One more vote for “it depends”.

Learn both.

In general, the flatter (non-bermed) and smoother it is, the more likely I am to drop the outside foot.

 

How about 45 degree between level and drop?

And how about cornering in wave, not keeping constant pressure?

 

I hate threads with title like this, it's
just more clickbait. what controversy ? you like just making stuff up for a stupid thread ?

corner how you want w/o pedal strikes is the only rule.

 

Well...it is becoming controversial here in this thread

 

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So if you look at his feet you'll notice they're level to the ground. This is because he has roughly equal weight on each pedal. If you articulate/lean the bike under you and keep equal weight on the pedals your outside foot will drop relative to the bike but your feet will still be level relative to the ground. As you start to lean the bike under you it becomes really hard (impossible at some point) to not drop the outside foot. The reason they teach pedals level in berms is because you're generally not leaning the bike under you. The bike is perpendicular to the surface of the berm and your pedals again end up level to the surface you're on.

Pedals level vs foot dropped should not really be an argument. The issue is when someone is dogmatic about it, where they say you do it this way every time. If you watch good coaches like Lawton and Cathro you'll start to realize footwork is a fluid tool not set positions. You should get to a point where you're not picking a position to set your feet in when cornering.

Also, the idea that dropping the outside foot puts the weight in the right place isn't really true. The weight is going to be wherever the contact patch is. Doesn't matter where your feet are. If the tire is leaned over onto the cornering knobs then that's where the weight is regardless of footwork.

 

So if you look at his feet you'll notice they're level to the ground. This is because he has roughly equal weight on each pedal. If you articulate/lean the bike under you and keep equal weight on the pedals your outside foot will drop relative to the bike but your feet will still be level relative to the ground. As you start to lean the bike under you it becomes really hard (impossible at some point) to not drop the outside foot. The reason they teach pedals level in berms is because you're generally not leaning the bike under you. The bike is perpendicular to the surface of the berm and your pedals again end up level to the surface you're on.

Pedals level vs foot dropped should not really be an argument. The issue is when someone is dogmatic about it, where they say you do it this way every time. If you watch good coaches like Lawton and Cathro you'll start to realize footwork is a fluid tool not set positions. You should get to a point where you're not picking a position to set your feet in when cornering.

Also, the idea that dropping the outside foot puts the weight in the right place isn't really true. The weight is going to be wherever the contact patch is. Doesn't matter where your feet are. If the tire is leaned over onto the cornering knobs then that's where the weight is regardless of footwork.

Physics can be confusing. Bike leaned, where would leverage to the contact patch be if rider is standing on the seat?

 

did you read what I wrote?

yeah man, I read what you wrote and agree with (almost) all of it. I'm simply providing MY opinion based on MY observations and experiences in response to the OP's question:

So why does so much advice say to corner with the pedals level?

You can disagree, I don't mind. But arguing about it is more fun!

 

Watch this everyone and all questions will be answered.

 

This is the first cornering video I've seen that lines up with my own experience.

 

I find this an interesting read, but a bit of a head-scratcher, just like the cornering advice I read in the bike magazines back 30 years ago. Where I grew up and learned riding in CT, sure the trail changed direction, but always simultaneously with a log, rock, ledge, root, creek, mudhole, boulder, low overhead branch, more roots, or some other combination of obstacles right in the middle of the “turn.” Don’t think I ever met a corner that had a sort of sweeping radius until I went out of state. After spending all that time learning those puzzle turns, where by sheer will and luck, the bike changes direction and you maintain momentum, without tires slipping out, going OTB, or smacking a pedal, getting down the trail on any regular corner was a no-stress exercise. (Although haha I’m sure I could be faster when it comes to those kind of turns.)

 

I'll stay open-minded about whether or not "horizontal" pedals can apply the same weight to the rear tire for traction in corners but I need to be convinced. My "outside foot" is always my more rearward foot. I swap them around on purpose when cornering. Then I put weight toward the "back" e.g. the outside corner. Which is something I can't do and keep the pedals level, because my weight is not level on the pedals. My weight is toward the back tire. It naturally drops the outside / rearward pedal.

Furthermore, I've repeatedly tried both ways and the one that actually seems to work to keep the rear tire tracking where I want is dropping the outside foot. So experientially, I have not observed that I am able to put weight into the contact patch of the rear tire w/ horizontal pedals. You could say "you're doing it wrong" and maybe you're right. I'll keep experimenting.

 

I get what you're saying here, but I've absolutely encountered scenarios where the trail transitioned from a left-handed turn to a right-handed turn quickly so switching foot positions was impractical. I've actually tried to do the switch-foot thing in fast s-curves like that and there's just too many moving parts for me to put it all together smoothly. Not that it can't, but that'd take a much better rider than me. I've found it much smoother (and faster) to just pick a leading foot and stick with it, adjusting foot position subtly as necessary for the terrain.

It does change the dynamics of setting up your body position for the turn, of course. Limitations on flexibility mean it's harder to rotate towards the outside of the turn if one that outside foot is leading, even if it's slightly dropped (I think) for me. But that still works out better for me than trying to switch feet in fast s-curves.

 

Inside foot "unhinged" and weight firmly planted outside. So many times I would have lost it due to rando washout stuff on trails, idiot hikers, etc. when railing turns/whipping around blind corners.

 

Yes, weight on outside foot, use inside leg to kick hikers out of the way. Level pedals is for straightaways going through groups of hikers.

 

I'm probably too unintelligent to follow all of what's being said but the point I was trying to relate is that I don't think you can put more weight on the right pedal without it dropping and you can't put more of your weight on the left pedal without it dropping. So it stands to reason (to me) that you have to drop the side you want to put the weight on because of simple physics. If your pedals are always "horizontal," it must mean that you have equal weight (from your body) going to both sides. At least I can't see any other meaning for that.

 

Again it's not that weighting the left or right pedal make no difference, it's that it doesn't increase weight on the tires. Where you're balanced relative to the bike will change. Everyone has taken an inside foot off at some point and found it helps catch a slide (which is not a steady state cornering scenario).

 

I wonder if this is because taking the inside foot off shifts any weight that was there entirely to the outside.

 

I use whatever to avoid pedal strikes or get the body position I want. I haven't noticed any pedal arrangement affecting the bike itself.

 

In my experience, dropping the outside foot simply makes it easier (and more stable) to lean the bike over further (relative to the body) and engage the side knobs.

This is why I find it useful on flat turns.

However, it does mean I am more “locked in” to the bike, so it is not good if there are obstacles (like roots/rocks) in the turn.

 

Weighting the outside foot when Mt Biking is similar if not the same as a Ski turn. Just like with a ski when placing pressure on the outside foot the inside edge of your tire or ski can carve or hook up with the surface. Of course with skiing every turn is dependent on weighting the outside or downhill ski whereas with Mt Biking its not.

 

I think the bottom line of teaching techniques to beginner skill levels is reducing mistakes that lead to injury/damage.

For example:

Washing out the front: this is often caused by steering the front wheel a bit too much, with too much momentum wanting to go in the original direction and disagreeing with the direction the front wheel is wanting to go in. Some refer to it as the front wheel being pushed.

One basic counter-measure I developed is to simply remind yourself that your body needing to make the direction change is different from the bike needing to make the direction change. The bike is connected to the ground and the rider is connected to the bike. You need to plan accordingly, based on what's upcoming on the trail. Sometimes, you don't need to change the direction of the body that much, since the trail immediately zig-zags back. Technically, the body might not even ever need to change direction, like in a chicane. You can basically make your bike take the twists alone, while the body goes sideways to stay connected to the bike, with the core of your body hovering over the apex and the bike being sped up to whip back under to catch the falling body.

On a wide and long carving turn, like on most open paths (like roads), you generally need to work on the optimal alignment angles between you and the trail, for whatever speed you're going at. This is trained up in a parking lot, even a dirt and gravel one, and relies on subconscious muscle memory. The more experience you got, the more data the muscle memory has to work off of to pick an optimal technique for whatever circumstances you enter. I rarely make any conscious decision, unless I'm experimenting. I just crouch and pick a speed that I know I can pull off, and the muscle memory pulls it off. Those videos don't say it, but they're probably just encouraging you to get such experience through targeted training. I guarantee that you won't look anything like the demonstration, since your circumstances will be different and your body is convinced that it has a better adaptation figured out from experience. You basically have to break the body's programming if you think it's wrong and want to switch to a less intuitive one, with forceful conscious adaptation.

A lot of the techniques I pointed out in my first post on this thread counters the washing-out-the-front issue. This is a case of skipping a lot of unnecessary trial and error experience. Getting butt jutted out, crouching low to take advantage of space created by saddle slammed as low as poss, pushing/rolling front wheel in direction I want to go... this last one still incorporates steering, so it might come as a surprise to those who think steering is the issue. It works since the body is primed to change direction, rather than acting like a sack of potatoes, and the bike is already on the correct course and acts as an extra compelling force to change the body's direction (pulls the body into that direction, with minimal risk of wash-out). You need every thing you can get to help change the body's direction, especially if the ground lacks lateral support, and I find this is a relatively safe technique to add to the mix to make sharper turns. Leaning by itself often goes wide, hence why I added this to re-enable steering into the mix and improve the accuracy/precision of staying on whatever line I envisioned taking (proved possible/realistic through experience). It's hard to explain, but I believe steering sort of modulates the amount of lean. My habit of making my body cut the inside, and let the bike swing wide, tends to make the lean a bit excessive, so turning the handlebars more to the inside raises it up, leaving my feet/legs to act as suspension. A pre-requisite to this technique is to not put much weight on the bars, leaving the arms loose/free to use for control.

Also, fair reminder: overthinking things can set you back as much as not thinking enough. Trust in the basics and come up with some confidence to break past your fears, excuses, etc. that prevent you from exploring outside your comfort zone. You learn more from mistakes and shame, IMO. Don't hide from such mistakes; get them out of your system sooner, so you can progress faster. The only pride you should take advantage of is the kind that says you can do whatever someone else can do, like Chris Kovarik's high speed drifting; don't let it talk you into believing that you're already at a higher level than most and fight any attempt to destabilize that belief, that makes it seem as if there's actually a long way to go to actually being called good. I'm still learning lots and not trying to tout/imply that I'm an expert--I'm just practicing trying to explain things to test my own understanding. I was hitting turns faster on my commute the other day to see if I even do what I was preaching... also, I sort of advanced to the straight-lining and jumping phase where I skip over unnecessary curves (I don't follow the other tire tracks on trails around corners anymore, convinced that they're newbie trap lines), ever since I got comfortable on the emtb, so I practice this stuff even less. XD

 

Physics says you can corner better with lower COG. Where do you think the "longer, lower, slacker" mantra came from? ...and dropper posts?
Pedals level is not a universal solution.

-F