Plenty of runs at Angel Fire that will beat up your hands as much as ANY trail. Then try doing it for a full day.

 

Cool.

Doesn’t change the fact that traversing and climbing on your own, for hours, is completely different than lift assist.

Completely. Different.

I distinctly remember the first time I ever shuttled to a descent. I remember feeling how weird it was to be fresh when I was about to descend.

It was pretty weird.

 

I'm saying it's a pretty big jump to go from mentioning a park day to then assuming that person only rides park. Maybe ask what type of riding they do before you assume you know what they do and don't ride.

 

I can only go off what you offer up.

You offered up a park day as your “torture test”.

Sorry if I didn’t respond the way you wanted me to.

 

This thread is surprisingly civil and on-topic considering it’s about a USD fork

 

I think it ceased being a thread about USD a page or two back 🤣
I've already got a USD fork.

 

Most people don’t know what performs well and doesn’t when it comes to suspension. However once you know you can’t go backwards.

The other issue that clouds everything is:

1) They argue for what they have.
2) They argue for what they can afford.

 

people use way too much hyperbole on forums. “Brand X feels way better than brand Y”, or “brand X sucks and their damper is ****”.

Reality is
1) most people don’t have their suspension setup well
2) as long as you’re in a normal weight range; a Fox 38/36 or Zeb/Lyrik is not holding you back from anything
3) people love to hate on the big brands

 

people use way too much hyperbole on forums. “Brand X feels way better than brand Y”, or “brand X sucks and their damper is ****”.

Reality is
1) most people don’t have their suspension setup well
2) as long as you’re in a normal weight range; a Fox 38/36 or Zeb/Lyrik is not holding you back from anything
3) people love to hate on the big brands

This is idiotic, sorry. Fox totally screwed the vvc damping a few gens ago for no good reason, with literally no compression damping. There are many examples of this where they totally screwed the pooch on products. Blind devotion is dumb.

 

I know people that like specialized.

 

And? Specialized isn’t Fox.

 

Back on topic...

Apparently this Fox prototype has two air valves (top/bottom of the air spring) - dual chamber setup would be a big departure from the current 38 air spring which is interesting.

 

Just calling a spade a spade. No ties to industry. As I've said, both Fox and RS make some very good suspension products at the moment. All companies have issues (including Cane Creek, who almost went bankrupt less then a decade ago for a botched launch) but generally Fox has taken care of me if there was an issue. Frankly it's frustrating to see people so easily proclaim X brand is way better when it's sheer bullsh*t.

 

Thanks for answering my question.

 

I think you’re over generalizing. The original grip damper has been working well for a lot of people for a long time. It sounds like you mentioned weighing a bit less so after market stuff might be a better fit for you. But it’s not just Fox/RS, look at what is available with the Manitou after market revalve kits… why do you think they offer those? Because people want custom stuff. That’s fine but doesn’t mean Fox or RS damper is bad.

RS is now offering proprietary revalve kits with the charger 3.1 too.

Like I said, Charlie Murray was winning EDR world cups on a stock Lyrik with a charger 3.

 

What's amazing is how I started off saying most modern brands make good stuff and none of it will hold you back. Then other people say, "Manitou/Cane Creek is the best".. and then I get called a Fox shill even though I've repeatedly said I currently ride more Rockshox stuff.

People need to learn to fucking read.

 

I’m honestly trying to have a reasonable conversation about this stuff.

But you’re making it difficult.

You’re coming off as a Fox shill because you’re defensive if someone says they don’t like their stuff, and many people here have given very specific and legitimate reason that they don’t.

Then you’re claiming people are too hyperbolic, yet you’re putting words in others mouths and making it seem dramatic. Please point to one instance that I said “Cane Creek is the best”.

At most I said I found it to grab my attention more than the Fox release and that I find that Cane Creek’s suspension works better for me.

Trust me, I’m under no illusion that Cane Creek is “the best”. I’m sure some sweet, fully custom stuff out there would blow my dick off, but I allow myself to afford Cane Creek and their stuff makes me happy.

I can admit, looking back on some posts, I probably came off snarky…

That’s on me. But I actually do want to have a reasonable conversation about this stuff. 🤷‍♂️

 

Like I said, "I’m sure a lot of them custom tune. Doesn’t mean Rockshox or Fox make a bad product."

And the fact that a pro chooses to race the stock lyrik damper (when he could run anything), and is winning on it.... beating every other pro whose on the same level of training...should count for something.

 

Like I said, "I’m sure a lot of them custom tune. Doesn’t mean Rockshox or Fox make a bad product."

And the fact that a pro chooses to race the stock lyrik damper (when he could run anything), and is winning on it.... beating every other pro whose on the same level of training...should count for something.

I don't actually many pro's actually get that much say over what they get to run. A few, absolutely, but the bulk I'd say not a chance.

 

I don’t think you understand. Generally pros have suspension camps before each season, and tuners provided by the suspension company will custom tune the damper if needed (usually using data acquisition). I know Richie uses custom tunes. But Charlie was winning on the stock tune. Point is the current gen stock Lyrik is badass.

Over five years ago on the old Lyrik (before the Zeb was out) people didn’t like the stock airspring. It was commonly known their factory riders ran luftkappes because they knew it was better. Don’t know of modern examples of this with a fork, but goes to show that if there’s something aftermarket that is better, pros will use it, as long as nobody can see it.

Someone will probably accuse me of being a Rockshox rep now for saying the current Lyrik is good.

 

But it's also impossible to really prove. If I take a single shim out am I now no longer on stock suspension?

I have no doubt the big teams do camps, and small teams will do something similar. But if I was a decent amateur and someone handed me a 40 or Boxxer and said just come and see us in the tent each race, I'd probably drop my Dorado/Öhlins etc in a heart beat.

I think the point everyone is making is that the big two have churned out some rubbish. There's no getting around that. The fact there are so many of them on the race circuit is likely because of Foxshox probably being on 95% of OEM bikes?

 

Well, then you have to ask, if a tune is good for a pro to be ripping Mach 25 down a race course, is that actually what the general public needs, and should be buying?

Does that make sense for the general public and the speeds ridden by us?

To play devils advocate, wouldn’t it make more sense to make a damper perform great for the average rider and then custom tune race stuff?


Honda makes F1 engines, those engines don’t get slapped into a CRV.

For me, saying someone is winning a race on something, isn’t the exclamation of proof that people think it is.

 

Again, we've already been over this - tons of non sponsored riders on the national circuit choose whatever gives them the best edge, and they overwhelmingly pick Fox/RS/Ohlins. Go watch Vital raw clips. This info isn't a secret its available online for anyone to see.

 

I don't watch any national racing. Only World Cup.
How many national circuit riders are on full kit contracts?!?

 

Not as many as you’d think. You can tell pretty easily by what they’re wearing dude.

 

I'm confused. I thought you were suggesting pros can run what they want. I'm sure they can get a damper tweaked a bit.
But there's no way they are running a different fork brand unless they are at the very very top.

I will go back and reread.

 

What I do wonder is how a USD forks thread turns into a discussion of what and if pros run custom tuned dampers.

My friend who’s national Enduro champ off the couch and can finish top20-30 in dh wcs does not care in the slightest what’s inside the right and/or left stanchion. He’ll smoke me regardless of me riding my avalanche cartridge or not.

The majority of us here are not near pros speed, and while that doesn’t mean we can’t care about custom tuned stuff, the reality is pros ride what they’re given at crazy speeds. If they’re offered an upgrade, they’ll try it. If they’re scheduled a tuning camp, they’ll have to go. If they’re extremely uncomfortable on the bike, they’ll let the team know. But other than that, they’re not really chasing products to justify results. They just ride whatever they end up with, at crazy speeds for us mere mortals.

Now back to those spaghetti usd tubes 🤣

 

Interestingly, I was expecting the 9.1 to not have the greatest steering precision due to the natural flaws in the usd design. I was completely wrong and blown away by its ability to stay on the line. It actually makes you realize how much a traditional fork deflects and binds up in high load situations. Most of the negative bias towards USD forks is preconceived based on the shiver.

No idea if the Push chassis is just that well tuned and these Fox and cane creek USD forks will be more like the shiver, or there is just enough progress in design technology to overcome the flaws . The crown/upper leg interface on the Fox/CC forks at sea other look pressed into smallish crowns which is has me skeptical compared to the large overlap and bonded method of the Push fork.

Either way, the Internet chatter always instantly going to the wet noodle analogy is a little over stated. I'm curious to see where we end up in a few years

 

@topic: will these stay a prototype or is it confirmed they're putting these in production?

 

A couple people claimed it’ll be available in June on Vital

 

Most important- what ebike will this be best on?

 

I don’t think you understand. Generally pros have suspension camps before each season, and tuners provided by the suspension company will custom tune the damper if needed (usually using data acquisition). I know Richie uses custom tunes. But Charlie was winning on the stock tune. Point is the current gen stock Lyrik is badass.

Over five years ago on the old Lyrik (before the Zeb was out) people didn’t like the stock airspring. It was commonly known their factory riders ran luftkappes because they knew it was better. Don’t know of modern examples of this with a fork, but goes to show that if there’s something aftermarket that is better, pros will use it, as long as nobody can see it.

Someone will probably accuse me of being a Rockshox rep now for saying the current Lyrik is good.

Lol

This might be the most idiotic take I've heard in a long time... So because I'm not an EWS/DH athlete I shouldn't expect my suspension to work correctly?

That’s the thing, most pros are riding the same stock stuff you are with the exception of the very top riders. Your average national level pro or privateer World Cup rider are not getting custom anything and they can make it work.

There are of course exceptions, but suspension today is so good, with an incredible amount of adjustments, you have to want something way outside of normal tuning for any given fork or shock to not work well.

 

How has this thread just divulged into people arguing over the simple concept of “stock suspension is good, custom tuned suspension
is better.” It’s like a suit, sure off-the-rack is fine, and for some people it’ll even be pretty good. But it’s never going to beat a made-to-measure option that’s tailored for you personally. Do you need it? No, but is sure is nice. Stock stuff these days is good, but it’s by no means perfect, and there are some great aftermarket options to improve things. The best you know is only the best you’ve experienced. And having options is fanatastic.

Talk to the actual fast riders who run stock suspension, ask them if it feels perfect and exactly how they wish it felt. The ones I know tend to just run things very stiff so they have support, but it’s certainly not comfortable. Fast isn’t always about the perfect setup, it’s about being able to commit and hold on.

 

I think the weight of the new USD Fox fork is what a lot of people are going to be looking at, at least it will be for me. It also makes me wonder if Push is going to be cooking up an air spring for their 9.1 or if they're just going to commit to the coil. Judging their shock line up, I don't see Push reacting much to this launch other than maybe a price reduction. I think Push will be happy just doing what they do, not competing with the big two. Heck, they'll probably launch a coil kit for the Fox USD haha.

And man...my band new Canyon Spectral CF8 CCLTV is 35lbs. I don't want to add weight . I want it to be lighter.

Edit: I got to talk to Bryson Martin with DVO about the USD stuff at Sea Otter and it was interesting to hear him say that USD is outright better. He said DVO is cooking something up. I really want to demo a USD now haha.

 

I think the weight of the new USD Fox fork is what a lot of people are going to be looking at, at least it will be for me.

Weight weenieism aside, weight is still important. We have to pedal these things uphill, lift the front wheel over things etc. That's where USD is always going to struggle. Don't get me wrong, I love the concept, had three Shiver SCs which to be fair weren't a great fork. But if the weight creeps up then dual crown forks start to come into the picture and something that probably should have been considered a few mm ago in terms of travel.

 

If the Push fork weighs 2790 grams on coil, you would think the new USD fork will be similar weight to a current Zeb/Lyrik with an air spring.

 

Unless you weigh 140lbs soaking wet, leave the HSC open on a Fox fork and you'd be fine. If you're still having issues, it's not the fork.

Im saying at your weight you don’t need a retune on a modern fox fork. Stop twisting words.

Perhaps you meant 240lbs. Running HSC wide open surely means you need the compression reduced.

I'm lucky in terms of weight I'm generally in the middle of most manufacturers' ranges. However my preference is generally less damping than stock.

 

No… 140lbs may need less HSC.
Less =Open, More =Closed

 

So to be clear at my weight you said leave HSC open. At less weight, even more open? Right got it. Useful.