what's the real world difference on the trail for the rider with all these different systems. i'm not looking for an engineering dissertation or regurgitated marketing splech, just a practical guide as what design is best applied to what use.
horst vs dw-link vs vpp vs maestro vs single pivot vs.......
vqdriver
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And yes, I've ridden the Softride beam bike (Sh!tbike) with Girvin Flex Stem off road and lived.
mk
mk
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Great post! Agreed
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Hey I rode the softride bike as well! It is amazing to think that people (like Bob Roll!) actually raced that thing.
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Gunna disagree with that one. Due to the very low pivot on most FSR type bikes, I find they do pretty poorly on sharp-edged hits at speed. They tend to bounce a lot more and not absorb the hit as a higher-pivot type bike would.
This doesn't mean you can't screw up a higher pivot. Very high pivots need a chain-roller or something to raise the chainline. Other ones use linkages to make a virtual pivot and a wheelpath that doesn't arc forward so much. This is a balance obviously, but you can usually get better downhill suspension performance without much or any real pedal interference. Obviously there have been plenty of bikes that DID have lots of pedal interference, earlier VPPs, simple high pivots, etc, but that's not really where we are at anymore, and even though I ride an FSR and I've owned something like 4 or 5 now, that low pivot is it's Achilles heel as far as bump absorption. Digs in great for traction at low speeds, but bucks you a lot more in sharp-edged terrain. A high end shock tune helps, but it doesn't fix it.
I was blown away how a DW bike with a run-of-the-mill air-shock was so much better at absorbing these bumps, in addition to the wheelpath/arc, it also uses much less compression damping, something that has to be jacked up quite a bit on the FSR to make it pedal better in many situations.
My best bump-absorbing bike was a single-pivot with a moto-linkage, the pivot was fairly high and forward, but it intersected the chainline (on the big 42-44t rings we used to use back then). That means I didn't really get any pedal interference, but it reacted better to square edged bumps. The parallel-linkage bikes like the DWs, but others too, are even better.
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Can't generalize about suspension designs really, as simplifications will come across misunderstood and inaccurate in some perspectives, not to mention that there are plenty of exceptions.
Currently, single pivot designs aren't really any worse in terms of suspension performance to other designs, thanks to how advanced rear shocks have become. An inline shock like the Fox CTD is super lightweight and has performance the rivals much heavier shocks, combined with a lightweight single pivot design, can make for an inexpensive yet lightweight trail bike. Split Pivot and ABP address one of the single pivot's design concerns, with how much braking influences suspension performance, which is something that the FSR design had over single pivot designs. One thing is for certain, their performance is highly dependent on the shock.
Dual short links allow for a fully triangulated rear swingarm. This increases rear end stiffness quite a bit. If you push it hard and want a bike that takes a bit more lateral and torsional force before you start feeling the bike twist up and behave in a way that can be unexpected unless you get used it, this might be plus. They are 4-bar designs like the FSR (FSR is like a dual link, with a long lower link), but they each have their own design philosophies that differentiate themselves. Their suspension performance can't be considered generally better, but they seem to be more novice friendly and can impress those that jump on for short rides. I'd say, if you rent or are a novice, or are looking for an used bike made in the mid-2000s, a bike with this design will feel better than a single pivot design as is, but I'd say if you do buy an used bike, the single pivot probably would be a better overall performer once you buy a new current shock for it, especially a custom tuned one made for you, the bike, your terrain, and riding style. Certain dual-short link bikes like DW-Link require peculiar non-standard shock tunes to perform well, while certain others were intended to improve suspension performance with the poorer quality of shocks back then. No real comment about Ellsworth 4-bar (you can prob call it a dual long link or parallelogram), but it can be safe to say its design doesn't make it any more superior/inferior to anything else in a significant manner.
I'm crossed between Switch, FSR/other horst link, and ABP/Split Pivot for personal favorite. I believe Yeti's Switch has the best overall suspension performance, but seriously, with how good shocks are these days, bump performance isn't an issue, it's the overall feel of the bike that becomes the issue.
Current iterations of Switch seem too heavy (or too expensive for carbon versions) and a bit too avante garde for my tastes, made for riding harder than many trails I ride seem to support. It has the most impressive pure performance, when setup with about 25% sag; never before has 5-6" of travel felt like overkill for trails before. It's not like my skills are good or bad, it's that the bike does all the work for me so I need to go even harder for my skill level to make a difference. That and only a downtube waterbottle mount kind of is a bummer. Susp feels a bit linear in stock form, and putting in more air seems to take away from its performance, but thankfully Fox has volume spacers you can simply add to make it more progressive. The Yeti SB-95c is probably the ultimate novice bike; people will not believe you are a novice if you are on one riding in their group, it makes you ride that much better.
"Downgrading" a bit for a bit of challenge (and fun) back into riding the local trails, I'd choose to buy FSR and ABP/Split pivot bikes. How they feel tends to depend on frame design, and parts spec. With how far rear shocks have come along over the years, simple bikes like this can be as every bit of well riding as any of the over-hyped short dual link bikes. Not as confident feeling and generally not as stable feeling, but fun nonetheless, with thrills stemming from getting sketchy and almost wiping out. They're much lighter than an SB bike which helps it fly up the climbs, without needing to spend 3k on a carbon SB frame. That's cool for my local trails that I know so well, but when traveling, I think I'd find something more stable and capable like the Yeti SB bikes to be a wiser choice, as some super agile bike like a Spec SJ FSR Evo 26" that is great fun for thrills, makes it far more prone to crashing; also, riding carefully can makes things even harder than if you just let go and went as fast as the trail makes you go naturally.
Currently, single pivot designs aren't really any worse in terms of suspension performance to other designs, thanks to how advanced rear shocks have become. An inline shock like the Fox CTD is super lightweight and has performance the rivals much heavier shocks, combined with a lightweight single pivot design, can make for an inexpensive yet lightweight trail bike. Split Pivot and ABP address one of the single pivot's design concerns, with how much braking influences suspension performance, which is something that the FSR design had over single pivot designs. One thing is for certain, their performance is highly dependent on the shock.
Dual short links allow for a fully triangulated rear swingarm. This increases rear end stiffness quite a bit. If you push it hard and want a bike that takes a bit more lateral and torsional force before you start feeling the bike twist up and behave in a way that can be unexpected unless you get used it, this might be plus. They are 4-bar designs like the FSR (FSR is like a dual link, with a long lower link), but they each have their own design philosophies that differentiate themselves. Their suspension performance can't be considered generally better, but they seem to be more novice friendly and can impress those that jump on for short rides. I'd say, if you rent or are a novice, or are looking for an used bike made in the mid-2000s, a bike with this design will feel better than a single pivot design as is, but I'd say if you do buy an used bike, the single pivot probably would be a better overall performer once you buy a new current shock for it, especially a custom tuned one made for you, the bike, your terrain, and riding style. Certain dual-short link bikes like DW-Link require peculiar non-standard shock tunes to perform well, while certain others were intended to improve suspension performance with the poorer quality of shocks back then. No real comment about Ellsworth 4-bar (you can prob call it a dual long link or parallelogram), but it can be safe to say its design doesn't make it any more superior/inferior to anything else in a significant manner.
I'm crossed between Switch, FSR/other horst link, and ABP/Split Pivot for personal favorite. I believe Yeti's Switch has the best overall suspension performance, but seriously, with how good shocks are these days, bump performance isn't an issue, it's the overall feel of the bike that becomes the issue.
Current iterations of Switch seem too heavy (or too expensive for carbon versions) and a bit too avante garde for my tastes, made for riding harder than many trails I ride seem to support. It has the most impressive pure performance, when setup with about 25% sag; never before has 5-6" of travel felt like overkill for trails before. It's not like my skills are good or bad, it's that the bike does all the work for me so I need to go even harder for my skill level to make a difference. That and only a downtube waterbottle mount kind of is a bummer. Susp feels a bit linear in stock form, and putting in more air seems to take away from its performance, but thankfully Fox has volume spacers you can simply add to make it more progressive. The Yeti SB-95c is probably the ultimate novice bike; people will not believe you are a novice if you are on one riding in their group, it makes you ride that much better.
"Downgrading" a bit for a bit of challenge (and fun) back into riding the local trails, I'd choose to buy FSR and ABP/Split pivot bikes. How they feel tends to depend on frame design, and parts spec. With how far rear shocks have come along over the years, simple bikes like this can be as every bit of well riding as any of the over-hyped short dual link bikes. Not as confident feeling and generally not as stable feeling, but fun nonetheless, with thrills stemming from getting sketchy and almost wiping out. They're much lighter than an SB bike which helps it fly up the climbs, without needing to spend 3k on a carbon SB frame. That's cool for my local trails that I know so well, but when traveling, I think I'd find something more stable and capable like the Yeti SB bikes to be a wiser choice, as some super agile bike like a Spec SJ FSR Evo 26" that is great fun for thrills, makes it far more prone to crashing; also, riding carefully can makes things even harder than if you just let go and went as fast as the trail makes you go naturally.
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I have actually changed my tune a bit and have come to a wacky conclusion. That is, for us bigger folks (6'1", 200 lbs) dw linked bikes just don't work so well. The requirement for a very lightly damped shock, and relatively high leverage ratio (talking Turner 5-Spot here) gives no mid-stroke support and an overall poorer ride than a HL or SP bike with a more heavily damped shock. Increasing the compression dampening on said bike just makes everything worse. For light folks, things may be perfect but for bigger people, it is a step back. Not saying it is bad but if you want to nit-pick, the suspension action from a HL/SP bike with a higher damped shock is better both up and down, than on a dw linked bike. And this from a guy that currently rides a 2011 5-Spot with a Pushed RP23.
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All of these articles and kinematics comparisons really don't get at the issue: people ride bikes.
You have to be ON the bike to love it or hate it. You can't read or study or engineer your way into a bike that you love. Your riding style dictates so much that you have to talk about specific people, specific bikes for specific areas. You have in include their desired uses as well as their current limitations.
While fun, these academic discussions will do little but steer you to your local bike shop to take advantage of test-rides and demo days so you can figure it all out for yourself. If people asked me, everyone would be riding stumpjumper and not everyone would be happy. Each bike has a different personality, thankfully. All of these choices are confusing, to be sure, but in this silly sport we have all come to love so much, we decide to spend the time and considerable amounts of coin to figure it out.
Rest assured, whatever you end up getting, you'll want to try something else, you'll want a shorter travel, longer travel, lighter, heavier, smaller-wheeled, larger-wheeled bike at some point in the near future and maybe multiple times during a given ride!
Enjoy the ride. I'm going to get out and enjoy the cool, east coast roots and rocks today under sunny, blue skies with a good buddy. And I don't think I'll spend two seconds caring about my bike as we Star Wars speeder through the trees.
Rubber = down...
mk
You have to be ON the bike to love it or hate it. You can't read or study or engineer your way into a bike that you love. Your riding style dictates so much that you have to talk about specific people, specific bikes for specific areas. You have in include their desired uses as well as their current limitations.
While fun, these academic discussions will do little but steer you to your local bike shop to take advantage of test-rides and demo days so you can figure it all out for yourself. If people asked me, everyone would be riding stumpjumper and not everyone would be happy. Each bike has a different personality, thankfully. All of these choices are confusing, to be sure, but in this silly sport we have all come to love so much, we decide to spend the time and considerable amounts of coin to figure it out.
Rest assured, whatever you end up getting, you'll want to try something else, you'll want a shorter travel, longer travel, lighter, heavier, smaller-wheeled, larger-wheeled bike at some point in the near future and maybe multiple times during a given ride!
Enjoy the ride. I'm going to get out and enjoy the cool, east coast roots and rocks today under sunny, blue skies with a good buddy. And I don't think I'll spend two seconds caring about my bike as we Star Wars speeder through the trees.
Rubber = down...
mk
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I'm 195 lbs. and slightly taller. For whatever reasons (subjectivity alert
), a large '09 Sultan (DW w/ stock RP-23 setup) works superbly for me. I've ridden a 5-spot and HL Sultan as well (in addition to Pivot Mach 429, Ibis HD and other FS designs).To each their own and as others have said, the best way to evaluate is ride 'em and see what works.
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The more I think about it, it is the bike and not necessarily the system. The 5-spot uses a 50.8mm shock to get its 143mm of travel. The Sultan uses the same 50.8 mm shock to get 125 mm of travel. That bike may have been much better suited for me. ):I'm 195 lbs. and slightly taller. For whatever reasons (subjectivity alert
To each their own and as others have said, the best way to evaluate is ride 'em and see what works.
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I don't think it's a matter of weight, it all personal preference. Think about the VPP of Santa Cruz. Those bikes have very little support in the mid stroke and a lot of people love them. So you have a Fox PR23, a crappy shock. You send it to Push and it gets better, but you still don't like it... Maybe it's time to move on: get a coil shock, even a cheap one and give it a try. You are probably going to like it a lot, then you can upgrade to something better with a Ti Sping.
DW-Link neds very little damping and that's a bit difficult to setup. If you go to low it's easy to loose support in the mid stroke and it's easy to bottom out. Yo can fix the Bottom Out reducing volume, but a coil shock is probably going to be even better.
Tony.
DW varies greatly between Ibis and Turner. You mean a design which purposely uses a high intial anti squat , progressive leverage ratio and low compression tune shock.
On paper my Metas, with their single pivot, have very simialr anti squat and leverage ratio curves to the 5 spot.. Only difference is anti squat and pedal feed back drop off on the 5 spot. There in lies the difference betwen a single pivot and a virtual bike. if your not a confident biike handler and drag your rear brake all the time then get a Vp bike. If your confident and can delay your braking or have ample rear suspension to compensate then a single pivot is fine. Most can't tell the difference anyway and 1mm pivot posn difference would be more important than any copyrighted vp suspension style.
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If it's sold by a competent manufacturer today, you're good...
I'm going to invoke the MTBR version of Godwin's Law and just say "Horst!" instead of "Hitler!"
There are SO many good designs and shocks are SO good, that it's really an embarrassment of riches when it comes to suspension design. Yes, things keep getting better, but as has been stated, even the relatively simple single pivot designs ride incredibly well with today's shocks.
I'd be hard pressed to say anything currently sold by up to date manufacturers "sucks".
It's ALL GOOD. Really.
But some are better then others, it's just a matter of finding the right combo of feel, cost and application. A newer rider who rides buff singletrack will enjoy some designs in a different way then someone who rides the chunk at higher speeds etc.
Like many, I've spent a ton of time on Spesh product, SC VPP/VPP2 and DW Link (Ibis, Pivot, Turner) and the truth is, I've had great rides on ALL of them. A good bike, good trail and the time to enjoy it...
I ride DW Link (Ibis HDR650b) and love it. It matches my riding and it's got the feel I love, but even with something I thought I knew well, it's stunning to me how much a good tune on a fork or shock can improve things. Today's stock shocks are really good, but they can be made even better by those who know what they're doing (PUSH, BikeCo etc)
I'm going to invoke the MTBR version of Godwin's Law and just say "Horst!" instead of "Hitler!"
There are SO many good designs and shocks are SO good, that it's really an embarrassment of riches when it comes to suspension design. Yes, things keep getting better, but as has been stated, even the relatively simple single pivot designs ride incredibly well with today's shocks.
I'd be hard pressed to say anything currently sold by up to date manufacturers "sucks".
It's ALL GOOD. Really.
But some are better then others, it's just a matter of finding the right combo of feel, cost and application. A newer rider who rides buff singletrack will enjoy some designs in a different way then someone who rides the chunk at higher speeds etc.
Like many, I've spent a ton of time on Spesh product, SC VPP/VPP2 and DW Link (Ibis, Pivot, Turner) and the truth is, I've had great rides on ALL of them. A good bike, good trail and the time to enjoy it...
I ride DW Link (Ibis HDR650b) and love it. It matches my riding and it's got the feel I love, but even with something I thought I knew well, it's stunning to me how much a good tune on a fork or shock can improve things. Today's stock shocks are really good, but they can be made even better by those who know what they're doing (PUSH, BikeCo etc)
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I AGREE! Just enjoy the ride whatever it is you are pedaling!
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All this agreement is pissing me off. Will somebody start a fight or something?
Your bike sucks!
mk
Your bike sucks!
mk
Yes it does. It sucks very much
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Aw, I was just kidding. Your bike is rad.
See? I can't do it...
mk
See? I can't do it...
mk
I wouldn't give up on the 5 spot.Getting the right shock or tune sweet spot should be all it takes.
Probably telling you to suck eggs.
Any of these changes could help at the risk of making it too choppy on the rough stuff.
Monarch Rt3, even in L comp tune are more linear and supportive than the more active boost valve or CTD Rp23.
It's counter intuitive but raising the air volume and then adding pressure adds mid range support on most set ups.
Try using the Trail/ propedal lever offset with lower air pressure or higher air volume. Many are adverse to using it,but many designers have built in the use of CTD trail or boost valve propedal levers in to their shock tunes. The idea being to increase the envelope of the suspension. It's no longer a sign of poor suspension design . Even those frames with good anti squat can benefit from it. People didn't get the lower tune and propedal function when Fox retuned the Rp23 with boost valve so they had to reinvent it as CTD adjust. Many still don't get it.
When talking about suspension design, there isn't. Shocks are better, frames are lighter and stiffer. Wheels are lighter and stronger and tires are dramatically better. Bikes on the whole are world better.
But we know, the dw fanboys will never stop pushing their system ...
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50,613 Posts
You can rationalize it all you want, I've ridden these bikes and they are a dramatic improvement. Low pivots like FSRs still bounce off sharp-edged impacts and pedal poorly up hills, high pivots way above the chainline are rare, but still cause loss of traction in rough stuff and interference with pedaling. Modern designs balance out these traits, without having to make the compromises, like poor sharp-edge impact performance, or poor suspension sensitivity/activeness.
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