[LaloKera]

This would have been a perfect time to imbed an airtag or Tile tracker.

Most likely scenario was that someone loaded it on to a UPS truck without scanning it out. so last scan was into the warehouse and never shows it leaving. With thousands of packages leaving there everyday, How do you go back and identify this on security footage? More trouble than it's worth im guessing.

By the way. What does Bike flights do anyway? Isn't their whole business model to ship high end bikes? I'm sure they charge a pretty penny too so why is a gaurantee not included? What is the incentive to use them? I could just package the bike myself and go straight to UPS. They should be dealing with this mess. If this is in fact common with this company then maybe you have some legal recourse? Ultimately UPS is responsible for losing the package but how do you prove what was actually in the box?

 

[LVLBTY]

Sounds like you got scammed for sure, insurance should have been a requirement for the purchase and shipment.

 

[Buffalo Soldier]

I worked in the package industry years ago. I watched people steal right in front of me. A package that large probably was stolen or maybe sent to the wrong address and someone got a free bike IMO. It may have not been scanned. Pure speculation on my part. If you can’t afford to lose it, insure it.

A UPS store I know wouldn’t insure and ship anything worth over 1k.

 

[JYB]

I’ve got a question. Has anybody that has responded here ever insured a package, had said package damaged or lost, and actually had the shipper(UPS, USPS, or FedEx) reimburse you for the damage/disappearance?

I used to work for a business that shipped many bicycles around the country and components/accessories all over the planet. After witnessing multiple instances of damage during shipping, I was informed from multiple sources that the shipping insurance is a pretty much a scam. I was told that it is extremely rare for a shipper to provide any reimbursement on damaged packages. Maybe this is no longer true, but I only recall one instance of a major shipper providing reimbursement for the cost of a very valuable frame that was damaged by utter negligence during shipping. There were literally footprints in multiple spots on the outside of the box. The reimbursement came after a lengthy to-do with the shipper, and this was only after it was implied that there would be a social media campaign against the shipper by a highly respected professional cyclist who has millions of viewers.

The cyclist was the actual owner of the frame and had packaged and shipped it to us. We were to sell it on consignment. The frame arrived cracked, with foot-stomps on the outside of the box. The package had been insured. The shipper claimed that the insurance didn’t cover this event. After discussions with many parties, we were informed that signature on delivery is better and more useful than insurance.

Maybe I was told bad information, but this was my experience. I’d love to hear that many people on this thread have been reimbursed for damaged/lost packages.

 

[mlloyd007]

A package that big, just doesn’t disappear into thin air. Laws were broken.

Pure conjecture and impossible to prove.

 

[67King]

I’ve got a question. Has anybody that has responded here ever insured a package, had said package damaged or lost, and actually had the shipper(UPS, USPS, or FedEx) reimburse you for the damage/disappearance?

I used to work for a business that shipped many bicycles around the country and components/accessories all over the planet. After witnessing multiple instances of damage during shipping, I was informed from multiple sources that the shipping insurance is a pretty much a scam. I was told that it is extremely rare for a shipper to provide any reimbursement on damaged packages. Maybe this is no longer true, but I only recall one instance of a major shipper providing reimbursement for the cost of a very valuable frame that was damaged by utter negligence during shipping. There were literally footprints in multiple spots on the outside of the box. The reimbursement came after a lengthy to-do with the shipper, and this was only after it was implied that there would be a social media campaign against the shipper by a highly respected professional cyclist who has millions of viewers.

The cyclist was the actual owner of the frame and had packaged and shipped it to us. We were to sell it on consignment. The frame arrived cracked, with foot-stomps on the outside of the box. The package had been insured. The shipper claimed that the insurance didn’t cover this event. After discussions with many parties, we were informed that signature on delivery is better and more useful than insurance.

Maybe I was told bad information, but this was my experience. I’d love to hear that many people on this thread have been reimbursed for damaged/lost packages.

Yeah, sold a car part for $300. Sold it COD, the guy refused the package, they sent back to me, it was mangled. I filed a claim, that asked for proof of value. Even though I only insured it for $300, I proved it was worth twice that. They not only reimbursed me, but reimbursed me for the market value of nearly $600, rather than just the insured value.

My old business, where I still help out my business partner on a regular basis, has damaged goods on a regular basis, and has never had any sort of issue with UPS not covering the damage.

I've never NOT had an insurance claim honored from UPS.

 

[JYB]

Yeah, sold a car part for $300. Sold it COD, the guy refused the package, they sent back to me, it was mangled. I filed a claim, that asked for proof of value. Even though I only insured it for $300, I proved it was worth twice that. They not only reimbursed me, but reimbursed me for the market value of nearly $600, rather than just the insured value.

My old business, where I still help out my business partner on a regular basis, has damaged goods on a regular basis, and has never had any sort of issue with UPS not covering the damage.

I've never NOT had an insurance claim honored from UPS.

That’s great to hear. I was hoping to hear more positive responses than negative ones.

I’d also like to hear about experiences with FedEx. I’ve been told that UPS is better than FedEx when it comes to insurance claims.

 

[67King]

A package that big, just doesn’t disappear into thin air. Laws were broken.

Nonsense. Stuff gets lost all the time. I was actually at the plant where they made Mustangs one time in 2003, as I used to do engine development for Ford. While I was there, they found a rack - not a singe, but a rack, which contained nine - of engines that was lost 3 years previously. Now if a place can lose a rack that weighs 5000 pounds, is 12 feet tall, 10 feet side, and 5 feet deep, it is hardly impossible to think that a warehouse with things of all different shapes and sizes moving in and out all day long can have one get misplaced.

 

[chazpat]

That's why you need insurance, all UPS knows it's that they received a box, was the content worth $100? $1000?$10000? By buying insurance they are accepting your stated value and agreeing to cover that amount.

IDK, if you left your bike at an LBS for repair and they asked you if you want to buy insurance to cover the value of your bike if it is stolen from their store, would you think that was reasonable? I can see UPS requiring insurance to cover damage as they have no control over how the item was packaged but it seems to me that if the package is in the possession, they should be liable if it goes missing.

I don't know exactly what the UPS agreement for insurance says and I'm sure the lawyers have it worded perfectly, but I think there may be some confusion on the term "loss". If the bike was snapped in half it would be a complete loss but, it would not be lost.

 

[bmwpowere36m3]

Seems like damage and loss while in the shipper's custody should be covered by them... instead they can pass the cost onto their customers. Contents being damaged as a result of poor packaging should on the customer. Along with loss if stolen from their home or wherever the package is being delivered.

I suppose all this would require more documentation on both parties, so claims could be processed.

Reality, I bet you agree to terms when using their service and they are not liable for loss or damage beyond the price of shipment and $100.

 

[chazpat]

Nonsense. Stuff gets lost all the time. I was actually at the plant where they made Mustangs one time in 2003, as I used to do engine development for Ford. While I was there, they found a rack - not a singe, but a rack, which contained nine - of engines that was lost 3 years previously. Now if a place can lose a rack that weighs 5000 pounds, is 12 feet tall, 10 feet side, and 5 feet deep, it is hardly impossible to think that a warehouse with things of all different shapes and sizes moving in and out all day long can have one get misplaced.

I used to work in the trade show industry and huge crates would go missing. I remember once waiting for a shipment to arrive for a show and the whole 18 wheeler was missing (granted this was 20 years ago). It finally showed up, apparently the driver had made a big detour to spend the night with a girlfriend.

 

[67King]

Seems like damage and loss while in the shipper's custody should be covered by them... instead they can pass the cost onto their customers. Contents being damaged as a result of poor packaging should on the customer. Along with loss if stolen from their home or wherever the package is being delivered.

I suppose all this would require more documentation on both parties, so claims could be processed.

Reality, I bet you agree to terms when using their service and they are not liable for loss or damage beyond the price of shipment and $100.

How about if a natural disaster like a tornado hits? Still them? What about your car, do you insure it, or do you go to the property owner adjacent to the road where a deer ran out in front of you and totaled your car? Here is a trickier one. Another customer of theirs lies on their form about contents, and said contents explode, leak, or other wise escape the packaging, and damage everything in the truck. Who handles the legal cost of going after that person, and what if they can't pay for the damages? Maybe they were shipping someting liquid, but another package had an object not as well packed break through and puncture said package, causing the leak. Then which one is at fault?

Damage and loss is covered by them.....when coverage is opted for. Otherwise, the coverage is baked into the price of shipping, and the guy shipping a $30 picture frame has to pay $40 to ship it, instead of $10, whereas the guy with a $3000 bike only has to pay $40 to ship it instead of $75. The guy with the cottage business of picture frames goes out of business because he can't afford shipping costs.

How many people here wouldn't blink at paying $15 to ship a pair of $10 grips? Folks wouldn't buy them. But the same $15 to ship a $600 XX SL cassette isn't going to make people do more than gripe that for $600, they should get free shipping.

 

[bmwpowere36m3]

IDK, if you left your bike at an LBS for repair and they asked you if you want to buy insurance to cover the value of your bike if it is stolen from their store, would you think that was reasonable? I can see UPS requiring insurance to cover damage as they have no control over how the item was packaged but it seems to me that if the package is in the possession, they should be liable if it goes missing.

I don't know exactly what the UPS agreement for insurance says and I'm sure the lawyers have it worded perfectly, but I think there may be some confusion on the term "loss". If the bike was snapped in half it would be a complete loss but, it would not be lost.

I agree, the shipper would need to know the cost of the item and agree to "accept". I suppose its all about risk... they know they lose and damage some percentage of shipments. Now you want to send $2000, $6000, $10k items it just increases their potential risk.

How about if a natural disaster like a tornado hits? Still them? What about your car, do you insure it, or do you go to the property owner adjacent to the road where a deer ran out in front of you and totaled your car? Here is a trickier one. Another customer of theirs lies on their form about contents, and said contents explode, leak, or other wise escape the packaging, and damage everything in the truck. Who handles the legal cost of going after that person, and what if they can't pay for the damages? Maybe they were shipping someting liquid, but another package had an object not as well packed break through and puncture said package, causing the leak. Then which one is at fault?

Damage and loss is covered by them.....when coverage is opted for. Otherwise, the coverage is baked into the price of shipping, and the guy shipping a $30 picture frame has to pay $40 to ship it, instead of $10, whereas the guy with a $3000 bike only has to pay $40 to ship it instead of $75. The guy with the cottage business of picture frames goes out of business because he can't afford shipping costs.

How many people here wouldn't blink at paying $15 to ship a pair of $10 grips? Folks wouldn't buy them. But the same $15 to ship a $600 XX SL cassette isn't going to make people do more than gripe that for $600, they should get free shipping.

Natural disasters can't be controlled... theft and damage is more within their control. If they put a set of forks thru or drive over your box, that's on them and they should cover it. They toss the box, drop it... we know that's "normal" handling and packages need to be packed properly. Their warehouse burns down, they should cover all contents.

They lose your package in their custody, that should be on them. The delivery truck crashes and damages all the contents, again they should be responsible for the contents. Now they can go to court and recover damages from another party if they are liable.

The cost of shipping low-value or high-value goods is a different story. It may not be worth shipping $10 grips... but if you can't get them locally, then really their $25 grips.

 

[Harold]

It definitely gets muddy when you look at all of the potential ways your package can get damaged or go missing.

I do feel like looking at fault should be part of that. Such as, if the shipping company is the one at fault for the lost or damaged shipment, then it should be on them to compensate the shipper without needing extra insurance. Theft from the warehouse or from the delivery truck? That should be part of it. Manhandling it at the WH? That should be part of it. The insurance should come into play for things like natural disasters (hey, WNC flooding and LA fires), what happens to the item once it's delivered (porch pirates!), and so on. My wife has an item that was shipped from LA and was supposed to have been delivered days ago. Tracking says the label was made but there's been no progress to it. We think the fires have affected the shipment. Was it burned up or just massively delayed? No idea.

But that means you'd need MUCH better tracking of those packages than currently exists. I've lost count of the items I've ordered where tracking information shows the item as having never been received by the shipping company and then it shows up on my doorstep. Instead of relying only on a person to scan a barcode for tracking, there should be RFID tags on all shipping labels. Sure, there should also be people scanning the barcodes as a backup/verification step, too. But of course all that would increase shipping costs. Probably by a lot.

 

[mike_kelly]

I once had a bike frame shipped to me by Fedex. On the day of delivery it was marked delivered with a picture, but it was not my house. I filed a claim and they never found or did anything I can tell to find it. A guy showed up on my doorstep with a package and said I think I have a bike of yours. It was delivered 25 miles away across town and this guy was nice enough to drive all the way to give it to me. When I inspected the box there was the correct original address label and another small label that Fedex had put on the box with the guys address instead of mine. I have had this happen multiple times. Why they put another label on the box is a mystery and even more so when it is the wrong address.
Fedex never got back to me on the claim.

 

[67King]

I agree, the shipper would need to know the cost of the item and agree to "accept". I suppose its all about risk... they know they lose and damage some percentage of shipments. Now you want to send $2000, $6000, $10k items it just increases their potential risk.

That is exactly what happens. For them to "accept" with a known value.....to your point, managing risk, knowing they lose and damage some percentage of shipments......the rate would vary, dependent on the value of their accepted risk. The simplest form of risk management is cost=value*P(loss). So Cost of risk is equal to the value of the item multiplied by the probability (likelihood) of a loss or damage of said good. Example, $3000 bike, and the carrier loses 1% of goods, the cost of that risk is $3000*0.01, or $30.

The term we use for that value based rate is "insurance."

And it is no different than the other variable costs. If it costs $0.25 per pound in fuel to ship an item, then cost=$0.25*weight. So 10 pounds costs $2.50. At some point, a load becomes volume limited, rather than weight limited. If the cost of running a load costs around $0.50 per cubic foot, then cost of a 2'x2'x6' box is $0.50(24cf), or $12.

Then there are obviously fixed costs. A standard weight and size box is going to take the workers the same amont of time and space to move through the logistics chain whether it is worth $10 or $10,000.

And those fixed costs bake in a certain amount of liability coverage. Usually it is $50 or $100 (I think USPS is $50, others are $100?). That liability is wehter it is natural disaster, or the fact that imperfect humans are still involved. What weight, sized, and value based variable costs do is keep costs down for the customers.....because if UPS charges a flat rate with unlimited liability coverage, and FedEx uses a variable rate, FedEx will get 90% of the business, and UPS will go under.

Now, they probably COULD break things down into "at fault" vs "acts of God" vs "accidental sabotage by other customer" and I bet they have looked at it. But they probably determined that the cost of implementing a 3 tier risk management system would be far above the value it provides.

I mean, don't get me wrong. I understand why folks feel UPS is liable. But virtually all shippers have business models set up this way. It is sort of like forgoing "uninsured motorist" insurance on your auto policy, then getting mad when you are hit by an uninsured motorist. I've never been hit by one before, but that doesn't mean I'm not at risk for it happening in the future.

 

[twowheelmotion]

Oh bummer!! I ship a ton of bikes and parts through bikeflights.

Opening a claim on bikeflights is a nightmare in itself.

I will say that bikeflights will work hard to remedy that situation. It might take 6 months, but they will most likely find the determining factor.

 

[Jayem]

If you don’t buy insurance, and your parcel is damaged or lost, there’s only one person to blame.

Picard

 

[Tama John]

Strong evidence for a probable cause here.



You can't just lose a box as a shipper and don't have anything to do with it.
Did the box get evaporated in an traffic accident? Does't sound like. Neither in a fire or something.
It is also not known that the truck was robbed.
UPS's investigation concluded that they don't find the box and don't know where it is. So they are at fault. They can't prove that something happened to the box they are not responsible for. I'd say criminally, they need to defend themselves... they picked up the box, but never delivered. Simply claiming not knowing where the box is, sounds like a very lame attempt of excuse. Wonder how a judge will look at it.

My prediction on the Police response:

 

[Harold]

I once had a bike frame shipped to me by Fedex. On the day of delivery it was marked delivered with a picture, but it was not my house. I filed a claim and they never found or did anything I can tell to find it. A guy showed up on my doorstep with a package and said I think I have a bike of yours. It was delivered 25 miles away across town and this guy was nice enough to drive all the way to give it to me. When I inspected the box there was the correct original address label and another small label that Fedex had put on the box with the guys address instead of mine. I have had this happen multiple times. Why they put another label on the box is a mystery and even more so when it is the wrong address.
Fedex never got back to me on the claim.

I had similar happen once. It never had a different address label on it, but the actual delivered address was close to mine. Best I can tell is that there were two mistakes made. First mistake was from the person who put my package on the wrong delivery truck. Second mistake was from the driver who dropped it off at a similar-looking address instead of recognizing that the address on the label wasn't on his route.

the person who received it delivered it to me instead of involving the shipping company (I don't even remember who the shipping company was for that one), but I did reach out to the shipping company about it before it was delivered to me. I also got back with them to tell them what happened.