[FrankS29]

Okay.. so what brand would need to make it for it to be "good"

For me, see post #38.

 

[2supple]

Interesting. I don't see many Cane Creek forks in the wild. Personally most of my Fox stuff has been good. Certainly isn't holding back my riding in any way.

 

[FrankS29]

Cane Creek suspension is criminally underrated.

Substantially better damping, better air spring (that doesn’t require you to buy new ones to change travel) and can be coil, from the factory.

Cherry on top, excellent customer service and support.

 

[2supple]

I don’t buy into the idea that one suspension brand is much better than the others. From my experience they all make good stuff it’s more about how you set it up.

But if USD forks allow things to stay better lubricated and have other ride quality advantages, it will be pretty cool to see a “step” in innovation, since MTB tech has been pretty incremental over the past five years.

 

[FrankS29]

I don’t buy into the idea that one suspension brand is much better than the others. From my experience they all make good stuff it’s more about how you set it up.

But if USD forks allow things to stay better lubricated and have other ride quality advantages, it will be pretty cool to see a “step” in innovation, since MTB tech has been pretty incremental over the past five years.

In general, Fox damping has been pretty behind. They have relied heavily on being lightweight and advertised as being “the best”.

They got away with flexy as hell XC and trail forks that loved to bind. Having dampers with essentially zero oil in them (because oil is heavy). Having shoddy assembly at the factory with under lubricated lowers when it came to oil and wipers, but a massive glob of equalizing port clogging, volume gobbling slick honey on the air spring. For YEARS AND YEARS NOW.

All while being at a top tier price point.

It’s to the point now that even PinkBike will callout how bad the new Grip X damper is in reviews.

To me, damping is incredibly important, and Fox seems to put it at the bottom of the “important” list when designing suspension. Being lightweight, having an ugly, and mismatched to even other Fox stuff, Gold treatment on stanchions seems to all they care about.

 

[2supple]

In general, Fox damping has been pretty behind. They have relied heavily on being lightweight and advertised as being “the best”.

They got away with flexy as hell XC and trail forks that loved to bind. Having dampers with essentially zero oil in them (because oil is heavy). Having shoddy assembly at the factory with under lubricated lowers when it came to oil and wipers, but a massive glob of equalizing port clogging, volume gobbling slick honey on the air spring. For YEARS AND YEARS NOW.

All while being at a top tier price point.

It’s to the point now that even PinkBike will callout how bad the new Grip X damper is in reviews.

To me, damping is incredibly important, and Fox seems to put it at the bottom of the “important” list when designing suspension. Being lightweight, having an ugly, and mismatched to even other Fox stuff, Gold treatment on stanchions seems to all they care about.

To clarify I’m talking about the 160+ travel category. Ive read a lot of reviews gushing over the latest Fox damper but I haven’t ridden it nor do I care to try when Grip X works just fine in my 38.

I live down the street from Yeti HQ and have had the luxury of being able to talk to their head of suspension who creates the tunes for all their bikes. He seemed to think VVC on the fox stuff works well.

 

[Blkdoutindustries]

In general, Fox damping has been pretty behind. They have relied heavily on being lightweight and advertised as being “the best”.

They got away with flexy as hell XC and trail forks that loved to bind. Having dampers with essentially zero oil in them (because oil is heavy). Having shoddy assembly at the factory with under lubricated lowers when it came to oil and wipers, but a massive glob of equalizing port clogging, volume gobbling slick honey on the air spring. For YEARS AND YEARS NOW.

All while being at a top tier price point.

It’s to the point now that even PinkBike will callout how bad the new Grip X damper is in reviews.

To me, damping is incredibly important, and Fox seems to put it at the bottom of the “important” list when designing suspension. Being lightweight, having an ugly, and mismatched to even other Fox stuff, Gold treatment on stanchions seems to all they care about.

That's why to me I'm only looking at the chassis side, whatever fork I get will get the avalanche treatment anyways so not worried on the damping side to be honest.

 

[Jayem]

That's why to me I'm only looking at the chassis side, whatever fork I get will get the avalanche treatment anyways so not worried on the damping side to be honest.

It’s simply that much better than what Fox, RS, Manitou or anyone else is doing…and easier to service too.

 

[2supple]

Interesting to see these types of comments when the guys winning our local enduro races are all either on 38s or Zebs. Usually not messing with the damper either and just getting a good service before a race. There’s some fast people on the front range. Charlie Murray won most of his EWS races on a stock Lyrik too. Can’t be that bad…

 

[Jayem]

Interesting to see these types of comments when the guys winning our local enduro races are all either on 38s or Zebs. Usually not messing with the damper either and just getting a good service before a race. There’s some fast people on the front range. Charlie Murray won most of his EWS races on a stock Lyrik too. Can’t be that bad…

Ive won races on Fox, doesnt mean it was good.

 

[2supple]

Ive won races on Fox, doesnt mean it was good.

but it isn’t just you… it’s like… everyone. They’re almost always on Fox or RS. And I’m not talking pro riders, I’m talking fast local guys who can pick anything and winning pro-am.

what is so much better that everyone is missing?

 

[Blkdoutindustries]

Interesting to see these types of comments when the guys winning our local enduro races are all either on 38s or Zebs. Usually not messing with the damper either and just getting a good service before a race. There’s some fast people on the front range. Charlie Murray won most of his EWS races on a stock Lyrik too. Can’t be that bad…

Those guys are fast regardless of gear though so not a fair comparison. The average guy needs all the help available and for my speed/weight/riding style a custom tune makes a huge difference imo plus with the open bath service is stupid easy

 

[2supple]

What specifically is so much better? An Avy cartridge? A cane creek helm?

I missed a podium by ten seconds. So please tell me what’s gonna get me there.

 

[FrankS29]

What specifically is so much better? An Avy cartridge? A cane creek helm?

I missed a podium by ten seconds. So please tell me what’s gonna get me there.

Maybe a Helm…

in all seriousness, back when I cared enough to time/track my efforts, my fastest times were always on heavier and more terrain appropriate suspension.

Always.

I tracked better, I braked later and I knew what my suspension was going to do. I simply forgot about my bike and rode the terrain.

With Fox, I always felt like I was fighting a spiking fork or concerned about Traction with a skittering and bouncing rear wheel…

Cane Creek doesn’t give me those issues.

They might be heavier, but I know for a fact I’m faster on them. 🤷‍♂️

 

[Blkdoutindustries]

What specifically is so much better? An Avy cartridge? A cane creek helm?

I missed a podium by ten seconds. So please tell me what’s gonna get me there.

To ME and it's my opinion an Avalanche damper is miles better than any of the OEM offerings, not even close if you ask me but I went down the custom tuned suspension rabbit hole a long time ago and there is no way I can go back to factory but to be fair I'm 145lbs so I fall outside the OEM target weight range. Also the fact that I don't need any special tool or complicated service procedures to service it is the cherry on top.

 

[2supple]

Makes a lot more sense if you're 145 lbs. I'm ~175 and have no issue with the range of the Grip X or the Charger 3.1 - I'll admit the charger 3.0 left something to be desired in the Zeb. But the 3.0 works really well in the Lyrik for some reason.

 

[FrankS29]

To ME and it's my opinion an Avalanche damper is miles better than any of the OEM offerings, not even close if you ask me but I went down the custom tuned suspension rabbit hole a long time ago and there is no way I can go back to factory but to be fair I'm 145lbs so I fall outside the OEM target weight range. Also the fact that I don't need any special tool or complicated service procedures to service it is the cherry on top.

Rider weight and terrain might one of the most important and overlooked parts of it.

Plain and simple, I’m not blasting down dirt sidewalks.

I’m picking my way through rock and root gardens most of the time.

And not “rock gardens” that are just rock sidewalks, instead of dirt sidewalks.

I’m also usually between 200-210lbs, so outside the target range as well.

Fox always did fine for me on more groomed and “jump line” style riding.

But natural terrain, it couldn’t keep up.

 

[2supple]

Maybe a Helm…

in all seriousness, back when I cared enough to time/track my efforts, my fastest times were always on heavier and more terrain appropriate suspension.

Always.

I tracked better, I braked later and I knew what my suspension was going to do. I simply forgot about my bike and rode the terrain.

With Fox, I always felt like I was fighting a spiking fork or concerned about Traction with a skittering and bouncing rear wheel…

Cane Creek doesn’t give me those issues.

They might be heavier, but I know for a fact I’m faster on them. 🤷‍♂️

You realize a Fox 38/Zeb fork chassis are heavier than a Helm, right?

 

[FrankS29]

You realize a Fox 38/Zeb fork chassis are heavier than a Helm, right?

Cool, did they somehow fix the crappy Fox damping with a larger chassis?

or just shoehorn a crap damper in a bigger chassis?

 

[2supple]

Cool, did they somehow fix the crappy Fox damping with a larger chassis?

or just shoehorn a crap damper in a bigger chassis?

Zero issues for me. I know two guys who are about 200 lbs and ride incredibly quick on them. One of them is one of the better riders in Colorado, races a lot. I did get bushing play on one of my 38s - sent to fox and got it back within a week and a fresh service.

Met another guy whose on one of the local race teams last year, who kept saying how much he loved the original Grip (not grip x) damper in the 38 - said it was a killer deal for a fork you can often find for ~400 bucks on pinkbike. I haven't ridden the regular Grip in the 38. Loam wolf wont stop raving about the new grip x2 but I don't put a ton of stock into online reviews anymore.