on my mode I will run boost for an hour straight and average 250+ watts for 4500 feet. Or stretch it out for 2 hours with lower assistance.

Took over a month to change my effort level. If i'm going fast, I must try super hard. It's weird to be able to separate effort from speed.

 

[Nosdeho]

Over the years there has been a lot of back and forth arguing about just how fast a Class 1 eBike can go and whether or not they are twice as fast as pedal bikes.

I have ridden street based eBikes in the past and was blown away by how quick they are.

Yesterday I finally had the chance to take a Specialized Levo on a lap of a section of trail I have ridden dozens of times over the years on my pedal bike.
This is something I have wanted to do for a number of years now, and finally had the opportunity.

I did the loop first on my pedal bike. I was riding average speeds, not trying to break any records and was very winded and breathing heavily when I got back to the top of the climb. I might have been able to push myself a little bit harder, but that would not have changed the results much.

After a small break I took the Levo on the same loop.

The results are in, Class 1 Pedelec Bikes are super fast, more than twice as fast when climbing.

Please note - I am not saying this is a good or bad thing. I am not saying this can impact every single trail. This is simply a comment about the speed of eBikes. I have been a member on this site for nearly 2 decades now and have been moderating for at least 10 years and the common line from many eBikers is they are only slightly faster.... that is just not true. Can we stop denying it?

Here is the strava data to back my statements up:

Full Loop:
View attachment 1966035
So just over twice as fast for the full loop, this loop starts and ends at a high point, so the decent is roughly equal the climb in elevation. The decent is single track, the climb is a combo of single track and double track, but mostly double track.

Downhill only:
View attachment 1966036
I was not expecting any difference here, there is no reason the eBike should be faster on a decent that requires almost no pedaling.

There is no segment for the entire climb from the bottom to the top. I can probably create one if anyone cares to see that section. But if we just do some quick math;
Pedal Bike 11:06 total minus 1:55 for the down makes the entire climb 9:11
eBike 5:15 total minus 1:58 for the down makes the entire climb 3:17
So total Climb speed is 3x faster.

Climb - Long Section segment (Single track with one small down section)
View attachment 1966037
Right about double the speed for this segment of the climb

Climb - Short Section Segment
View attachment 1966038
This segment is double track, wide open with a few sweeping turns. It was at this point I realized I could up-shift the bike into a harder gear to go even faster with that motor doing all the work for me. 13mph vs 3.5mph - That is 4xfaster then when I pedal.

To show I was not sand bagging it, here are my averages on that section from last year:
View attachment 1966039

I am very much an average climber, a bit overweight and all my strava times uphill are very middle of the leaderboards for all my climbs.


Again, I am not making a claim this is bad or good, I think that is a question for each and every land manager to decide for the trails they manage.


What I am asking is to stop trying to hide the fact that eBikes can hit speeds of 14mph on a climb and faster if one is really pushing it to the 20mph cut off.

Anyone wanna setup a go-fund me account? I think I need one.

Thank you, e-bikes have their place but people really need to stop the whole fitness aspect. Skill level I will give you because they haven't figured out a e-skill button yet.

 

[Muggsly]

They are only slightly faster than pro mountainbikers are but they are easily 2x as fast as a regular Joe Schmoe. I mean there are tons of youtubes videos with Ebikers vs pros and the pros get decimated why would you not think they are fast. Thankfully by me we have many trails, some are for ebikes and some are not, and I ride them both on a regular bike.

I will say this and this is just anecdotal the ebikers are more commonly willing to say something rude or something snarky when passing than a regular biker. But that could just be where I am an the bikers that exist here.

I honestly think ebikers are missing out on a prime service though, I would be willing to throw $5 at one for a tow on my 4th or 5th run up a mountain. So ebikers really should be offering shuttle rides for regular bikers so sad they are not doing this yet.

 

[Nosdeho]

My problem isn’t with ebikes in general, it’s with noobs on ebikes who don’t know anything about trail etiquette or how to be user friendly with other trail users. I’ve had old men run up behind me at 15mph and damn near run me off the trail trying to pass me, guys pass me on the climbs and then go 3mph on the downhill and get in my way because they have no idea how to ride a mtb.

An experienced trail user on an ebike is 100% fine by me. A noob on a pedal bike is also 100% fine by me. A noob on an ebike is almost always a nuisance, even if they don’t mean to be. It’s a bad combo and unfortunately, it’s an enticing product for a noobie with no stamina or fitness, so it’s becoming more and more common.

I had one of my Nica coaches pushed down and off the trail looking for a place to let some noob ebiker pass. The ebiker proceeded to push a Nica kid off the trail and he got out of the way, the whole time yelling rider thru. My wife saw the whole thing he looked like a muppet riding a bike, no bike control to speak of. I know the argument there are a holes on all types of bikes but these a holes pay a bunch of money and think they are hot crap. It is not me being a snobby elite just a holes were easier to convince they were a holes when they had just pedal bikes.

 

[Bacon Fat]

I got run off the trail by a LBS shop owner, NICA coach that rides a cannondale. Does that mean all cannondale riders are a-holes? Yes, yes it does.

 

[291748]

I definitely see more ebikes on the smoother, wider trails. Which I don’t ride a lot, but do use them to connect more fun trails.

Yeah, anybody thinking their going to ride 10 or 12 MPH on real N.E. singletrack without a shitload of bike handling skill is going to go to the hospital in very short order. LOL!

Probably a big part of the reason we don't see a lot of e-bikes around here.

 

[Klurejr]

Yeah, anybody thinking their going to ride 10 or 12 MPH on real N.E. singletrack without a shitload of bike handling skill is going to go to the hospital in very short order. LOL!

Probably a big part of the reason we don't see a lot of e-bikes around here.

What is the elevation like on your local trails? Are you doing about 100 feet of climbing per mile on average? That is about what I average on my rides, Lots of up and downs, so the motor is very attractive.

 

[291748]

What is the elevation like on your local trails? Are you doing about 100 feet of climbing per mile on average? That is about what I average on my rides, Lots of up and downs, so the motor is very attractive.

100'/mile is right on the nose around my area. Short ups-n-downs, lots of rocks, roots, tight squeezes and turns.
High speed without skill = injuries aplenty. Slow speed without skill = walking aplenty.

 

[RickBullottaPA]

Over the years there has been a lot of back and forth arguing about just how fast a Class 1 eBike can go and whether or not they are twice as fast as pedal bikes.

I have ridden street based eBikes in the past and was blown away by how quick they are.

Yesterday I finally had the chance to take a Specialized Levo on a lap of a section of trail I have ridden dozens of times over the years on my pedal bike.
This is something I have wanted to do for a number of years now, and finally had the opportunity.

I did the loop first on my pedal bike. I was riding average speeds, not trying to break any records and was very winded and breathing heavily when I got back to the top of the climb. I might have been able to push myself a little bit harder, but that would not have changed the results much.

After a small break I took the Levo on the same loop.

The results are in, Class 1 Pedelec Bikes are super fast, more than twice as fast when climbing.

Please note - I am not saying this is a good or bad thing. I am not saying this can impact every single trail. This is simply a comment about the speed of eBikes. I have been a member on this site for nearly 2 decades now and have been moderating for at least 10 years and the common line from many eBikers is they are only slightly faster.... that is just not true. Can we stop denying it?

Here is the strava data to back my statements up:

Full Loop:
View attachment 1966035
So just over twice as fast for the full loop, this loop starts and ends at a high point, so the decent is roughly equal the climb in elevation. The decent is single track, the climb is a combo of single track and double track, but mostly double track.

Downhill only:
View attachment 1966036
I was not expecting any difference here, there is no reason the eBike should be faster on a decent that requires almost no pedaling.

There is no segment for the entire climb from the bottom to the top. I can probably create one if anyone cares to see that section. But if we just do some quick math;
Pedal Bike 11:06 total minus 1:55 for the down makes the entire climb 9:11
eBike 5:15 total minus 1:58 for the down makes the entire climb 3:17
So total Climb speed is 3x faster.

Climb - Long Section segment (Single track with one small down section)
View attachment 1966037
Right about double the speed for this segment of the climb

Climb - Short Section Segment
View attachment 1966038
This segment is double track, wide open with a few sweeping turns. It was at this point I realized I could up-shift the bike into a harder gear to go even faster with that motor doing all the work for me. 13mph vs 3.5mph - That is 4xfaster then when I pedal.

To show I was not sand bagging it, here are my averages on that section from last year:
View attachment 1966039

I am very much an average climber, a bit overweight and all my strava times uphill are very middle of the leaderboards for all my climbs.


Again, I am not making a claim this is bad or good, I think that is a question for each and every land manager to decide for the trails they manage.


What I am asking is to stop trying to hide the fact that eBikes can hit speeds of 14mph on a climb and faster if one is really pushing it to the 20mph cut off.

Anyone wanna setup a go-fund me account? I think I need one.

No one goes for a 5 minute ride. And some Cat 1 racers could easily put up those same times/speeds for some period of time.

Yes, they are faster - physics and all. But having spent many hours on both (most on regular bikes), the real world difference on average (on reasonably technical trails) is about 20-25% or so, which is roughly how much faster most Cat1/Pro riders are than me on human power.

We should therefore ban Cat1/Pro riders from trails.

 

[itsky]

[...]

We should therefore ban Cat1/Pro riders from trails.

Bush league strawman attempt. Must not be an attorney.

 

[Klurejr]

How did you get this:

We should therefore ban Cat1/Pro riders from trails.

From This:

Please note - I am not saying this is a good or bad thing. I am not saying this can impact every single trail. This is simply a comment about the speed of eBikes. I have been a member on this site for nearly 2 decades now and have been moderating for at least 10 years and the common line from many eBikers is they are only slightly faster.... that is just not true. Can we stop denying it?

I am not calling for the banning of anyone, far from it.

 

[alexbn921]

Ban all noobs!

No new riders should be allowed on the trails. The trails are all mine. .

 

[Carl Mega]

Ban all noobs!

No new riders should be allowed on the trails. The trails are all mine. .

I love it when eBikers forget they are the ones asking to change long, well established access rules to include their motorized vehicles.

 

[Tickle]

I agree w RBPA about 25% "easier", long extended climbs yeah a little faster but mostly just easier. Pedally flat sections a little faster but mostly just easier and downhills not any diff for me as I'm standing and don't pedal much. Completely depends on which mode your using tho, and who's saying ebikes are not any faster?

 

[Klurejr]

who's saying ebikes are not any faster?

You must be new here.

 

[Nosdeho]

I got run off the trail by a LBS shop owner, NICA coach that rides a cannondale. Does that mean all cannondale riders are a-holes? Yes, yes it does.

ok breath for a second, relax. Now reread the post.... New rider on e-bike causes crashes due to thinking he fast. Question, do a holes on regular bike push people off of trail yes, but give that a hole a motor and a level of cockyness to push people off the trail because he is so freaking fast these new riders become problems. I feel the same thing about the new dentist riding a sworks epic being a complete tool to every one who isn't as fast as he is.