Thanks for the quick response! I have e-mailed Manitou. In the meanwhile, how much oil should I add to the air chamber to be safe and not lose too much travel?

 

Well, recommended volume is 6 ml, try 12 ml. )

Please post Manitou's answer here, if they allow it.

 

Reply from Manitou



Hey guys, like I promised I´ll post the answer. Basically they asked me in which country I live (the Netherlands) and directed me to the Dutch distributor. I wrote them the same e-mail in Dutch and they responded within a day that the best thing to do, would be to take it to a local shop and let them send it to the distributor, who would then make the adjustments needed. I have asked them how much this would cost me and will post the answer when I get it.

 

Thanks, will do

 

"XC" versus "Trail" Shim Stacks

I have a question that relates to the feel of a "XC" tuned damper versus the "Trail" tuned unit. Assuming that the coil is suited to the rider's weight and the air pressure is set within the correct limits, what are the differences in ride feel between the two? According to the Manitou tuning guide, the only difference between the two shim stacks is the addition of one 17.5 x 0.20 velocity shim for the Trail tune. The figures show that there is 44lbs less platform in the Trail tune but what are the real world differences when riding?

Just for reference, I'm coming from a Reba Race 29 fork that was used for general cross country and endurance riding. The Reba was a good, reliable unit but I found that I was constantly reaching down to lock it out on climbs and then flicking it open 2 - 3 clicks for a plusher ride on flatter and/or downhill sections. Given the tunability of the Manitou ABS+ damper, is is possible to find one setting that doesn't need to be adjusted over the course of a ride?

I'd also be interested to hear the experiences of anybody who has had a good result with one of the "Linear" shim stacks for cross country use.

 

Those are good questions. The main answer is no, you will not be able to avoid manually adjusting LSC on Absolute+ for that kind of riding where you need both the platform and the plushness.

The stacks called "Linear" don't have platform shims at all, so it's not possible to lock them out completely by closing LSC (red knob fully clockwise).

The 2 differences between "XC" and "Trail" stacks are just that, Trail has less platform but it has more speed dependency (bigger slope on the damping curve). The platform on XC stacks is huge, as if it was intended to absolutely (pun not intended) prevent compression by standing pedaling efforts, no matter how heavy and strong the rider is.

What I have done to avoid manual adjustment is to do away with plushness. I set the smallest amount of platform that can prevent compression if I pull on the bars simultaneously with pedal downstroke. I also set some speed dependency to avoid using too much travel. I always ride it with LSC fully closed. The result is a fork that is not plush by any definition of plush, but the harder I go, the better it works. It opens up to make up for every mistake. And it doesn't bob when I pedal standing. A couple LSC clicks counterclockwise, and I get the plushness -- not that I have any need of it on the DJ/urban/tech XC/do-all bike the fork is used.

 

Thanks for the info. On reflection, I guess it's asking too much to wish for a "plush platform". I'm presuming you got the feel you want by starting with a Trail stack. Also, do you ever get full travel from your standard setup?

This thread is a great resource.

 

Yes, I was using Trail stacks from the document as a guide. I don't remember getting exactly 100 mm of travel, but near-full travel, within a few mm from 100, happens on multiple occasions, such as rougher pilot errors, or deliberate front-wheel-first landings. I think it's the air chambers, both Mars Air and Absolute+ MRD, which limit the travel to slightly under 100 mm.

In any case, the fork feels "bottomless", as they say. There's no sudden ramp-up of resistance to compression, it's all gradual.


Recently I've done about the same tuning to a 80 mm Circus Comp. Must have put too weak a platform, because it bobs very slightly when I pedal. Adding a second platform shim created too strong a platform. I should have played with preload reducing shims more.

The bottomless feel, however, is there, but because of the firm coil spring, I rarely get over 60-65 mm of travel. The highest current gunk mark measured 72 mm from the top of (Enduro) seals. That 72 mm hit I certainly remember as the one where I crashed and bruised my right thumb against the grip, this was severe pilot error on takeoff (and subsequent botched landing).

 

Thanks! So they are now shifting to handling issues through their dealer network.. (which, to me, invariably sounds like more delays.)

 

Yeah, I agree. Or maybe they put more effort into their US customers than the ones in the EU (wouldn't be the first company to do so), although I have to admit they are quick with their responses. Some companies keep you waiting for an answer for weeks.

 

I have the 100mm version, so it should be the medium version then. Isn't this the right one for my weight (+- 155 lbs incl. gear)?

p.s. two-one: thanks for the PM. Unfortunately my post count (5) is too low to reply via PM (need 10 posts). This was my reply:

Hey (name),

ik woon in Spijkenisse (15 km onder Rotterdam), maar op zich zou ik best graag een keer langskomen als ik er zelf niet uit kom. Is het goed als ik in dat geval contact met je opneem? Ik vind het namelijk een beetje overdreven als jij nu moeite moet steken in mijn vork voordat ik zelf ermee gestoeid heb In ieder geval super bedankt voor het bericht!

Gr.,
Marcel

 

So, I have a 130mm Minute MRD with the MILO remote. Anyone pulled the damper to see how to increase low speed compression with these? I have the xfirm spring installed and run 100 psi, but slow technical maneuvers experience a scary amount of brake dive and it rides pretty well down into the travel, more than I'd like.

Do these have a set screw inside that is adjustable to control lsc? Or will messing with the shims help?

I've only ever used tpc+ and spv, haven't fudged around with Absolute yet. Thanks!

 

^^^ Isn't this post helpful?

http://forums.mtbr.com/shocks-suspe...suspension/how-guide-reshim-your-abs-hsc-shim-stack-687754-12.html#post10188737

You should be prepared to forget small bump compliance, though.

 

I have never used MILO, But from what I know, there is no separate LSC adjustment. Using the MILO remote will take the LSC from fully open, to fully closed when the lever is pushed. An email to Manitou will either confirm that there is nothing you can do, or give you some options.

One thing to note though, is that LSC does not prevent brake dive. It controls the speed at which the fork dives, not how much. Its still an important adjustment, but not the total solution of diving problems. If your fork is diving deep into it travel, the spring rate is likely off and the major problem. I know you said you are using the Xfirm spring, but you may want to look into the XXfirm spring that is suppose to be available soon(if not already) Another option would be to put a few CCs of oil on the piston to give a more progressive spring rate, firming up the midstroke support.

It also sounds like you upgraded to ABS+, what damper did you have before?

 

One thing to note though, is that LSC does not prevent brake dive. It controls the speed at which the fork dives, not how much.

Yes, I read an interview with Ed Kwatersky where he basically said the same thing: http://twentynineinches.com/2012/06/26/the-engineer-speaks-2012-manitou-tower-pro/

Although when I lock down the fork (Max adjuster position), I don't have any significant brake dive, even when the amount (not only the speed) of dive is concerned.

True, you have to sacrifice plushness in that condition. But tuning platform to the minimum necessary (J. Random Psycho's setup), it should still offer good ride quality in steep, rough, technical paths, absorbing medium to big hits.

 

Two notes.

1. If you decide to add oil for progression, know that it drains down through piston seal rather quickly on many a Minute Mars Air fork.

2. The only true way to set sag on Mars Air is to change coil spring.

 

If you decide to add oil for progression, know that it drains down through piston seal rather quickly on many a Minute Mars Air fork.

I had this experience too, so I''m planning to use some silicone grease as a volume-reducer/lubricant... good luck flushing that stuff past an o-ring

 

I'll try that too next time. Will use LiquiMoly Silicon-Fett that I put in shock air cans.

However, I tried mixing Rock-n-Roll Super Slick with heavy (10W-60) motor oil, and while it holds somewhat longer than motor oil alone, it still gets pushed through uncomfortably quickly. In the process, Super Slick separates from oil and gathers on the lower side of the piston.

 

I don't know because I have not looked at any of the parts schematics but I would THINK that you could buy the air piston shaft from a longer travel fork like a tower 120 and cut it to be longer than the one in the existing fork to reduce air volume. Just make sure that the shaft is not too long where it hits the top cap. That is just a thought.

The other thought would be to try a heavier oil in the dampener and a lighter shim stack which should slow down the brake dive I would think.

 

Hi,

perhaps I already asked this question, can't remember. But I realised I get bewildered when comparing two dyno-charts from Manitou's abs+ tuning guide. Specifically, they are the charts for the stock XC CV-11411-03 stack, and for CV-11411-01.

CV-11411-03 has 2 blow-off shims (19 x 0.20t), and the resulting platform is 116 lbs:

CV-11411-01 has 1 thinner blow-off shim (19 x 0.15t), and platform is 50 lbs:

The clamp shim is the same in both stacks.

I'd expect that removing 1 blow-off shim from production XC stack (19 x 0.20t) would result in a platform of around 60 lbs. So, not much difference between this setup and CV-11411-01 with the thinner 0.15t shim.. confused

This seems to contradict the following statement, always from the tuning guide:

When stacking up shims of the same OD, increasing quantity has a
linear increase in stiffness, resulting in a linear change in the damping force. Thickness however, has a cubic relationship to stiffness (t3), therefore, increasing the thickness of an individual shim has a significantly higher effect on damping force.
[...]
It would take 8 shims 0.10mm thick to equal 1 shimthat is 0.20mm thick (OD being equal)

On the other hand, stack CV-11411-07 seems in line with that statement, as 3 blow-off shims (19 x 0.2t) result in 169 lbs of platform (i.e. about 3/2 the force of production XC stack):

Now the question is: does this difference from theory depend on the clamp shim, which mitigates the effects of blow-off shim thickness?

 

Ooooopssss.. Yes, i already asked that, and mullen119 answered!!

Sorry

 

Just ordered some shims and I'm getting ready to dive into HSC tuning on my Tower Pro 29. I figured I'd be sensible this time and read up on it *before* I open it up. I've read through this thread and the articles that are linked from it and gone through the Manitou tuning guide and have a question. It seems that wherever multiple platform or speed shims of the same size are used, they are always the same thickness. Is there a technical reason not to use a stack like say, a 19 x 0.2 and a 19 x 0.15 or is it just that there isn't enough of a functional difference to bother with it?

 

You can combine (as in, stack next to each other) shims of equal diameters but different thicknesses to get closer to the desired amount of platform.

 

Well, I decided to check out the shim stack on my recently purchased Tower Pro 29, even though the new shims haven't arrived yet. It came with the Production Trail Stack.
Since I wanted to try some changes that didn't require new shims, using the very well done instructions in this thread I pulled one of the 19 x 0.20t blow-off shims, making it an EK-012611-03 trail stack, and went for a ride. The first change was a step in the right direction, but I just pulled the other blow-off shim to make it a CV-11411-10 linear stack. I'll try it tomorrow to see what it does and my shim order will be here Wednesday, so I'll happily be diving into the experimentation full blast then. This thread has been a tremendous help and my thanks to everyone who has contributed.

 

i have a question or two, but 1st i'd like to say with the MILO it really limits you on performance. it doesn't come close to giving full open to full LO. i'd say from memory that there is prolly a 135* swing with the stock abs+ lever. the milo however only gives 89*, but we'll call it 90. so that being said there is roughly 1/3 of lost tunability. it took me a bit to get it dialled but i think i have mine at full LO to 3-4 clicks from LO. i'm ditching it tonight. i also thought about a RS poplock so you can dial it as needed from the bars.

ok, so bear with me as im a vigin fork tuner and it is taking me a moment to wrap my head around this. i read this whole thread last night along with solitones & trailmakers. heres my info :
185-187 lbs geared up
2011 tower pro with med, firm, & x-firm springs. firm is installed. 90 psi 1/2 rebound
unsure of stack in damper. i've read that it should have trail, but others are saying they have xc. i need to check tonight.
i love the plushness, but the brake dive is killing me. i ride aggressively, so if i dont bail at least once im not pushing it hard enough. mainly xc trails here in mid MI, however once i slap this fork on to my new nimble 9 frame i will be heading to lift assist trails and to the porcupine mtns in the UP. i feel my sag is where it should be on the firm spring in an attack mode. so my question is do i need less platform shims?

edit: i also bottom out once or twice a ride. which is fine as i feel like i have fork pretty well dialled cause i'm using all my travel. most rides are around 12-20 miles with a couple of drops ranging from 2-5 feet.

 

Are you sure you have the right pressure? Why don't you try and rise it gradually, and note the effect?

Before you focus on damping, you should be reasonably sure you're not undersprung.

 

fishwrinkly, how tall are you? If you have the production stack (either), you shouldn't need to change it if your only complaint is dive. What you need to try is to dial in some lsc, assuming the spring is correct. Where do you currently have the lsc set, clicks out? Dive and plushness is always going to be a balancing act. Also, you've got the x firm spring, so try it. I'd eliminate that variable before you focus too much on damping, as adding lsc to control damping is really just a crutch.

 

thanks solitone i will get out there tomorrow possibly to play more with pressures. ktm520 i'm 6'2". i still have the milo on so its hard to say exact clicks but at least mid to a lil above toward LO. well when i get time i will report back with numbers.

 

Missed the Milo part. That makes it hard to fine tune. When you have it set firm (locked out, whatever you want to call it), is the dive still excessive? You may have a hard time dialing the lsc with the milo installed.

I'm the same height but only weigh 160. For a tall rider, it's hard to completely eliminate dive, especially when standing, because our body has more leverage on the bike compared to a shorter rider. Running a stiffer spring is the only real cure in my experience, but like I said, then plushness is compromised. Adding lsc is more about stability than actually reducing the amount of dive, ie travel used. It just slows down how quickly it happens.

I'm still getting my fork tuned in, actually getting ready to try a med spring, but with a plush setup, it doesn't dive worst than any RS or Fox fork I have ridden. I'm still amazed by the action of this fork and can't believe I've waited this long to try one. The tuneability is just icing.