[Send-It]

Watch this everyone and all questions will be answered.

 

[maxtorque]

So if you look at his feet you'll notice they're level to the ground. This is because he has roughly equal weight on each pedal. If you articulate/lean the bike under you and keep equal weight on the pedals your outside foot will drop relative to the bike but your feet will still be level relative to the ground. As you start to lean the bike under you it becomes really hard (impossible at some point) to not drop the outside foot. The reason they teach pedals level in berms is because you're generally not leaning the bike under you. The bike is perpendicular to the surface of the berm and your pedals again end up level to the surface you're on.

Pedals level vs foot dropped should not really be an argument. The issue is when someone is dogmatic about it, where they say you do it this way every time. If you watch good coaches like Lawton and Cathro you'll start to realize footwork is a fluid tool not set positions. You should get to a point where you're not picking a position to set your feet in when cornering.

Also, the idea that dropping the outside foot puts the weight in the right place isn't really true. The weight is going to be wherever the contact patch is. Doesn't matter where your feet are. If the tire is leaned over onto the cornering knobs then that's where the weight is regardless of footwork.

Physics can be confusing. Bike leaned, where would leverage to the contact patch be if rider is standing on the seat?

 

[jeremy3220]

Physics can be confusing. Bike leaned, where would leverage to the contact patch be if rider is standing on the seat?

The normal force (system weight) is always the same in a steady state flat corner. You have to balance the bike so for a given corner radius and speed the system (you + bike) will have a given lean angle. So you can lean the bike more or less but the system lean angle will be determined by acceleration. In other words you lean to maintain balance. The bike is in balance in a corner. The tires don't know where you are on the bike only their lean angle, normal force and cornering force. There's obviously fore-aft weight distribution but that's a separate topic.

 

[Bicycle Rider]

I find this an interesting read, but a bit of a head-scratcher, just like the cornering advice I read in the bike magazines back 30 years ago. Where I grew up and learned riding in CT, sure the trail changed direction, but always simultaneously with a log, rock, ledge, root, creek, mudhole, boulder, low overhead branch, more roots, or some other combination of obstacles right in the middle of the “turn.” Don’t think I ever met a corner that had a sort of sweeping radius until I went out of state. After spending all that time learning those puzzle turns, where by sheer will and luck, the bike changes direction and you maintain momentum, without tires slipping out, going OTB, or smacking a pedal, getting down the trail on any regular corner was a no-stress exercise. (Although haha I’m sure I could be faster when it comes to those kind of turns.)

 

[maxtorque]

The normal force (system weight) is always the same in a steady state flat corner. You have to balance the bike so for a given corner radius and speed the system (you + bike) will have a given lean angle. So you can lean the bike more or less but the system lean angle will be determined by acceleration. In other words you lean to maintain balance. The bike is in balance in a corner. The tires don't know where you are on the bike only their lean angle, normal force and cornering force. There's obviously fore-aft weight distribution but that's a separate topic.

Without acceration. The bike can be balanced in lean with outside foot down. The bike will fall over in lean if standing on seat.

 

[jeremy3220]

Without acceration. The bike can be balanced in lean with outside foot down. The bike will fall over in lean if standing on seat.

So why are we talking about standing on your seat?

 

[maxtorque]

So why are we talking about standing on your seat?

Pedal down is the extreme opposite to standing on the seat and I am thinking it affects the leverage against the contact patches. Like you can balance the leaned bike without holding the bars with one foot down.

If pedal down is better than the seat at pressuring tires to ground, then pedal down could also be better than when weight is higher with pedals level. I think it's the relationship to the axles.

Physics confuses me certainly, and I could have this totally wrong. In bicycle ballet holding the handlebar will allow balancing the leaned bike while standing on the seat.

 

[nwberm]

I'll stay open-minded about whether or not "horizontal" pedals can apply the same weight to the rear tire for traction in corners but I need to be convinced. My "outside foot" is always my more rearward foot. I swap them around on purpose when cornering. Then I put weight toward the "back" e.g. the outside corner. Which is something I can't do and keep the pedals level, because my weight is not level on the pedals. My weight is toward the back tire. It naturally drops the outside / rearward pedal.

Furthermore, I've repeatedly tried both ways and the one that actually seems to work to keep the rear tire tracking where I want is dropping the outside foot. So experientially, I have not observed that I am able to put weight into the contact patch of the rear tire w/ horizontal pedals. You could say "you're doing it wrong" and maybe you're right. I'll keep experimenting.

 

[nwberm]

Watch this everyone and all questions will be answered.

This is the first cornering video I've seen that lines up with my own experience.

 

[edubfromktown]

Inside foot "unhinged" and weight firmly planted outside. So many times I would have lost it due to rando washout stuff on trails, idiot hikers, etc. when railing turns/whipping around blind corners.

 

[Harold]

I'll stay open-minded about whether or not "horizontal" pedals can apply the same weight to the rear tire for traction in corners but I need to be convinced. My "outside foot" is always my more rearward foot. I swap them around on purpose when cornering. Then I put weight toward the "back" e.g. the outside corner. Which is something I can't do and keep the pedals level, because my weight is not level on the pedals. My weight is toward the back tire. It naturally drops the outside / rearward pedal.

Furthermore, I've repeatedly tried both ways and the one that actually seems to work to keep the rear tire tracking where I want is dropping the outside foot. So experientially, I have not observed that I am able to put weight into the contact patch of the rear tire w/ horizontal pedals. You could say "you're doing it wrong" and maybe you're right. I'll keep experimenting.

I get what you're saying here, but I've absolutely encountered scenarios where the trail transitioned from a left-handed turn to a right-handed turn quickly so switching foot positions was impractical. I've actually tried to do the switch-foot thing in fast s-curves like that and there's just too many moving parts for me to put it all together smoothly. Not that it can't, but that'd take a much better rider than me. I've found it much smoother (and faster) to just pick a leading foot and stick with it, adjusting foot position subtly as necessary for the terrain.

It does change the dynamics of setting up your body position for the turn, of course. Limitations on flexibility mean it's harder to rotate towards the outside of the turn if one that outside foot is leading, even if it's slightly dropped (I think) for me. But that still works out better for me than trying to switch feet in fast s-curves.

 

[jeremy3220]

Pedal down is the extreme opposite to standing on the seat and I am thinking it affects the leverage against the contact patches. Like you can balance the leaned bike without holding the bars with one foot down.

If pedal down is better than the seat at pressuring tires to ground, then pedal down could also be better than when weight is higher with pedals level. I think it's the relationship to the axles.

Physics confuses me certainly, and I could have this totally wrong. In bicycle ballet holding the handlebar will allow balancing the leaned bike while standing on the seat.

The reason I brought up balance is because you're not leveraging the tires into the ground. You're not exerting torque as if you were bolted to the ground at a fixed angle.

 

[jeremy3220]

I'll stay open-minded about whether or not "horizontal" pedals can apply the same weight to the rear tire for traction in corners but I need to be convinced. My "outside foot" is always my more rearward foot.

Whatever weight you put into the pedals goes through the bottom bracket. Doesn't matter where the cranks are.

Which brings me to another myth, that you can increase weight on the front tire without increasing weight on your hands. The BB is a pivot. If you can perfectly balance with no hands, just your feet on the pedals (you probably can't actually do this), all your weight goes through the BB. So if you want to shift the weight bias forward what do you do? Think just leaning forward will do it? No, without your hands on the bar you'll just fall forward. You must use another contact point for balance. Any fore-aft weight shift on the bike is accompanied by a change in weight/pressure on the bars.

 

[Gilarider]

Inside foot "unhinged" and weight firmly planted outside. So many times I would have lost it due to rando washout stuff on trails, idiot hikers, etc. when railing turns/whipping around blind corners.

Yes, weight on outside foot, use inside leg to kick hikers out of the way. Level pedals is for straightaways going through groups of hikers.

 

[Bicycle Rider]

Whatever weight you put into the pedals goes through the bottom bracket. Doesn't matter where the cranks are.

Which brings me to another myth, that you can increase weight on the front tire without increasing weight on your hands. The BB is a pivot. If you can perfectly balance with no hands, just your feet on the pedals (you probably can't actually do this), all your weight goes through the BB. So if you want to shift the weight bias forward what do you do? Think just leaning forward will do it? No, without your hands on the bar you'll just fall forward. You must use another contact point for balance. Any fore-aft weight shift on the bike is accompanied by a change in weight/pressure on the bars.

I agree that the “pivot” nature of the BB means that any applied force to the pedals cannot be forward or behind the BB. But weighting one pedal or the other would clearly allow more force to the left or right side of the bike. That probably has some effect on cornering.

 

[shakazulu12]

I agree that the “pivot” nature of the BB means that any applied force to the pedals cannot be forward or behind the BB. But weighting one pedal or the other would clearly allow more force to the left or right side of the bike. That probably has some effect on cornering.

It's a very obvious affect in the moto world. At least on pavement or flattrack/supermoto. Weight the inside peg to initiate some over-steer. Weight the outside peg to counter over-steer. Mind you, I'm over-simplifying this and same as pedals dropped or level, there are degrees to this. It would seem that Gwinn explained it really well in his video and I'm not sure why folks think there is a standard answer that applies to many situations.

 

[jeremy3220]

I agree that the “pivot” nature of the BB means that any applied force to the pedals cannot be forward or behind the BB. But weighting one pedal or the other would clearly allow more force to the left or right side of the bike. That probably has some effect on cornering.

Yeah I'm not saying it makes no difference. Just that it doesn't increase weight on the tires.

 

[nwberm]

I'm probably too unintelligent to follow all of what's being said but the point I was trying to relate is that I don't think you can put more weight on the right pedal without it dropping and you can't put more of your weight on the left pedal without it dropping. So it stands to reason (to me) that you have to drop the side you want to put the weight on because of simple physics. If your pedals are always "horizontal," it must mean that you have equal weight (from your body) going to both sides. At least I can't see any other meaning for that.

 

[maxtorque]

Whatever weight you put into the pedals goes through the bottom bracket. Doesn't matter where the cranks are.

Which brings me to another myth, that you can increase weight on the front tire without increasing weight on your hands. The BB is a pivot. If you can perfectly balance with no hands, just your feet on the pedals (you probably can't actually do this), all your weight goes through the BB. So if you want to shift the weight bias forward what do you do? Think just leaning forward will do it? No, without your hands on the bar you'll just fall forward. You must use another contact point for balance. Any fore-aft weight shift on the bike is accompanied by a change in weight/pressure on the bars.

There is a counterbalancing effect from Q factor. For Deore Hollowtech II cranks and flats it's about 20cm from the centerline to outside of the pedal. The position of the cranks will affect this leverage. It is an interesting thought that everything goes through the bottom bracket. In my experience, the bicycle folds in the center with the outside foot down.

If leverage and balance don't matter, then it must be getting the body lower that matters, and I get lower with the outside foot down while counter steering.

Someone must have modeled this up, we need to find that info. After more reading and reflection -

It is more than weight at the bottom bracket. It is using leverage to balance. More leverage is needed as the bike is leaned further over. On flat turns, outside foot down provides the most leverage and allows the rider to stay balanced on the bike when leaning over more. Two wheeled bikes lean over when they turn. Otherwise, it's high side and out.

 

[jeremy3220]

Again it's not that weighting the left or right pedal make no difference, it's that it doesn't increase weight on the tires. Where you're balanced relative to the bike will change. Everyone has taken an inside foot off at some point and found it helps catch a slide (which is not a steady state cornering scenario).