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#61 ·
If you're looking for experience, I can only share my own.

+1 for some mild yoga exercises and core strengthening without weights. I had to go light at first. My shortcomings include overdoing things and rushing back in too soon after injury. The experience of repeated injury has taught me the shortest way back to health is to give my body adequate time to heal and make a progressive return. In the meantime, I got to learn all sorts of things like how to strengthen my psoas muscles, do planks, use foam rollers, etc.
 
#62 ·
HelloMyNameIsSean said:
I'm going to buy the book when I leave the house in a few minutes. There's a weird series of events I didn't think about until Andy pm'd me.

I won't go into detail, but something else I noticed is that the past 2 days I got back into the gym. Did some core work, and the usual arms/chest/w,e workouts. And than spent 40 minutes on the stationary bike. For about an hour after I finished my work out, the pain was 100% gone, but as soon as I got home and changed. The spasms returned fully.

I'm so confused at this point lol
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Pull-ups are a great upper body excercise that is fantastic for your lower back, so are push-ups with your feet on a small excercise ball. Any type of bicep curl or arm isolation is a waste of time IME.

Keep up the hard work and positivity, those back spasms will be gone with training for sure just do 1 to 2 hours of core/leg work per day and STRETCH your brains out. Also a big +1 for swimming or treading water.
:thumbsup:
 
#63 ·
Real advice

This is an exert from an interview with a will known trainer (Eric Cressey) that has worked with lots of athletes including Olympians. It does a better job of summarizing what I have been trying to explain. This is based on real academic research (see link at bottom).

8. Recognize that lumbar spine range-of-motion is positively correlated with injury risk.

By now, you've probably already read several articles at T NATION that espouse the benefits of training the core for stability and not mobility. If you haven't, take a look at the following:

High-Performance Core Training
Real "Core" Exercise
Anterior Core Training
Complete Core Training

The premise is pretty simple: you want to move predominantly at your hips and thoracic spine, and while a small amount of movement at the lumbar segments is normal, you don't want to encourage extra motion there.

As I noted above, there are specific situations that call for individualized mobilization protocols at the lumbar spine, but in terms of what you can accomplish with your own training, the general principles of "mobilize thoracic spine and hips, stabilize lumbar spine" apply.

Here's where it gets interesting. The American Medical Association (AMA) still uses lumbar spine range of motion as the qualifying criterion for allowing lower back pain patients to return to work. In other words, you needed to attain a certain amount of gross lumbar spine rotational range-of-motion to be considered "safe" to return to work.

Surprisingly, as Parks, Crichton, Goldford, and McGill observed in the discussion of their 2003 study (5), there isn't a single study out there that shows the lumbar spine range of motion is correlated with having a healthy back; in fact, the opposite is true!

Those with high lumbar spine ROM and power are more likely to be injured, whereas those with better lumbar spine stabilizing endurance are the healthy ones. And, interestingly, there really isn't any way of knowing what an individual's original "normal" spine ROM was, so they have to assume that someone had "average" spine ROM.

Yes, that study from the world's premier spine researchers was published just over six years ago (meaning that the data was probably collected at least seven years ago). Meanwhile, the AMA hasn't caught on, and chances are many doctors haven't, either, as this has been the "standard" for decades (28 years, actually, to my knowledge). Why?

Well, for starters, lawyers like solid numbers to which they can adhere to in court. When you have a collection of problems that go undiagnosed in 85% of cases, and a certain percentage of the population who will lie about back pain to get out of work or win a lawsuit, this number becomes even more important.

Find the whole article here:

T NATION | Lower Back Savers
 
#64 ·
r99 said:
Surprisingly, as Parks, Crichton, Goldford, and McGill observed in the discussion of their 2003 study (5), there isn't a single study out there that shows the lumbar spine range of motion is correlated with having a healthy back; in fact, the opposite is true!

Those with high lumbar spine ROM and power are more likely to be injured, whereas those with better lumbar spine stabilizing endurance are the healthy ones.
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Did you read the study? It only had 18 test subjects (nearly statistically insignificant) and all they were able to conclude that "[t]he relation between lumbar range of motion measures and functional ability is weak or nonexistent."

They never said "the opposite is true." The point of the study was to say that using ROM to determine a worker's ability to function is not a good test. It's here if you want to read it:

A comparison of lumbar range of motion... [Spine (Phila Pa 1976). 2003] - PubMed - NCBI

Additionally, the second paragraph quoted above is lacking any kind of statistical credibility.

While I agree with your sentiment, to an extent, it is a far more complicated issue than you are giving credit for. The article you linked to is a bit sensationalist, and shouldn't be believed verbatim.

The take-home is that spinal flexibility is not the kind of flexibility someone with back pain should be trying to work on. They should work on hip, pelvic, psosas, etc. flexibility and stability, with core strengthening to support the back.
 
#65 ·
jtmartino said:
Did you read the study? It only had 18 test subjects (nearly statistically insignificant) and all they were able to conclude that "[t]he relation between lumbar range of motion measures and functional ability is weak or nonexistent."

They never said "the opposite is true." The point of the study was to say that using ROM to determine a worker's ability to function is not a good test. It's here if you want to read it:

A comparison of lumbar range of motion... [Spine (Phila Pa 1976). 2003] - PubMed - NCBI

Additionally, the second paragraph quoted above is lacking any kind of statistical credibility.

While I agree with your sentiment, to an extent, it is a far more complicated issue than you are giving credit for. The article you linked to is a bit sensationalist, and shouldn't be believed verbatim.

The take-home is that spinal flexibility is not the kind of flexibility someone with back pain should be trying to work on. They should work on hip, pelvic, psosas, etc. flexibility and stability, with core strengthening to support the back.
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You are absolutely right. The author did not do a great job of siting Mcgill's most convincing research and the topic is WAY more complex than that little blurb infers. My goal was to post an accessible summary of the fact that you do not want to aggressively work on spinal flexibility.
 
Discussion starter · #66 ·
Thanks again for the support. I've made a little progress over the weekend. I'm having a second cortisone injection tomorrow morning, and I'm giving it two more weeks of P.T and light gym activity. I'm in the process of making an appointment with another Surgeon from Columbia Pres in NYC. If in two weeks time there's no signs of letting up, I'm planning to pull the trigger on surgery, depending on what the doctor says of course.

My mind is finally clearing up, and I'm coming out of the slump I've been in.

Really can't thank you all enough, it really does mean a lot. :cornut:
 
#67 ·
I can relate- was in a car accident on the interstate. Lady spun, crossed 3 lanes and hit me- kept the truck on all 4 wheels but it was not easy. hit the guard rail, she hit me again- bottom line is it sucked. :mad:

fractured vertebrae in neck, 3 herniated/ bulged disks out of work for 2 YEARS :rolleyes:

keep a cool head and let your body heal. I just started riding again after 7 years. (got in a hell of a lot of surfing though (longboards rock!)) Dont rush it. I can tell you for me, I was always comfortable on my bike. (not when I was on the ground in agony)- but even when it was stiff or sore, I could pull out the bike; sit on the seat and grab the bars and I swear I felt "relaxed". I did not ride though-

keep a positive attitude. "You are snared by the words of your mouth." Keep it positive.

L.R. :thumbsup:
 
#68 ·
Sean, good luck with the nerve block tomorrow, and I hope that you're feeling better, both mentally and physically. I know what you're going through, and it's not easy to remain positive.

I'm in my late 30s now and have had back problems for the better part of 15 years. I've gone through several herniated discs, including both lumbar and cervical. I've been through just about every treatment possible with the exception of going to a chiropractor, which I just won't do.

I also read Sarno, and agree that your attitude and mental outlook have a lot to do with your physical health. I'm glad that people here found success with Sarno, but it just didn't do it for me. I was getting worse, and of course I was off the bike and my mental outlook suffered in conjunction with my physical health, and it was a severe downward spiral.

I did the best I could to avoid surgery, but when I could no longer walk and had to piss in a bottle because i couldn't get out of bed, that was the last straw. My case was severe enough to have an immediate diskectomy and laminotomy at L4/L5. People say to avoid surgery at all costs, but I have to disagree in my own case. The surgery nearly removed all pain, and I was walking the next day (while still in the hospital).

I took 6 weeks off work to recover (bed rest, most of the time), and I admit that it was a tough go for those 6 weeks. After that was PT twice a week for months, and I was off the bike for 6 months.

That was a year ago. I'm now back on the dirt, although I'm going to get a plush FS 29er to help smooth out the bumps on the ride. I still get flare ups from time to time if I sit for too long. I ice almost every night, and have just learned how to move correctly

You've got a lot of people rooting for you, as shown by the 60+ responses to your thread. Consider these people your virtual support group, and as those who can relate or at least sympathize with your situation. There's no quick fix to back pain, and it will take some time.
 
#69 ·
When none of the standard therapies work on pain, it may indicate the back is not the cause. Sometimes it can be the body trying to protect an area from something that is being anatomically confused with the back. Do some reading on myotherapy and try to locate a good myotherapist in your area. The treatments are simple and not traumatic. If effective, you will know quickly and that is much better than ongoing misery or surgery. My background is in traditional medicine, so this is not my answer for anything and everything and sorry if it has been mentioned somewhere else in here.
 
#70 ·
Before considering surgery, you should pick up Pain Free, by Pete Egoscue. Barnes & Noble typically keeps it in stock. Read through the entire book, not just the section about the back, and then give the exercises (E-cises) a try.
Amazon.com: Pain Free: A Revolutionary Method for Stopping Chronic Pain (9780553379884): Pete Egoscue, Roger Gittines: Books

Another book that I've found beneficial is The Multifidus Back Pain Solution, by Jim Johnson. Very simple exercises to strengthen small, lesser known, but highly important muscles along the spine.
Amazon.com: The Multifidus Back Pain Solution: Simple Exercises That Target the Muscles That Count (9781572242784): Jim Johnson: Books
 
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#71 ·
Hang in there. Back pain takes a long time to heal up and be prepared for set-backs. One step forward, two steps back. There's nothing worse than being in the fetal position on the floor unable to move.

Docs figured I'd hurt my back when I had my first gran mal seizure 15 years ago. I fell straight back into the bathroom and somehow managed to fall between the sink and toilet. I'm just grateful I didn't hit either one. I've had several seizures over the years (usually when I switch meds) and I'm sure they haven't helped.

I know people knock chiropractors, but mine has been a miracle worker as he discovered that my left hip rotates toward the front causing back pain. The muscles seize up trying to keep it from rotating. I have really tight thigh and hamstring muscles and the tension between the two set off the hip rotation. Stretching has made a huge difference.

I have tried a little Yoga and that helps, but I have to take it really easy and not all poses are really back friendly. I haven't taken a class, just tried a few poses and watched my flexibility while trying some.

PT has helped in strengthening my lower back as well.

Cycling helps me because it stretches my back out. I can't make it past a mile walking or my back screams in pain but I can ride 10-20 miles and be pain free on my Fargo.

My biggest weakness is taking care of my bikes. Getting one up on the stand, cleaning it, changing tires, tinkering and putting one up on the bike rack takes a toll on my back but I love doing it.

My son and I had a great time taking apart his Rockhopper and putting drop bars on it just to see if we could. You can, but it's not pretty and makes the front part of the bike unstable. It was great mother/son bonding time but I'm paying for it today. He gets to put his bike back together when he gets home.

It's also about finding balance. If it hurts, stop or ease up and try again another day. The hardest part is asking for help and I'm sure it's worse for guys. I've had to make adjustments in my daily life but it helps. I hate when people tell to you suck it up, but just push on. You are on your time schedule and not theirs.

Good luck and take it easy. You will get better.
 
#72 ·
HelloMyNameIsSean said:
Turns out I herniated three discs somehow, doesn't really matter how at this point.
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I think it matters a whole lot at this point. There's a reason why the discs herniated, and if you don't find out why, and address that, then recovery could take a very long time, if ever. Even if you do go the surgery route, problems could persist in the future, or manifest themselves in other body parts if the root of the dysfunction is not identified. The Alexander Technique, Feldenkrais, Hanna Somatics, Craig Williamson's work, they all deal with the field of self use, and how mis-use can lead to physical problems.
Sean, your physical labor in the past may have set up a lot of musculo-skeletal asymmetry that can lead to ongoing problems if they're not identified. Detailing cars can put a lot of strain on the shoulder and neck, which can start a chain reaction of problems down the skeletal line. Crouching in awkward positions can do the same for the core and pelvic alignment, which can wreak havoc on the back and elsewhere.

After going through my collection of books I've accumulated over the years, I would also recommend to anyone with musculo-skeletal pain to seek out these books:

Somatics by Thomas Hanna
Amazon.com: Somatics: Reawakening The Mind's Control Of Movement, Flexibility, And Health (9780738209579): Thomas Hanna: Books

Muscular Re-Training for Pain-Free Living by Craig Williamson
Amazon.com: Muscular Retraining for Pain-Free Living (9781590303672): Craig Williamson: Books

How You Stand, How You Move, How You Live by Missy Vineyard
Amazon.com: How You Stand, How You Move, How You Live: Learning the Alexander Technique to Explore Your Mind-Body Connection and Achieve Self-Mastery (9781600940064): Missy Vineyard: Books

Not sure if this pertains to your situation, Sean, but this video is very informative:
Piriformis Syndrome, Low Back Pain, Sciatica - Sock Doc - YouTube

All of The Sock Doc's videos are very informative, even if most pertain to common running injuries:
TheSockDoc - YouTube

Speaking of the psoas, if you know of a really good massage therapist or myofascial release practitioner, have them check your psoas. If one has more tension than the other, that might be the source of a lot of back pain and pelvic misalignment. Psoas release can do wonders, so too can addressing trigger points in the hamstrings and glutes, by manual release. If you have trigger points, then stretching is not recommended until they're released. The Sock Doc opposes most stretching, as he says it does more harm than good. His argument can be found here:
Stretching Is Dangerous!: Don't Stretch For Better Health | Sock-Doc

I seem to recall reading years ago, or hearing from a former teammate of his, that Thomas Frischknecht never stretched. I'm just using him as an example of someone who had great success and didn't need to stretch.
For those who are injured though, manual myofascial release and trigger point release, and muscular strengthening and stabilization is the route that should be taken, as opposed to simply stretching, which could do more harm than good.

I agree with The Sock Doc for the most part, but it's because most people tend to be stretching wrong. There's a really great book called The Permanent Pain Cure by Ming Chew, that uses incorporates Sir Charles Sherrington's second law, which pertains to reciprocal inhibition. Muscles groups have antagonists. Biceps/triceps, quads/hamstrings, hip flexors/glutes. If your goal is to relax and lengthen one, then you must contract its antagonist while in the special stretch. Much of Ming Chew's methodology is based upon the research of his teacher, osteopath Guy Voyer.
The special stretches are very elaborate and tricky to achieve, as there are many steps involved, but I've found them to be effective.

Amazon.com: The Permanent Pain Cure: The Breakthrough Way to Heal Your Muscle and Joint Pain for Good (PB) (9780071627139): Ming Chew, Stephanie Golden: Books
 
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#73 ·
To the original poster: Don't sweat it. Last April my girlfriend ended up in the hospital with 2 herninated discs. She was bed ridden for a couple weeks and she went through months of epidermal shots, pain meds and nothing helped.

Eventually she stopped the epidermal shots and the pain meds and started exercising. That was a year ago and she's stronger than she was before. We saw a bunch of doctors and the last one said to get off the meds and go exercise. Keeping your core strong will support your spine. Her back still hurts on occasion but its about 90% better. She was back on skis and is still active.

Off all the people I've talked to with this issue most say to avoid surgery and keep yourself in shape and your back will heal.
 
#74 ·
VTSession said:
To the original poster: Don't sweat it. Last April my girlfriend ended up in the hospital with 2 herninated discs. She was bed ridden for a couple weeks and she went through months of epidermal shots, pain meds and nothing helped.

Eventually she stopped the epidermal shots and the pain meds and started exercising. That was a year ago and she's stronger than she was before. We saw a bunch of doctors and the last one said to get off the meds and go exercise. Keeping your core strong will support your spine. Her back still hurts on occasion but its about 90% better. She was back on skis and is still active.

Off all the people I've talked to with this issue most say to avoid surgery and keep yourself in shape and your back will heal.
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Arggg.. we ALL have herniated and bulging discs, well, at least most of us.. the body degenerates over time, its natural and normal and typically not the root of pain..
 
#75 · (Edited)
Back pain is not a normal aspect of aging as modern allopathic medicine leads us to believe or structurally related to your spinal discs in most cases.

It is usually a myofascial and posture issue that builds over time, from chronic bad posture, poor kinesthetic use of your body or from trauma like impacts, falls which stress the soft tissue into knots. Those knots are often what actually pull the discs. I would advise looking into trigger point therapy(to deal with myofascial knots in your muscle fibers)) and the Gokhale method(to improve posture and your use of your body). You can find info and books on these modalities(you often don't even have to pay your local library will likely carry it):
Trigger Point Therapy Workbook; Your Self-Treatment Guide for Pain Relief
Gokhale Method Institute |
Another aspect is often related to decreased flexibility in other areas like the hip which end up being compensated for by the back. This can be improved with various yoga postures(asanas).

Likely you will think what I wrote is bs, but ask yourself this, maybe a few months back you were not 100% fine, but you were coping somehow and still physically active. What, did your discs just expired in a few months time? Try not to believe in conventional doctors and their conventional orthodoxy. I don't see them helping people around me. I just see them allowing people to live with back pain for decades until they die, to cope with diabetes by pills or insulin shots till they die, etc. They don't have the answers, don't let the lack of solutions they offer demoralize or close your mind to other options that are far more promising and less drastic.
 
#76 ·
RoyFokker said:
Back pain is not a normal aspect of aging as modern allopathic medicine leads us to believe or structurally related to your spinal discs in most cases.

It is usually a myofascial and posture issue that builds over time, from chronic bad posture, poor kinesthetic use of your body or from trauma like impacts, falls which stress the soft tissue into knots. Those knots are often what actually pull the discs. I would advise looking into trigger point therapy(to deal with myofascial knots in your muscle fibers)) and the Gokhale method(to improve posture and your use of your body). You can info and books on these modalities(you often don't even have to pay your local library will likely carry it):
Trigger Point Therapy Workbook; Your Self-Treatment Guide for Pain Relief
Gokhale Method Institute |
Another aspect is often related to decreased flexibility in other areas like the hip which end up being compensated for by the back. This can be improved with various yoga postures(asanas).

Likely you will think what I wrote is bs, but ask yourself this, maybe a few months back you were not 100% fine, but you were coping somehow and still physically active. What, did your discs just expired in a few months time? Try not to believe in conventional doctors and their conventional orthodoxy. I don't see them helping people around me. I just see them allowing people to live with back pain for decades until they die, to cope with diabetes by pills or insulin shots till they die, etc. They don't have the answers, don't let the lack of solutions they offer demoralize or close your mind to other options that are far more promising and less drastic.
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While your post may contain good information, some of which has been clearly stated elsewhere in this thread albeit in different words, your assertion that the established medical profession has some sick interest in ignoring or exploiting an individual or a population's health issues is a load of total ****.

You should be ashamed of yourself for having even a vaguely sound understanding of the human body and yet dismissing thousands of years of experimental science, a commitment to healing and a standard of professional honour sadly beyond the capacity of your senseless conscience, Fokker
 
#77 ·
Ridnparadise said:
While your post may contain good information, some of which has been clearly stated elsewhere in this thread albeit in different words, your assertion that the established medical profession has some sick interest in ignoring or exploiting an individual or a population's health issues is a load of total ****.

You should be ashamed of yourself for having even a vaguely sound understanding of the human body and yet dismissing thousands of years of experimental science, a commitment to healing and a standard of professional honour sadly beyond the capacity of your senseless conscience, Fokker
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I agree with him though.. maybe you don't consider chiro's medical, but in my experiences they never did anything to fix the root of the problem.. 7 years after last chiro visit and at 43 I have never been better... and I know what my MRI "says"..
 
#78 · (Edited)
Ridnparadise, read more, ride less. So many times on mtb and cycling forums people say things like to get a full suspension or recumbent, a technical fix, when someone says their back, hip or whatever gets worse and worse, because of their beliefs created by medical orthodoxy, which state the body is supposed to break down when you get to 30+ years old. This young guy was only 23 when he was told his body inevitably broke down, and of course he is mentally exasperated at the prospect of a sedentary life! The medical system hardly gets at the root of chronic care problems. But it is very excellent for emergency care, I mean if I use a circular saw and chop off my fingers, provided I do things right on my part, they can sew it back. But for chronic care like this guy's back pain, I have never really seen a mainstream doctor really heal a person. People are taught to ignore that they never see their friends, family with bad backs, diabetes, high blood pressure ever get better under medical care, they just are helped to cope and adapt around it till death.

I know so many people that have had hip, arm, shoulder, knee, back surgeries and replacements that have failed and they still have the problems the surgery was supposed to correct.
 
#79 ·
Ridnparadise said:
While your post may contain good information, some of which has been clearly stated elsewhere in this thread albeit in different words, your assertion that the established medical profession has some sick interest in ignoring or exploiting an individual or a population's health issues is a load of total ****.

You should be ashamed of yourself for having even a vaguely sound understanding of the human body and yet dismissing thousands of years of experimental science, a commitment to healing and a standard of professional honour sadly beyond the capacity of your senseless conscience, Fokker
Click to expand...
You are also assuming there are no corrupt people in the medical field... really?
 
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