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For my riding (not racing), I find that the 10-50 to 10-52 cassettes are largely more range than I need. I'm on a Shimano 10-45 setup. To get the low gear I want, I run a 28t chainring. On the bigger climbs, I occasionally want lower, but it's even rarer that I want taller gearing than 28 x 10. I do actually spread use out across a bigger range of my cassette. It can be annoying at times that getting the gear I want means I need to dump 2-3 gears to get my cadence where I want, instead of just shifting 1 gear, but the XTR shifter lets me make those shifts with fewer presses so it isn't too bad.

Seems to me, though, that regardless of whether you're racing or not, gear spacing is an intensely personal thing. I'll agree that you were hearing mostly useless banter at the shop. That one guy liked the spacing better, sure, but other people won't.
 
10-12-14-16-18-21-24-28-33-39-45-51 is Shimano
(2) (3) (4) (5) (6)
10-12-14-16-18-21-24-28-32-36-40-45T

10-12-14-16-18-21-24-28-32-36-42-50/52
(2) (3) (4) (6) (8) /(10)
10-11-13-15-17-19-21-24-28-32-38-44

Now go play with a gear ratio calculator.
It becomes obvious that in order to climb faster with the shimano cassette you need to operate at a higher cadence
 
On a completely unrelated note, my stockpile of 12-speed drivetrain parts is holding up really well. :)
Same. Kind of astounded how well SRAM X01 and XX! cassetted, chains and chainrings hold up. I assumed they would wear more quickly than their 11-speed counterparts. I was wrong -- happily for the wallet!

10-12-14-16-18-21-24-28-33-39-45-51 is Shimano
(2) (3) (4) (5) (6)
10-12-14-16-18-21-24-28-32-36-40-45T

10-12-14-16-18-21-24-28-32-36-42-50/52
(2) (3) (4) (6) (8) /(10)
10-11-13-15-17-19-21-24-28-32-38-44

Now go play with a gear ratio calculator.
It becomes obvious that in order to climb faster with the shimano cassette you need to operate at a higher cadence
Maybe I'm missing something (on the bigger cassette), but I'm seeing the opposite in gears 1-4, since the Shimano cassette has larger cogs? And gear 5 is equal.
 
Same. Kind of astounded how well SRAM X01 and XX! cassetted, chains and chainrings hold up. I assumed they would wear more quickly than their 11-speed counterparts. I was wrong -- happily for the wallet!

Maybe I'm missing something (on the bigger cassette), but I'm seeing the opposite in gears 1-4, since the Shimano cassette has larger cogs? And gear 5 is equal.
The ratio is smaller on the shimano cassette so you have to spin higher cadence to maintain the same speed. You don't go faster with easier gears unless you can spin at a higher rate than the guy with the smaller ratio.
So it may work for someone who isn't well trained and adapted to the gearing
On a percentage basis the jumps on the Shimano cassette are smaller but the slower you're going you want those jumps to get bigger to recover the cadence
 
The ratio is smaller on the shimano cassette so you have to spin higher cadence to maintain the same speed. You don't go faster with easier gears unless you can spin at a higher rate than the guy with the smaller ratio.
So it may work for someone who isn't well trained and adapted to the gearing
On a percentage basis the jumps on the Shimano cassette are smaller but the slower you're going you want those jumps to get bigger to recover the cadence
So, Neff isn't well trained and adapted to the gearing? Froome was a poor climber?
Ideal cadence is individual. Any many untrained individuals mash the gears in 60's up the hill.
 
So, Neff isn't well trained and adapted to the gearing? Froome was a poor climber?
Ideal cadence is individual. Any many untrained individuals mash the gears in 60's up the hill.
Interesting that you see my comment the way you infer. I said "not well trained and adapted" i.e. not trained with the gear ratio and made the muscular adaptation to generate the power at a higher or lower cadence. I did not say not well trained, nor adapted. Any person who trains on a particular set of gears becomes adapted to producing power at particular RPM ranges
By changing the cassette ratios they will put themself into a different cadence range meaning there would need to be a period of adaptation. In the short term they will see a positive or negative but within days or a few weeks they will adapt and its business as usual. Or the alternative would be to adjust chainring size to allow for a similar ratio as for the other brand cassette.
 
I am not sure I agree with that - I am positive Tempier "got the advice" that his cadence is off probably more times he could count. And a cadence monkey such as Froome also would ride a harder gear if he was quicker with a harder gear.

So yes, you can adapt to accept it, but it probably won't make you quicker (actually it will probably make you slower), otherwise Sky with their machinery would have defined it is 87 rpm, and all Sky riders would have been on 87.
 
I race Expert XCO, XCM and MTB 100s on Sram AXS 10-52. For XCO, the 10-52 allows me to use a 34 front chainring while still having a bailout gear, though I'm not sure I ever use the 52 during an actual race. Though it's good for my training and it's my setup for 99% of my riding/racing. I needed the 34 because I was spinning out on my 32 x 10.

For XCM (under 4 hours) I also use a 34 front chainring and the 52 helps me keep the power down on the punchy steep climbs where I'm trying to pace myself rather than go all out like XCO.

For MTB 100s I switch to a 32 front chainring and this allows me to spin (4-5mph) up long climbs in my 32 x 52. It's ridiculously slow but it allows me to save the legs for later in the race after 8+ hours. I don't need the 52 very often, but when I do, I need it really bad! Late in the race on a particularly punchy climb I've been known to try and shift down only to realize I'm already in my 52. That's when you know you're in a really dark place. There is a hole between that 42 and 52 though, a 46 or 48 would be nice, but it's extremely rare where I feel like it's missing.

I've never used Shimano 10-51 but I'd assume this would allow you to adjust the front chainring to the particular trail/race as Sram's 10-52.
Do you not find your full suspension bikes bob a lot more using the 34T and the reduced Anti-Squat that the larger front chainring creates?

This has became one of the primary motivating factors in how I choose my front chain ring size. It's a balance between the excessive shifting that small chainrings cause (gears too tight) and the AS.

I spend a lot of time very near the high end of my cassette, but actually never quite spin out.
 
Do you not find your full suspension bikes bob a lot more using the 34T and the reduced Anti-Squat that the larger front chainring creates?

This has became one of the primary motivating factors in how I choose my front chain ring size. It's a balance between the excessive shifting that small chainrings cause (gears too tight) and the AS.

I spend a lot of time very near the high end of my cassette, but actually never quite spin out.
I ride my Spark in "traction control" which is the 70mm of travel middle setting of the lockout 99% of the time. I also run 20% sag in the shock, so it's a little stiffer and pedal bob appears minimal unless I'm standing. I haven't paid particular attention to pedal bob regarding the 34 versus the 32. However, after this Sunday's XC race on my 34 I'll be switching to my 32 in preparation for the Shenandoah 100 in 3 weeks. I'll see if I notice a difference after the swap.
 
I ride my Spark in "traction control" which is the 70mm of travel middle setting of the lockout 99% of the time. I also run 20% sag in the shock, so it's a little stiffer and pedal bob appears minimal unless I'm standing. I haven't paid particular attention to pedal bob regarding the 34 versus the 32. However, after this Sunday's XC race on my 34 I'll be switching to my 32 in preparation for the Shenandoah 100 in 3 weeks. I'll see if I notice a difference after the swap.
This is how hardcore XC race bikes are used. It can be inefficient as heck, but at 70mm, it'll still pedal better than a efficient 100mm bike.
 
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Discussion starter · #33 ·
This is how hardcore XC race bikes are used. It can be inefficient as heck, but at 70mm, it'll still pedal better than a efficient 100mm bike.
Agreed. I have a Spark RC, and run 70mm pretty much all the time. Bike pedals like crap in open mode unless going DH. In 70mm it's perfect for my local trails which are smooth or long/steep, fast and lots of surprise pitches after a corner.
 
For my riding the spacing on the Shimano looks like it would be better than the SRAM 10-50 I currently run, and one of these days, I may make the change.
My climbs are on the Wasatch Back in Utah, where it's often a 3000 foot climb to almost 10,000 feet. So far, I almost never have had to use the 50 tooth, but the last bit of the climb is a .48 mile 12.3 percent average grade suffer-fest that starts at 9500 feet up Puke Hill - and my age is becoming a factor. At least a third of that is in 50, and an easier second/third gearing would be pretty nice there! I don't need to get there faster, I just need to get there without stopping.
Better shifting under load and more durable low gears would also be welcome, I'm just not sure Shimano gives me that.
 
The only time I use my 50t is when I have to come to a near stop to get my son’s bike trailer up and over the curb, then up our 30% grade driveway.


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To contribute to the topic, I run AXS with an XTR chain and 10-51 cassette on my main enduro bike. It's amazing. The terrain I ride can be soul sucking to climb and the 45t 2nd gear is just a gem, rendering the 1st 51t gear for emergencies only. I would LOVE to have a midcage electronic deraileur 11 speed 10-45 XTR cassette, also it doesn't exist (yet).

However, that's for an Enduro bike. I also have a (new) lighter weight trail bike (Spur) and I set that up with 11 speed SRAM because it is inexpensive, good ground clearance, and saved a heap of weight in a great place to save it. It's working very well for me with a 30T front but I do wish it was more like a 10-44 or 10-46. But in addition I don't plan to take this bike on the soul sucking climbs with all the ledges, loose rocks, and steep pitches that I usually take my SJ Evo on.

I watched the GBN Enduro bike check the other day and the male Pros were generally running 10-45 cassettes with a 32 front. There really is a hole in the manufacturers lineups missing a good wide ratio 11 speed option built to be premium but also lightweight with better clearance.
 
I’m still in (and will likely remain for a good long time) in the world of 11 speed. Because it’s what was available, I tried using the Shimano 11 speed 11-46 cassette. I hated—HATED—the spacing at the top of the cassette. Back to the Sunrace. Kinda heavy, but certainly last a long time for me. 10-45 Shimano would be my choice if I wanted 12 gears.
 
Yep, 11sp shimano sucks with the large 46 jump, I've even had broken tooth on the 46 cog probably due to the large jump. I still use better spaced 11sp sunrace 46 cassette on my autumn winter beater xc bike, works fine and refuses to die.

12sp shimano on with 39-45-51 works great for me in the upper range, all 3 cogs perfect for the purpose, my cadence style and terrain. Tried the 12sp sunrace hg cassette before freehub conversion, and it sucked (not on range, spacing but shifting)
 
I love my gearing especially in the big end and little end and have been running it for over 10k miles.

Trs+

Gearing 511%: 9-10-12-14-16-18-21-24-28-33-39- 46

I run 32t most of time. (Sometimes 38t on the hardtail for sprinting fun and flatter gravel races)


I would put a weekend warrior on a 28T-30t with this cassette.
 
This is how hardcore XC race bikes are used. It can be inefficient as heck, but at 70mm, it'll still pedal better than a efficient 100mm bike.
Hmm interesting. So you think inefficient 70mm single pivot will alway out smokes Revel Ranger or any other 110-120mm complex suspension system?

Agreed. I have a Spark RC, and run 70mm pretty much all the time. Bike pedals like crap in open mode unless going DH. In 70mm it's perfect for my local trails which are smooth or long/steep, fast and lots of surprise pitches after a corner.
My Spark too. But I never experience any other MTB, so I wonder if it's just the way Scott intend it to be.
They tune the Descend mode for descending without any care of how it pedal. And then Traction mode tuned to be efficient pedaler.

I wonder how it compare to 110-120mm travel bike which have only one mode. So, 110mm travel but suspension tuned for pedaling efficiency.
 
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