[scottzg]

Why exactly?

Well both my sets of zees have about a billion miles on them, so that could be a factor. I don't remember them being different though.

XT seem to be ultimately more powerful, but less grabby initially. I like the lever blade more, and the levers are firmer when you really clamp down on them. The caliper bleed port is in a better location, the hose comes out in a better spot and is usefully adjustable, and the finishing is nicer.

I like both brakes, but in every way they're different the XT are better.

 

[ocnLogan]

So, I'm curious here. Its interesting people say that the 4 piston shimano calipers have increased modulation, especially the Saint in particular.

While, I've never ridden a set of Saints (or Zees), I've read a fair number of reviews of these brakes. And from those reviews, I had the impression that the Saints were the "grabbiest" of all of the shimano brakes, or at the very least had the strong reputation for a relative lack of modulation.

I'll have to try a 4 piston set of shimanos the next time I have the chance, just to see how they feel.

And, I understand the argument of less braking power taking more finger strength, and potentially more overall arm pump. But I don't think the situation is as simple as it may seem at first.

First, there are many other brakes out there with more measured braking torque, that have "better" modulation than shimano brakes (Trikkstuff, as one example), so simply saying that less modulation == more power == more better isn't the whole story. How it is delivered matters as well.

Second, i'd argue that having less force/distance travel required to do something isn't always better. I think this part of the reason that people have different preferences comes down of course to what type of brakes they're used to, but I would also guess that a lot to everyones personal fitness levels/exhaustion, and the degree/development of fine vs gross motor control skills.

Typically as you get more fatigued/paniced/etc, fine motor control skills get relatively more difficult than when you were fresh. So depending on the person, using the 1-2mm of lever travel that may theoretically exist between engagement, and locking up the brakes and skidding may be more/less difficult than it would be on another brake that had 1-4mm of lever travel before locking up the brakes. So that may be a reason why someone may prefer to have a brake with a more gradual engagement.

And for how much modulation is "most correct"? It seems that is likely a hot debate, and probably pretty personal. The above is just me trying to say that people have different preferences, for probably for many different reasons.

 

[Groove_c]

The thing is that most people upgrade to 4-pot Guide or Code from 2-pot brakes that come stock on most of bikes or buy a new bike with them.
So the modulation difference between 2-pot on/off vs. 4-pot Guide/Code is obvious.

To me, this is where most of the conclusions/experiences come from.

Shimano 4-pot have all the power towards the end of the stroke, while SRAM, TRP, Hayes, Magura, Trickstuff have it literally/really at the end.

But one can buy XTR Race levers combined with any of Shimano calipers for this linear/gradual experience.
Btw, all current 4-pot Shimanos (SLX/XT/XTR) have an "improved" lever Servo-Wave curve, much more linear vs. Saint/Zee/XT M8020. But still not completely linear.

I personally don't know people that have switched from Shimano 4-pot to SRAM 4-pot.
But I know a lot of people who have done the opposite.

I personally have combined my Saint calipers with XTR Race (no Servo-Wave linear) levers and also with XTR Trail (Servo-Wave) levers and I prefer much more the levers with Servo-Wave, because for me, literally linear was too linear.

 

[Groove_c]

Well both my sets of zees have about a billion miles on them, so that could be a factor. I don't remember them being different though.

XT seem to be ultimately more powerful, but less grabby initially. I like the lever blade more, and the levers are firmer when you really clamp down on them. The caliper bleed port is in a better location, the hose comes out in a better spot and is usefully adjustable, and the finishing is nicer.

I like both brakes, but in every way they're different the XT are better.

Well, I also appreciate the better bleed port and banjo placement and the finishing of my XTR 4-pot.
But concerning the braking power, I can tell you that Zee come almost always with cheapest non-finned organic pads, that are 40% worse than aftermarket Shimano original organic finned pads, not even comparing to sintered finned pads, which come stock on new 4-pot XT/XTR.
So this could be the difference.
And I assume you had exactly organic pads on your Zees, as you say that the initial bite is not as good as it was on Zees, which is normal, since organic pads have stronger initial bite, but fade much quicker and have less max braking power.

I saw no difference since I've upgraded from Saint sintered finned pads to XTR sintered finned pads.

 

[idividebyzero]

Which brakes were mounted before Guides?
Most certainly 2-pot Shimanos.

I'm almost sure you haven't even owned 4-pot Shimanos, but still affirm that you prefer Guides.
Otherwise you wouldn't say this.
It's normal for literally any 4-pot to have better modulation than 2-pot (regardless of the manufacturer).

If it's so difficult to control yourself from applying to much force when braking (4-pot), then buying less powerful brakes (4-pot) can't "solve" this, so can still apply same amount of force, but obviously, with lesser effect. Yes, indeed.

I prefer less fatigue at the end of the ride and don't see any problems controlling perfectly my 4-pot Shimanos. Even with a 203 mm rear rotor.

I had XTR trail, Saint, and XT. When the front XTR brake failed I replaced it with a Saint, even trying the XTR lever with Saint caliper for the alleged "extra modulation" (there was none). I couldnt tell much of a difference with the Saint, it had more power but it was at the end of the curve that was rarely used in normal riding.

The Guides have more power at less pressure when in the middle of the curve, or perhaps its because they give so much more control that I dont feel like Im grabbing the lever as firmly to make constant adjustments. Saints have a more absolute stopping power and feel more confident for rolling down a big rock but they arent as good at gradually slowing down for turns or holding the brake on a techy loose trail (which is where I spend 90% of the time braking).

After riding Shimano brakes for so long there are still moments where I am wowed by the extra control in situations that I instinctively expect jolty harsh braking but instead just smoothly roll through it.

 

[Groove_c]

The Guides have more power at less pressure when in the middle of the curve, or perhaps its because they give so much more control that I dont feel like Im grabbing the lever as firmly to make constant adjustments.

After riding Shimano brakes for so long there are still moments where I am wowed by the extra control in situations that I instinctively expect jolty harsh braking but instead just smoothly roll through it.

Well, it sounds like Saints are not braking between the beginning and the end of the stroke, only lock up at the end and that's it, which is not the case at all.

 

[scottzg]

Well, I also appreciate the better bleed port and banjo placement and the finishing of my XTR 4-pot.
But concerning the braking power, I can tell you that Zee come almost always with cheapest non-finned organic pads, that are 40% worse than aftermarket Shimano original organic finned pads, not even comparing to sintered finned pads, which come stock on new 4-pot XT/XTR.
So this could be the difference.
And I assume you had exactly organic pads on your Zees, as you say that the initial bite is not as good as it was on Zees, which is normal, since organic pads have stronger initial bite, but fade much quicker and have less max braking power.

I saw no difference since I've upgraded from Saint sintered finned pads to XTR sintered finned pads.

I have a combined 20,000 miles on zee brakes, i'm >200lbs, and live in the mountains; i've run pretty much every pad there is.

 

[ocnLogan]

Well, it sounds like Saints are not braking between the beginning and the end of the stroke, only lock up at the end and that's it, which is not the case at all.

Again, I haven't ridden the Saints at all, so my opinion likely means nothing.

But the statement bolded above... does line up a lot with with many of the reviews I read on them.

I mean, obviously there is some braking between those two extremes, otherwise they'd be an unrideable mess, and no one would use them (Saints). I mean, IIRC, pinkbike had a review of them, where they said their modulation style had more in common with a lightswitch... And while funny, and a bit over the top,based on the comments it looked like a lot of people somewhat agreed with it (that people don't perceive them as having great modulation).

That said, it does sound like the newer 4 piston XT brakes are different, and Shimano has taken some steps to address that common complaint, so that is good.

I'd assume then, that the OP should perhaps be looking at 4 piston SLX if possible, if they're looking for a more budget offering, with more power than they currently have, but with more modulation than the XT/Saint/Zee?

 

[PuddleDuck]

Wanting to upgrade the Elixirs on my park basher DH bike. They do work ok but take a lot of attention and maintenance. I'm tired of it.

So I used Guide R's on the Trek Session 8 rental bikes at Trestle... twice... and they worked great and modulated well and never failed in two full days.

My personal bike, a Diamondback DB8, came with Zee componentry but the Elixir brakes. I was thinking that it might go well to just put Zee brakes on as well. But Shimanos have a reputation for poor modulation, acting like ON/OFF switches. The XT's on my enduro bike are like that. But compared to the Elixirs, they are reliable as the day is long.

The Zee's and the Guide R's are similar priced.

So since price is about the same, I'm interested in modulation and reliability, Guide R's versus Zee's.

What do you guys think?

-Peter

Hi Peter,

Here's some thorough reviews on the brakes you mentioned, and more.
- https://enduro-mtb.com/en/best-mtb-disc-brake-can-buy/
- https://www.vitalmtb.com/features/Vital-MTB-Face-Off-The-Best-DH-Brakes,2152

Best of luck!

 

[Groove_c]

It does sound like the newer 4 piston XT brakes are different, and Shimano has taken some steps to address that common complaint, so that is good.

I'd assume then, that the OP should perhaps be looking at 4 piston SLX if possible, if they're looking for a more budget offering, with more power than they currently have, but with more modulation than the XT/Saint/Zee?

Yes, indeed.
The Servo-Wave curve is now more linear than on <2019 levers.

+ current 4-pot SLX come stock with top of the line Shimano organic finned pads vs. Zee/XT M8020 that come with cheapest organic pads.

 

[Verttii]

For reference Guides have 2x14mm, and 2x16mm pistons. Saints/Zees have 2x15mm, and 2x17mm pistons. and Codes have 2x15mm, and 2x16mm pistons, so they're more similar to the Saints/Zees than the Guides are.

You can't really determine much from only comparing the caliper piston sizes of different brakes, it depends also what is the main piston(lever) diameter(ratio between surface area of main piston and caliper pistons defines the how much braking force). If all would have same main piston diameter, then you could compare almost directly. But just almost, because also the lever ratio plays a role on how much same amount of finger throw moves the caliper pistons and what is the force required. SRAM brakes have quite linear "lever ratio", but Shimano has the ServoWave, that makes the leverage ratio regressive; 1mm of lever move in the beginning moves piston more than 1mm of lever move in the later part, in the beginning part the piston moves a lot but force is small, on latter part piston move is small but force big.

Pads have also tremendous effect on braking feel and power...

For the OP; I'd go with Zee, or any recent Shimano 4pot brakes. They need very little maintenance and when you need to bleed those, it is easy procedure too. If they feel too grabby, you can always play with the pad material of different types a bit. Sintered pads can have quite strong initial bite, so swapping to resin might be good try, or you can combine putting resin to other side and sintered on the other(Minnaar trick)...

 

[Groove_c]

even trying the XTR lever with Saint caliper for the alleged "extra modulation" (there was none). I couldnt tell much of a difference with the Saint, it had more power but it was at the end of the curve that was rarely used in normal riding.

Were the XTR levers with a knob for lever reach adjustment?

 

[Groove_c]

@scottzg
It must be improved modulation and firmer lever, because of additional support part that make new 4-pot XT feel more powerful.

 

[ocnLogan]

You can't really determine much from only comparing the caliper piston sizes of different brakes, it depends also what is the main piston(lever) diameter(ratio between surface area of main piston and caliper pistons defines the how much braking force). If all would have same main piston diameter, then you could compare almost directly. But just almost, because also the lever ratio plays a role on how much same amount of finger throw moves the caliper pistons and what is the force required. SRAM brakes have quite linear "lever ratio", but Shimano has the ServoWave, that makes the leverage ratio regressive; 1mm of lever move in the beginning moves piston more than 1mm of lever move in the later part, in the beginning part the piston moves a lot but force is small, on latter part piston move is small but force big.

Pads have also tremendous effect on braking feel and power...

For the OP; I'd go with Zee, or any recent Shimano 4pot brakes. They need very little maintenance and when you need to bleed those, it is easy procedure too. If they feel too grabby, you can always play with the pad material of different types a bit. Sintered pads can have quite strong initial bite, so swapping to resin might be good try, or you can combine putting resin to other side and sintered on the other(Minnaar trick)...

Oh, I totally agree, on both points. Besides not being the only contributor of braking power, there is also the fact that outright power isn't the only thing to discuss (as evidenced by a bunch of posts about modulation so far this thread), makes discussing brakes by only piston size a bit hard to do. I was more attempting to communicate which brakes were of relatively similar "classes/categories".

The guide isn't really a "budget" version of the Code, but the Zee IS the budget version of the Saint. So the comparison isn't exactly fair/equal.

If I were the OP, I'd be going with Zee, New 4 pot SLX, or some of the other "more known for modulation" offerings like Formula/Magura/Quadiem/etc.

 

[pcrussell50]

Wow! This thread exploded. And I only got one email notification of a response. I’m going to go back and read it all.

Just so everyone knows, way back someone suggested the Zee’s and that Universal had them on sale for a great price. So I got them and installed them.

I can say this much... going from memory they are MUCH bigger than the Guide R’s I remember on the Session 8 rental bashers I rode at Trestle this summer. At the very least the size alone is a confidence booster as I weigh 200lbs.

One other thing that swayed me... an article reminded me about the water attracting nature of DOT 5.1 and the water repelling nature of mineral oil.

Anyway, off to read this huge thread now. Thanks again all.

-Peter

 

[scottzg]

Wow! This thread exploded. And I only got one email notification of a response. I'm going to go back and read it all.

Just so everyone knows, way back someone suggested the Zee's and that Universal had them on sale for a great price. So I got them and installed them.

I can say this much... going from memory they are MUCH bigger than the Guide R's I remember on the Session 8 rental bashers I rode at Trestle this summer. At the very least the size alone is a confidence booster as I weigh 200lbs.

One other thing that swayed me... an article reminded me about the water attracting nature of DOT 5.1 and the water repelling nature of mineral oil.

Anyway, off to read this huge thread now. Thanks again all.

-Peter

They're really good brakes. You'll be psyched. If you own zees and weigh 200lbs, changing brakes to anything else won't improve your ride experience. They're in a different class than guides.

I shittalked them a bit earlier in the thread. My first set of zees came with the nicer pads (finned, same as saint i think?) and they were amazing from the getgo. The second set came with different pads, sounds like groove_c knows exactly what, and they were an obvious step in the wrong direction. They were alright, though. I'd run them and then get something different. From a value perspective, truckerco pads have been my favorites, but the latest iteration of premium shimano have performed the best. Haven't tried trickstuff.

The zee levers can have the reach adjust added to them if you take out the blind ports and add screws. I did it with one of my sets, but didn't find the adjustment particularly useful. If you're a tiny-handed princess you might feel differently. Not judging.

The newest 4pot XT are unequivocally better, but it's a lot of refinement, not revolution. Not worth paying attention to once you own brakes.

I have >8 million feet of descending on zee brakes. I'm probably accidentally an expert. Too bad i wasn't paying closer attention.

 

[pcrussell50]

Based on the rest of the replies I wish I had bought 4-pot XTRs. Oh well. I have the Zees. And I’m not heartbroken about it. It is what it.

Thanks all.

-Peter

 

[Groove_c]

SLX 4-pot are same as XTR 4-pot.

Zee have same pistons and power is same as well, if you buy aftermarket Shimano original finned organic/sintered pads.
Zee just look bulkier and not so refined. That's it.

 

[pcrussell50]

BTW, the Zees I just got from Universal have finned pads. Not sure what to make of it.

 

[Groove_c]

Stock organic finned pads (H01A) are 20% worse than aftermarket Shimano organic finned pads (H03A).
Sometimes Zee come stock with sintered pads (H03C), which are highest quality Shimano has.
4-pot SLX come stock with highest quality organic finned pads.
4-pot XT/XTR come stock with highest quality sintered pads.

So once your stock pads will need to be replaced, buy H03A or H03C pads, to have same power as Saint/XTR.