well thats piqued my interest :thumbsup:
any images of other bikes you've built?

 

Keep em coming! Im really interested as well. Just ignore the trolls, and build that swEet rig


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

Hey,

Thanks for the positive feedback!

Unfortunately, I don't really have any pictures of the other builds I've done besides my daily commuter. It's a 2005 Rocky Mountain Flow FS with a Bafang BBS02; nothing really special but, with over 4500 miles on the kit, I'm pretty happy. I can tell it needs another rebuild for some fresh grease, so I'll probably start another thread for that soon, and take some pictures of the bike. I know there are quite a few Bafang owners out there, so hopefully they'll find that maintenance thread helpful; although there is quite a bit of information already out there.

 

Disassembly

My first order of business was to completely strip the entire thing down to the last bolt. I've set the wheels and fork aside for a later date. There were multiple times I felt like using anti-seize spray for all the dirt and rust build up (but that would have been ridiculous). I can only imagine how much 'fun' it's going to be cleaning everything with degreaser, and removing all the rust on the thread and bolt heads with a media tumbler.

So far, the headset cups should be just fine, and the Raceface X-type bottom bracket is in pretty good condition, with just some minor external blemishes. Hopefully the bottom bracket will work with the motor assembly, but we'll see. I'll definitely order all new frame bearings, but there are still a few bearings in here that just need to be refurbished. I'm getting everything ready for powder coating, and I decided to go with a gun metal gray color that's not completely matte, but not really glossy either. I also want to get the shock lowers powder coated with the frame to really tie everything up.

My goal is to get everything cleaned up, as everything gets powder coated, so I can just jump right into assembly mode. Below are some of the pics I took of the disassembly.

Also, my apologies for the mess in the background, and the poor lighting. I'm still converting the space, so I hope to have new lights installed and everything organized a lot better soon.

More updates soon...

 

Nice! Looking forward to the assembly. How are you planning on doing the cable routing? Internal would be nice but it'll be tricky.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

Thanks!

To be honest, I haven't really decided how to do the routing. In this particular case, I'll have the regular shifter cable and brake line to route, plus like 10 wires going between the motor, controller, display, and battery.

So far, these are my thoughts, but let me know if I'm off on anything.

Dirty routing:
The simplest, ugliest, and least safe method. I can just use a combination of tape, zip ties, and different kinds of wiring looms to run along the frame. Aside from probably looking kind of hideous, everything will be exposed to the elements. I'll probably avoid this at all costs haha.

Internal routing:
I love the idea of internal routing! It's such a clean look and feel, but given the amount of wiring there will be (probably 1 inch in diameter worth of wires and cables), I'm not sure if it's realistic. I could design and 3D print custom grommets for the various wires and lines, but I feel that it would compromise the structural integrity of the frame, making that large of openings. Again, I could be wrong...

Custom housing:
This is probably the goldilocks solution. It'll add a bit more bulk to the frame, but it should still have a clean look, protect all the wires and cables, and allow for easy setup and maintenance. I'll try to design as low profile of a housing as I can, and run everything up the underside of the down tube between the bottom brack/motor, and the head tube.

I'm open to suggestions, and I'll post the pictures of the motor and all of the electronics when they come in.

 

I've done a bit of car audio installs in the past, and highly recommend using braided expandable wire sleeves. Those sleeves will protect the wires from abrasions, plus they look better than the usual wire looms.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

You got my attention, cool build

 

Thank for the advice Pinoy!

I'll still probably go with the custom downtube cover for the wiring along the frame, but the braided expandable wire sleeves would be perfect for the high amperage cable for the battery pack. I really want to go with a backpack battery pack for this build, and from what I've seen the best solution is to have the connector go from the backpack, down the rider's arm, and connect by the handlebar grip. This supposedly provides more flexibility for getting on and off the bike.

 

So I started to clean up all of the parts, while the frame and lowers are getting powder coated. Nothing like a little degreaser, media tumbler, and a good of old fashioned toothbrush. I took some pictures of some of the pieces already cleaned up, and some other ones as a side-by-side comparison. I'll be honest, I'm particularly impressed with how the bearings turned out given their original state. Even though I bought new ones, I feel that I was really able to refurbish at least 60% of them.

Otherwise, not much to mention here, I just can't wait for everything to be powder coated. I also want to mention I ordered a 3kW Cyclone Drive and a Cycle Analyst with some goodies that should hopefully be at my doorstep soon.

Powder coated frame coming soon...

 

...I ordered a 3kW Cyclone Drive and a Cycle Analyst with some goodies that should hopefully be at my doorstep soon.

I am curious as to what you are going to use for drivetrain with that.

 

I'm curious about sudden dismounts with you arm wired to the bike!

 

While I like to idea of moving the battery from the frame to the backpack...8 pounds off the bike will definitely make a huge improvement. But that battery cable connection is a bit of concern when you need to bail.

You may want to look into some quick connect/disconnect adaptors like these:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0051PLP3U?psc=1

You may need to mod it a bit to make it work as desired.

 

I am curious as to what you are going to use for drivetrain with that.

I've been thinking about this for a while, and there are just so many different option to consider. This is basically how I broke it down.

Hub Transmission:
I particularly like this option because the gearing is enclosed, and I can use a belt drive. With this much power though, I know the Nuvinci hub seals will just rip apart. I've seen videos where they just break open, and leave guys stranded with only 750 watt motors. This leaves the Rohloff and Shimano's Alfine as the only options. The Rohloff is really cool, but insanely expensive for my taste. If I go this route, It'll probably be the Alfine 11 with the electronic shifting. I'm not too concerned with adding the additional unsprung weight to be honest.

Mid drive Transmission:
I also really like the idea of a mid-drive transmission, but I don't see this as an option for this build. Currently, I would only consider a Pinion gearbox, but they are extremely difficult to get separately (basically impossible), and I would realistically need to build a frame around it.

Standard Drivetrain:
As far as I know, the only truly dedicated setup for ebikes is SRAM's EX1. I really like it, but at that price point, I feel that I would rather opt for the Alfine 11. The only issue I see with going with a standard Shimano XT drivetrain, or SRAM Eagle, is the gear banging, chain breaking, and chain slipping. In my current experience, I feel that everything is manageable, with the gear banging being the hardest to deal with. One of the goodies I mentioned earlier that is coming with the Cycle Analyst I ordered is a shifter motor cut-off switch. I'm curious to find out if this will allow me to reliably use a standard cassette.

In conclusion, I'm going to try out a standard 10 speed XT drivetrain setup with a clutch type derailleur, and a narrow-wide front chain ring (for the chain slipping), with the shifter cable running through the cut-off switch (for the gear banging). The only issue left would be the chain snapping, and I believe that could be resolved with a little bit of firmware tweaking on the Cycle Analyst.

 

I've been thinking about this for a while, and there are just so many different option to consider. This is basically how I broke it down.

Hub Transmission:
I particularly like this option because the gearing is enclosed, and I can use a belt drive. With this much power though, I know the Nuvinci hub seals will just rip apart. I've seen videos where they just break open, and leave guys stranded with only 750 watt motors. This leaves the Rohloff and Shimano's Alfine as the only options. The Rohloff is really cool, but insanely expensive for my taste. If I go this route, It'll probably be the Alfine 11 with the electronic shifting. I'm not too concerned with adding the additional unsprung weight to be honest.

If you can find one, Nuvinci N171 has a good reputation for strength and would probably hold up pretty well, but at 3.85_kg (8.47_lb) bare it does seem to emphasize the heavy in heavy duty.

Rohloff is not just expensive, but also has a lot of gear ranges, arguably too many. And you still have to be cognizant of the input torque limit.

Alfine seems lightly constructed, probably OK for the intended use, but is not something I would want in a hub drive application in a high power eMTB as it sees too much torque at the input.

https://electricbike-blog.com/2016/03/09/kicking-it-old-school-with-a-nuvinci-n171-at-2400-watts/

Mid drive Transmission:
I also really like the idea of a mid-drive transmission, but I don't see this as an option for this build. Currently, I would only consider a Pinion gearbox, but they are extremely difficult to get separately (basically impossible), and I would realistically need to build a frame around it.

Some have used an Alfine hub as an over-driven (reduces input torque) mid-drive gearbox, but that is too much development effort for one-off applications.

Standard Drivetrain:
As far as I know, the only truly dedicated setup for ebikes is SRAM's EX1. I really like it, but at that price point, I feel that I would rather opt for the Alfine 11. The only issue I see with going with a standard Shimano XT drivetrain, or SRAM Eagle, is the gear banging, chain breaking, and chain slipping. In my current experience, I feel that everything is manageable, with the gear banging being the hardest to deal with. One of the goodies I mentioned earlier that is coming with the Cycle Analyst I ordered is a shifter motor cut-off switch. I'm curious to find out if this will allow me to reliably use a standard cassette.

That SRAM EX1 looks very interesting to me. Not sure how well executed it is, but the stated design intent seems spot on.

In conclusion, I'm going to try out a standard 10 speed XT drivetrain setup with a clutch type derailleur, and a narrow-wide front chain ring (for the chain slipping), with the shifter cable running through the cut-off switch (for the gear banging). The only issue left would be the chain snapping, and I believe that could be resolved with a little bit of firmware tweaking on the Cycle Analyst.

EX1 gets you an 11-48t cassette made from tool steel, a stronger chain, and well behaved shifting in both directions under full load, no need to cut power either to shift down or to shift up. But it is expensive, and maybe not worth the extra money.

I have no direct experience with the EX1 and have not read any anecdotal reports that include any long-term use, so I do not know how well executed the design engineering and product development are in actuality in this. If it really does deliver on the promise of improved performance and reliability, both, then that would be worth the extra cost to me.

 

Thanks for that connector link Pinoy!

This is my first personal foray into backpack battery packs, and there are several safety concerns in the back of my mind that I’m trying to fine tune. In regards to the connector, I was just going to have an Anderson connector, or even the one Pinoy linked above. I would just need to make sure it’s weather proof, and isn’t lockable, but still snug enough to not just fall out due to vibrations, and possibly very light tugs. They way I imagine it, is that the connection will occur on the handlebar, with the female housing firmly attached to the handlebar. The male end will come off of the wrist just enough to provide leeway, but not possibly get tangled with anything. I imagine a few Velcro straps between where the cable comes out of the backpack through the camelback water pouch hose outlet, and the wrist, it shouldn’t really get tangled in anything either. Even if it does, that’s why I feel it’s important to not have the connection point lockable. I might even make a second set of connectors inside of the backpack as well to allow the cable to disconnect from the battery if necessary without damaging the battery pack.

 

If I may I have lots of time on my e bike riding trails this also means some good crashes ,You do not want to be riding with the battery in a back pack .Try thinking about putting it on the down tube that's about the only place I can see on your frame . I found the Anderson connectors not that great but they are crimped on and if you use them in a back pack you will see what I mean . Your Battery will wt 14 lbs and cost over $800 not something you want on your back when going over the bars . I am a little concerned that for your first e build you are using the cylone its very powerful and not for novice buliders so good luck keep us posted

 

Unless you are looking for near 125cc MX performance, why do you need 11 gears with 3000w? And if that's what you are into, why are you here at a bicycle forum? I am building a FS fat bike with 3000+ watts (88v @ 45/50amps), but it is for OHV areas only and I would never post about it here as it is totally irrelevant.

BTW I am using a Sturmey Archer 3-speed hub on my build to prevent grinding the hub internals into dust.

 

Unless you are looking for near 125cc MX performance, why do you need 11 gears with 3000w? And if that's what you are into, why are you here at a bicycle forum? I am building a FS fat bike with 3000+ watts (88v @ 45/50amps), but it is for OHV areas only and I would never post about it here as it is totally irrelevant.

BTW I am using a Sturmey Archer 3-speed hub on my build to prevent grinding the hub internals into dust.

3kw is just a nominal rating for the electric motor, and would be associated with a low duty cycle. That motor is not capable of dissipating heat associated with 3kw continuous. It is capable of briefly sustaining 3kw power crests, and continuous output would be a fraction of that.

Also it is useful to have more than several gear ranges to optimize performance and extend range. Rather than power, current through the windings is more closely associated with heat. Within usable operating rpm range, for the same power output it will draw less current and generate less heat at higher revs but is also less efficient at higher revs, and will draw more current and generate more heat at lower revs but is also more efficient at lower revs. A choice among usable gear ranges allow one to balance these considerations.

 

Again, at a "nominal 3000w rating" this motor is 4 times more powerful than is legally permitted for an ebike motor in the United States: 750w is the limit....... BTW, the Luna page selling this motor is covered with warnings that this motor is not street legal and if it is not street legal it is not trail legal either as far a multi use trails go. i.e. It is not a bicycle if it is over 750w.

According to the Luna Cycle site electric bike.com the Cyclone is designed to handle far more power than its nominal rating of 3000w with a 40amp controller. This strongly suggests that the 3000w rating is a continuous rating not a momentary one. The builder could always run a 36v battery and reprogram the controller to 20amps or a 52v battery at 15 amps, but why? If the intent is to build a trail legal ebike a 15a BBS02 would serve the same purpose, even a BBSHD at a nominal 750w would do the job.

Irregardless of how this machine is ridden it will never be legal on any bike trail in America, however I would love to meet up with the builder at an OHV area and compare eMX bikes once mine is finished.

 

Again, at a "nominal 3000w rating" this motor is 4 times more powerful than is legally permitted for an ebike motor in the United States: 750w is the limit....... BTW, the Luna page selling this motor is covered with warnings that this motor is not street legal and if it is not street legal it is not trail legal either as far a multi use trails go. i.e. It is not a bicycle if it is over 750w.

Derate it for continuous use. If it can sustain 750, and if you want to limit it to 750W, then program the controller to limit it to 750W, and you will have a 750W ebike. It really is as simple as that. If regulations in the jurisdiction in which you operate impose a 750W limit on your ebike, and that depends very much on where you live and where you will use this, then attach a rating plate that states the 750W power limit to make the bike comply with the regs.

According to the Luna Cycle site electric bike.com the Cyclone is designed to handle far more power than its nominal rating of 3000w with a 40amp controller. This strongly suggests that the 3000w rating is a continuous rating not a momentary one. The builder could always run a 36v battery and reprogram the controller to 20amps or a 52v battery at 15 amps, but why? If the intent is to build a trail legal ebike a 15a BBS02 would serve the same purpose, even a BBSHD at a nominal 750w would do the job.

That merely indicates that Luna offers a controller that enables you to input higher power levels into the motor for shorter crest durations. I would not draw any inference from that about sustained output power level.

Irregardless of how this machine is ridden it will never be legal on any bike trail in America, however I would love to meet up with the builder at an OHV area and compare eMX bikes once mine is finished.

That seems false to me because it presumes that there is some U.S. Federal law or regulaton that limits power on eMTBs in use on all trails everywhere, federal land, state land in all states, territorial land in all territories, district land in D.C., indian reservations, private land in all states and territories, many different jurisdictions.

FTC has some regulations for bikes sold at retail, but that does not apply to something that you assemble for your own use.

I will believe you only if you provide a link to a real authoritative source such as a government website showing that U.S. Federal law or regulation, else I think it is just more false fabricated disinformation that is being promulgated on this subject.

 

Try thinking about putting it on the down tube that's about the only place I can see on your frame . I found the Anderson connectors not that great but they are crimped on and if you use them in a back pack you will see what I mean . Your Battery will wt 14 lbs and cost over $800 not something you want on your back when going over the bars . I am a little concerned that for your first e build you are using the cylone its very powerful and not for novice buliders so good luck keep us posted

Thanks for the feedback! I've given down tube mounting some consideration on this one, but unfortunately, even a regular dolphin pack isn't going to fit on this frame (at least not within the triangle). I don't really want to mount it underneath either, just because I've done dual dolphin packs an a couple different builds, and the one underneath has always ended up sustaining some damage, particularly when I bottom out. With that said, I have been wanting to build a custom enclosure for a bike to do a bottom mount, but I figured I would give a backpack battery pack a try first. I've seen others do it on ES, and they have said they've had some pretty bad crashes, but with enough padding, the battery never got damaged. As for the weight and price of the battery, that's about what I would be expecting considering the cells I'm using, depending on the total Amp hours, but since I'm building the battery pack myself, my cost is substantially lower than $800. Also, you may have missed it in previous posts, and probably inferred it from this one, this is not first rodeo with custom builds (although it is my first Cyclone). I'm slowly progressing with the build, so I appreciate the support and will have more soon.

 

If you can find one, Nuvinci N171 has a good reputation for strength and would probably hold up pretty well, but at 3.85_kg (8.47_lb) bare it does seem to emphasize the heavy in heavy duty.

I honestly totally forgot about this thing. Yeah, if it didn't weigh over 8lbs, it might be worth considering. I mean, even if it's mounted in a mid-frame gearbox configuration, as opposed to 8lbs of unsprung weight on that poor rim and shock, that's still 8lbs lol.

Overall, I agree with your line of thinking on the different options.

I have no direct experience with the EX1 and have not read any anecdotal reports that include any long-term use, so I do not know how well executed the design engineering and product development are in actuality in this. If it really does deliver on the promise of improved performance and reliability, both, then that would be worth the extra cost to me.

You've definitely polished up some good points with the EX1, and I think I'll just go with a standard drivetrain for now with the motor cutoff for the shifter, and tuning the software for the ramp up, and go from there (about a $200 setup). It's been bulletproof with my 750w BBS02, so I'll see how this works out. If not, I'll just man up, and cash out on the EX1. I actually really want to put it through its paces.

 

Unless you are looking for near 125cc MX performance, why do you need 11 gears with 3000w? And if that's what you are into, why are you here at a bicycle forum? I am building a FS fat bike with 3000+ watts (88v @ 45/50amps), but it is for OHV areas only and I would never post about it here as it is totally irrelevant.

Hey WoodlandHills,

You bring up some valid points. I have never ridden dirt bikes, or any kind of motorcycles for that matter, so I can't really say what 125cc MX performance feels like. Nonetheless, I get your point.

What I'm really looking for is a hybrid, but not in the conventional sense of road/mountain. I enjoy commuting on my bike, and typically commuters ride something rigid to get the most out of their pedaling. Electric bikes have changed that, and made commuting on a full suspension all mountain bike practical. That's what I currently do with my Rocky Mountain Flow FS. It has a 750w BBS02 with Schwalbe Crazy Bobs, and I love it. I also enjoy using it for trail riding, so I just have a second set of wheels ready to go. I am perfectly content with the 750w motor for all the trail riding I do, and I rarely even use all the power because I'm usually only in level 1/2 assist mode anyways.

So why the 3k and how is this a bicycle? Well basically, it's when I'm on the streets I'm constantly looking for more power. You're right, a 3kw motor would automatically make this not an eBike by California law. Fortunately, we have the ability to limit this power using the controller. The way I see it, I figured for the price point of the Cyclone kit, it would cost me more to put any of the Bafang drives on this. On the other hand, if I want to, I can register it in the future with the DMV, and possibly make it a street legal motorcycle (not highway), legally utilizing all of the power. So as long as I'm keeping the power at 750w, I'm perfectly within the realm of calling this an eMTB (which I use 65% on the road), and have reason to post here IMO.

I just thought maybe there are others who would also like to have a universal build for a FS ebike for the streets(<750w), eMTB for the trails (<750w), and a DMV registered bike (>750w). I'm not sure what the laws are regarding MX, but I guess you can include that as well. Worse comes to worse, I can revert back to one of the Bafang kits, and go from there. We'll see how the build progresses. I'm very respectable of everybody around, and particularly the laws, so if it becomes an issue, I'll adapt.

BTW I am using a Sturmey Archer 3-speed hub on my build to prevent grinding the hub internals into dust.

Thanks for the info btw! That Archer was not on my radar, so I'll definitely look into it.

 

BTW I am using a Sturmey Archer 3-speed hub on my build to prevent grinding the hub internals into dust.

That Archer was not on my radar, so I'll definitely look into it.

The three speed Sturmey Archer has a strong second gear, but a not so strong first gear. Be careful of overloading the input with excessive torque.

 

however I would love to meet up with the builder at an OHV area and compare eMX bikes once mine is finished.

I would definitely be down. I've been interested in FS eMTB fat bikes for a while. I don't know where you ride, but I'm in the San Francisco Bay Area.

Btw, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR NOT OUTRIGHT TURNING THIS INTO A TRAIL ACCESS SHARK TANK POST! There are way too many threads on here that have turned into that, and they are just becoming way too nasty to follow. I'm just trying to document a build, and hope others find it interesting.

 

ebs, I almost built a Cyclone for private property use, but didn't want to mess around trying to get a straight chainline. Please let us know how that works out for you. I noticed than Luna is selling a "bike" with that motor, but has machined new brackets for it. Also, I've had good luck just running three gears 11-17-28, 8-speed spacing, with my BBS02 since my chainline is basically always straight. Something like that might work for you.

 

I love my Rohloff, AND all the gear choices it offers. I thrash it, with a BBSHD, and at close to 2000 miles its all good. Other then the price (something I forgot about as soon as I paid for it, it's ancient history now) it is the gold standard, anything less is.......less. Diss it for its cost, don't diss it for its widest gearing range out there is my point. Cool build.

 

Could be totally wrong, but I thought it was possible to fashion a backpack battery and have the connection be magnetic so that it would release in a crash or whatever. Not my preference so I didn't pursue.

 

Yeah, I hope the chain line doesn't become a problem for me either, and we'll see how drivetrain plays out. I've never had problems with my BBS02 either, especially when I went with a clutch type derailleur and a narrow wide chain ring.

I noticed than Luna is selling a "bike" with that motor, but has machined new brackets for it.

I didn't know they sold a bike a with this motor on it, and when you mentioned it, I went to look for it, but couldn't seem to find it. Could you please provide me with a link. I'm very interested to see that custom bracket they made.