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Is the Downhill/Freeride 29er Dead?

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4.9K views 41 replies 28 participants last post by  modifier  
T
#1 ·
Walt (of Waltworks) mentioned on his blog that WTB discontinued the 29er Dissent and Kodiak tires. Still no Intense 2951. No long travel forks (160+) except the Manitou Dorado and the White Brothers Groove. Still just one stock frame - the Lenz PBJ.

What's going on? Now that 29ers are practically mainstream, it seems like the Big Wheel Revolution has stalled out. I've been dreaming of a nice 160mm fork for my WFO. Seems like it will never happen.

What do you guys think? Is it ever gonna happen? (The freeride or downhill 29er, not just the 160mm fork).
 
#8 · (Edited)
Why would a bigger wheel raise the center of gravity?

CG comes mostly from BB height, which is the same on 29ers as 26ers.

For technical reasons, the only reason I can think of for 29ers not to work as well for FR and DH is that you have to make room for a bigger wheel to travel more without making the bike a limousine and. DH folks tend to like their bikes shorter and snappier than that.

But really, I think the primary thing keeping 29ers from going big is the market. DHers riders keep talking about how 29ers suck. No company wants to spend a crapload of money on developing a bike that the don't think they have a market for, no matter how much better it can be.
 
#9 ·
WTB Dissents may not actually be dead. We will have to see.

The new Maxxis Minion 29er 2.5 DH tire looks as good or better from reports.

I'm building a DH 29er bike.

Someone has to win some big races on one for it to take off.
 
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#10 ·
This is an easy one. A 29 DH development program is a luxury for most manufacturers. I think things might get there someday but even if the bikes eventually become available the sales numbers will probably not make the investment worthwhile. It will be more of a "because it's cool" project than a solid financial strategy. A bike company's most popular model is rarely the big fat shuttle rig.

Not to mention the fit issues inherent to a DH bike with handlebars 1.5" higher than existing DH rigs... that will eliminate a lot of potential customers too. After riding a Dorado 29 it's my opinion that it would be tough to reap the benefits of a DH 29 unless you are at least 5'10 or so. Or unless you prefer to hang on rather than steer. :D


JMH
 
#11 ·
Not sure about the viability or interest in 29er DH's, but the AM/FR market is definitely pushing towards more 29" options. This review, from probably the biggest 29" opponent website out there, is case in point.

Every bike size out there has its place. We shouldn't be afraid to push the limits and plethora of choices, but should also understand why certain platforms work better than others for their respective categories. Now I have to go hop on my folding bike and see how it free-rides.
 
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#15 ·
I think the evolution of 29'' is going slowly, but it's unstoppable. This year the most interesting thing has been the evolution of geometry: Short chainstays and slacker headtubes make a lot of sense, and they are here to stay. Also, people is starting to realize that they need suspension. 29'' are not just for SS fully rigid bikes.

So before everyone start building 160 Forks, the 29'' XC FS market has to grow even more, and 130-140 Bikes need to start selling fast. 29'' +160 forks are probably going to be dual crowns so the Dorado is already a good option, I don't know why the OP doesn't like it...
 
T
#22 ·
For me personally, I really just want a 160mm single crown fork for my WFO. I still need to be able to pedal up hills on that bike. The Manitou is too expensive (looks like it's about $1900 at Universal) and double crown is too limiting for cockpit setup. Besides, what good is a fork if there are no tires to go with it? I keep hearing about the 29er Minion, but so far that just seems to be a rumor.

The only people that "need suspension" are crappy riders. I've seen way too many people rely on suspension instead of good handling skills. Rear suspension is really a waste unless you ride really rocky terrain or get massive air. I ride my hard tail SIR9 90% of the time and only pull out the WFO for the big stuff.
 
#16 ·
29ers are getting more popular every day in australia, I just bought a transition Bandit 29er frame that i'm building up with stans flows, 2x10 XO, rockshox revalation XX 29er forks. It's a pretty aggressive trail/AM geometry

20mm front axle 12x142mm rear also. My build is certainly not freeride but other than the WFO 9 I think this is one of the most agressive 29ers on the market!
 
C
#17 ·
we all know the pros and cons of 29er, and why they rock for a broad range of xc-am trails. so for these same reasons, i just see no point to pure fr-dh applications. fringe interest sure, genuine benefits? nah. that category is about as dialed as can possibly be, a new wheel format brings nothing to that table.
 
M
#18 ·
If I watch Danny Harts worlds run I can not see where 29 wheels would have made him faster.
I can not see him carve those hairpins a well as he did on the small wheels.
For me (XC) 29'rs make me feel so much safer going down hill.
 
#24 ·
I have a PBJ and yes, the 29er FR scene is not dead and will continue on. Things change and evolve.
Farm tractors are huge compared to ones 40 years ago. Hyundais don't suck like they did in 1984.
There aren't anymore payphones. Current pop and rock songs suck now. Only a few things stay the change: People who refuse to accept the 29 wheel evolution and dumbasses who still like to drink Budlight.
 
#26 ·
I always dig your videos, Mike- thanks for putting them in here. I read Walt's recent thoughts in another thread, about parks turning into lift-served BMX with super groomed trails. It was interesting comparing that to some of the recent chatter on threads and articles on NSMB, both on 29ers and on riding Shore trails w/ lighter bikes. It's kind of ironic that it seems people riding gnarly natural terrain are starting to see the possibilities in the larger wheel while parks get more and more polished.

I certainly hope the Minion DHF comes to market in 29". I'd buy them. I'd also like a +140mm single crown fork. A park bike is kind of a one-trick pony, and I'd love to try it sometime, but honestly, I haven't been able to. I'll probably give it a shot this next summer, though.
 
T
#27 ·
Even if the trend is towards smooth jump parks, there's still no reason not to make 29er long travel bikes. In fact, Livewire at Northstar is one of those jump and berm sort of trails and it gets really rutted out from braking. That's a perfect reason to use bigger wheels. I would argue that a bike like the Canfield Yelli Screamy might make more sense for jumping anyway - I had a blast jumping my SIR9 there even with its XC geometry. The only thing the rear travel helps with is when you overshoot a tabletop and come down hard. I used to have a Santa Cruz Bullitt and I would much rather jump the SIR9 - it was like jumping a big BMX bike compared to trying to get a tank airborne.

But regardless of trends, there must still be lots of gnarly stuff out there. Northstar is the only downhill place I've been to and it has lots of rocky terrain where a PBJ or a 2951 would be a blast.

Mike - I'm not too sure that the genre is here to stay if there's only frame (PBJ) and no tires. Hopefully you're right and things will turn around eventually and more people will see the light. But maybe people were saying that about 23 inch tires for motocross back when Honda introduced the idea (sometime around 1979).
 
#30 ·
Thor29 said:
Even if the trend is towards smooth jump parks, there's still no reason not to make 29er long travel bikes. In fact, Livewire at Northstar is one of those jump and berm sort of trails and it gets really rutted out from braking. That's a perfect reason to use bigger wheels. I would argue that a bike like the Canfield Yelli Screamy might make more sense for jumping anyway.

Mike - I'm not too sure that the genre is here to stay if there's only frame (PBJ) and no tires. Hopefully you're right and things will turn around eventually and more people will see the light. But maybe people were saying that about 23 inch tires for motocross back when Honda introduced the idea (sometime around 1979).
Click to expand...
You'd have to be ~20 years old and named Jinya to ride a HT at a bike park day after day after day. I'm twice that age and even with 7 and 7 I'm just barely hanging on at the end of the first day, and might make it to noon on the second before needing a nap, my binky, and a bottle of Flintstones.

I agree (and LOVE) that the trend is toward smoother and jumpier trails in the parks, but smooth is relative. Even on the buffed out jump lines you're going so fast, and covering so much ground/vert on each lap, that even if they're "relatively smooth" you're still filtering out thousands of small hits on each lap. Thus the toll adds up mid-day: wrecked hands, wrists, and ankles (depending on your propensity to case landings). The guys that are after the steep, natural gnar cover less ground, but it's rougher. IMO the end result is that you get equally beat up either way.

There are tires. Trust me. There's one killer frame (PBJ), several solid frames (I rode my LunchBox one day at Winter Park and was tickled with how well adapted it was), and several fork choices. And the trend in the industry has been toward 'more' the last ~year+. Only a matter of time til the big-hit equivalent of the '05 Reba hits the market and opens the floodgates.

MC
 
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#31 ·
The fact that the big names ( SC, Trek,...) have all committed to 26er carbon DH frames means that they don't believe in the 29er DH format. Trek has been testing 29er mules to make sure they were doing the right thing. I'm pro 29er too but for DH I don't see where it can bring advantages. There's nothing a 29er DH can do that you can't do on a 26er DH...
 
#34 ·
Definitely don't see a slow down in the evolution longer travel 29ers. Look at the crop of 5" bikes with slack head angles and short chain stays that came out this year. It is just a matter of time (like in a year or two I bet) before we see more 6" and 7" 29ers coming to the market. The forks are catching up and will continue to evolve as well. My RIP 9 with 140mm fork, dropper post and short stem already feels pretty aggressive on the downhills. Feels really fast and I don't think there is much, if any, high center of gravity issues.
 
#39 ·
I miss the small hop up shops...

... like Hanebrink and Girvin and others who stepped out of the box and took chances with sometimes outrageous ideas and inventions that fueled the 26er suspension movement(no pun intended)

Are we missing that with 29ers, just waiting for the big suspension manu's to step up to the plate?
 
#40 ·
Small players and big ideas are how 29ers got to this point, both in general and for big hit riding. White Brothers single-crown forks and the dual-crown Groove and the LenzSport AM and DH frames come to mind, having been available for a bunch of years now. What people are really looking for now are more easily available and more affordable options so that it can expand beyond an elite niche market, and that's where the big companies come in
 
#41 ·
This is true. I've seen 29ers evolve from small builder tweaky boutique hardtail frames with exactly one crappy suspension fork to really nicely decked out mass market bikes of all kinds, a wide variety of tires and rims. Now we're taking about... what is it? ... 40% of mountain bike sales in the US?

We have good bigger travel trail and FR bikes, 29ers form just about every mass market builder and things are only getting bigger, better and cheaper.

This is inside of 10 years! Progress, *bi' ches!!

It's only a matter of time before we see real 29er DH bikes. Tastes evolve. Heck, I remember when 2" of travel was considered a long travel DH bike, and if you didn't have Biopace rings on your bike, you were behind the times.

While there are those who Poopoo the idea because of this or that, it will happen and prove the naysayers wrong.
 
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