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Ibis HD vs Scott Genius LT

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ianthom

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
So....I was days away from pulling the trigger on a HD, and made the mistake of walking past my local bike shop- only to see they had the new Scott Genius LT's in the window, intriguing idea I thought, a bike that can change personalities with the flick of a lever, and then I made the mitake of giving it a test ride...ohh crap!
Now don't get me wrong, I am a huge ibis fan (i currentlly ride a tranny and a mojo) but the whole idea of the genius and the soon to be released cannondale claymore is pretty cool, and pretty invivitng- a bike this versitlie would be perfect for all mountain riders like myself, and it seems strange that Ibis haven't considered it- wouldn't the adjustable travel (and no I don't mean change the rear shock on the side of the trail adjustable) idea be perfect for Ibis? particularly when the whole lightweight bomber bike has been perfected by the HD- just imagine, a HD that could change personalties ON THE FLY!
I want to stay loyal to such a cool brand, I really do- but the scott is tempting me....
 
#3 ·
I ride a Mojo and an HD was on my short list for FR bikes. I ordered a Genius LTc frame not just for the adjustable shock but also for the extra inch of travel over the HD*, the 142 dropouts, 92mm BB, and ISCG tabs. Where was this shop that had one in stock? We don't know when my frame's gonna show up.

I'll concede that the shock is a question mark since it can't be replaced with anything else, it has no compression adjusters, and Push doesn't want to play with it. I sure hope I like how it feels! It's made by DT and their US headquarters are nearby so I'm not too worried about it.

Only other niggle with the Scott is I don't like such slack seat tube angles. I guess the saddle's gonna be forward when it's down or back when it's up.

*This bike is replacing a Bullit so the HD and Nomadc just seemed too short on travel.
 
#4 ·
I am always a bit skeptical about a bike that changes its personality too much. I am of the mind that you commit to something and then proceed to extract every bit of performance out of it. You get used to its feel and quirks.
As a side note, I think the best way to change a personality of a bike is by tire choice. Slap some beefy downhill casing tires for goin crazy and then throw on some lighter weight fast rolling treads for long xc type rides.
 
#5 ·
Yeah, bar and seat position changes make a big difference too... of course, none of these changes can be done with the flip of a lever, but personally I'd choose the HD 101 times out of 100. Scott's suspension design needs that kind of complicated/dedicated adjustable shock to avoid being a wallowy mush machine at full travel, I'll bet.... DW bikes have no such short coming, so there's really no need to shorten the travel for climbing.
Opinions may vary on the Scott thread
 
#6 ·
doismellbacon said:
Yeah, bar and seat position changes make a big difference too... of course, none of these changes can be done with the flip of a lever, but personally I'd choose the HD 101 times out of 100. Scott's suspension design needs that kind of complicated/dedicated adjustable shock to avoid being a wallowy mush machine at full travel, I'll bet.... DW bikes have no such short coming, so there's really no need to shorten the travel for climbing.
Opinions may vary on the Scott thread
Click to expand...
Nicely worded :thumbsup:
 
#7 · (Edited)
Suspension and geometry were two key things for me when I was trying to decide on a new bike. Went with the HD because I loved its suspension and found it did everything I wanted well. The Genius has a very different geo and suspension to the HD so it should ride very different.

The slack seat tube would be something I would want to try on the climbs (did not like it on the Enduro) and I would really want to play with the shared damping circuit between modes per the Zinn review:

http://singletrack.competitor.com/2...itor.com/2010/06/gear-and-tech/scott’s-new-long-travel-rig-is-sheer-genius_8885

"Due to the shared damping circuit in the Full mode, the damping will always be a compromise between climbing and descending performance. If you tighten up on the rebound so it climbs better in Traction mode (when it is only using one rebound circuit), you will also tighten up the rebound in descending mode. You must adjust both rebound adjusters in tandem, so they are not separated by more than a click in adjustment, as I explained above. A slow rebound for climbing is fine, but too slow a rebound on successive bumps will cause packing in (progressively reduced travel). Furthermore, the compression damping, which you cannot adjust, also is not separate in the two modes. So a lot of compression damping to counteract pedal-induced bobbing will be too harsh when landing a big drop; you want to move deeply into the travel but quick in that situation!

The low compression and rebound damping to get decent downhill performance would then compromise pedaling performance in the Traction mode. And while full lockout is great on smooth climbs, it's inefficient for rough ones (since your center of mass will be going up and down over every bump, rather than moving along parallel to the slope while the bike absorbs the bumps), so you need the Traction mode to also work for climbing."

Have never ridden the Genius so I would be curious how you found it was suspension and geo wise.

-Shane
 
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#8 ·
My problem with the original genius was the bottom bracket height. Demo Rode it a few times and no matter what, always got pedal strike on stuff that I would normally pedal right over without a problem...

It otherwise felt pretty good, but climbing with the shock on full travel mode made me feel like i was loosing a lot of power in pedal bob. The adjustable suspension isn't just nice, its necessary..
 
#9 ·
I'll echo the thoughts above.
I don't even really think that travel-adjust for forks are all that great. I'll take well-designed, well-tuned and controlled suspension at full travel over compromised adjustable suspension any day. Seems to me that travel-adjust features are a band-aid solution to the real problem: inefficient/ineffective design combined with unrealistic application.
 
#10 ·
To each his own, but travel adjust forks have revolutionized my riding. All three of my bikes have'em. Without the ability to shorten to 4" for climbs I could never have a 6" fork on a competitive XC race bike. My last FR bike had a 6.3" fork, but the travel adjust was so effective at dropping the front end for climbs that I'm putting a 7" on the new one. I'd never want to climb out of Breckenridge with that tall a fork so travel adjust is a necessity to be able to trail ride such a DH style bike. Even my DH bike's fork can drop down to 6". This doesn't get used as much as the others but was useful when it was the only bike I had on a roadtrip through the PacNW. Combined with a chainring and seatpost swap it let me do several days of XC riding on a V10!

Now in the rear, travel adjust doesn't make as much difference. However, the ability to stiffen the suspension and reduce sag (whether with damping or spring changes) does help shift your weight forward and makes a slack bike feel better on flats and climbs, regardless of how bob-resistant the suspension is. Even on the Mojo SL it's obviously more efficient on steep climbs with ProPedal engaged.
 
#13 ·
Lelandjt said:
To each his own, but travel adjust forks have revolutionized my riding. All three of my bikes have'em. Without the ability to shorten to 4" for climbs I could never have a 6" fork on a competitive XC race bike.
Click to expand...
So why would you want a 6" fork on your competitive XC race bike? Just asking. My competitive XC race bike has a 100mm fork, but it's a Fox so it really only gets about 80mm of travel.

Lelandjt said:
I'd never want to climb out of Breckenridge with that tall a fork so travel adjust is a necessity to be able to trail ride such a DH style bike. Even my DH bike's fork can drop down to 6". This doesn't get used as much as the others but was useful when it was the only bike I had on a roadtrip through the PacNW. Combined with a chainring and seatpost swap it let me do several days of XC riding on a V10!
Click to expand...
So.. I'm seriously not trying to be an A-hole, but it's too easy to resist. Why would you do several days of XC riding on a V10 if you have all these other, arguably better riding bikes at your disposal? That is purely rhetorical.. maybe I am something of an A-hole :D . Anyway.. I know we disagree on this but I really have no problem climbing with my 170mm Lyrik out of anywhere, breck included. Travel-adjust will always represent heavy, clunky, complex, spring-altering clutter as far as I'm concerned.

Oh well... this topic seems to pop up often in here. We'll re-hash it all next week.
 
#15 ·
BunnV said:
Sooooo, does this mean you don't like my FOX TALAS? It's been PUSHED! :D
Click to expand...
That's exactly what I mean! (Unless your mod included removal of the travel-adjust and installation of a FLOAT spring). :thumbsup:

From Push's website:

"Unlike a standard air fork, the TALAS forks utilize a very complex air cartridge located in the left leg. Whereas a FLOAT fork has a single chamber and one air seal, the TALAS utilizes multiple chambers and more than 30 seals!"
 
#17 ·
subliminalshiver said:
Why would you do several days of XC riding on a V10 if you have all these other, arguably better riding bikes at your disposal?
Click to expand...
"It was the only bike I had on a roadtrip through the PacNW."
We flew into Seattle and rented a van. I could only bring one bike and DH was the priority. We both brought an extra smaller chainring and longer seatpost. Despite having taller, gearing I got along better on the XC days than my friend on a Boxxer.

subliminalshiver said:
So why would you want a 6" fork on your competitive XC race bike?
Click to expand...
Cuz I still like racing Pro XC but I don't like riding XC bikes. My Mojo is efficient enough to let me keep up on climbs, but a lot faster and more fun on descents. I used to avoid my XC bike on non race days and usually chose my Bullit. Now I race and train on the same bike.

I know some people dislike the complexity of travel adjust, and the Ibis forum is home to many "set it and forget it" type riders. I'm offering the counterpoint of its benefits. As for bikes becoming slow pedaling when the fork is lowered, why? My Mojo takes on the geometry of an XC bike. When I hit a pavement section I drop the fork and flip the Pro-Pedal. When racing in a pack my bike doesn't appear any slower, except that I usually run slower tires.
 
#18 ·
sorry to side track a little...

Yody,
Your comment about HD with 120mm pedalling slow/heavy on flat terrain. Does it apply to HD 140 as well? If yes, aftermarket Fox Talas 32 or RS Revelation (150/120mm) wud be a matching issue then.
 
#19 ·
dolp2898 said:
sorry to side track a little...

Yody,
Your comment about HD with 120mm pedalling slow/heavy on flat terrain. Does it apply to HD 140 as well? If yes, aftermarket Fox Talas 32 or RS Revelation (150/120mm) wud be a matching issue then.
Click to expand...
Pretty much any bike will get that feeling when the front end is significantly dropped and you pedal it around on flat terrain. This is missing the point, however. As soon as you point the bike uphill, the sensation disappears, and the bike has a much more efficient feel to it than if you were to leave it at full travel.

The more travel that you have at either end, the more significant the difference.

I've ridden and owned numerous FS frames and travel adjust forks, including a 100-120-140 and 110-130-150 TALAS on the Mojo, and for my riding style and local terrain, I would not want to be without the ability to drop the front end on the climbs. I'm with Lelandjt on this one. I also lament the fact that the TALAS has gone to a two step, rather than the old 3 step. The lowest setting is great for those super steep walls, the middle setting is great for rolling (but climbing) singletrack, and the longest setting works well for fast flats, cruising, and downhill.

Even though the Mojo suspension is inherently a pretty efficient design, there is a significant difference in pedaling performance when the rear shock has a strong propedal setting and/or lockout. Most folks don't get to experience it due to the low PP tune that comes on stock RP23s.

Many of the guys that I ride with don't share the same sentiment, since they take a more leisurely approach to climbs, they come from a different riding background, and they tend to avoid routes that involve extended gut busting walls that make you want to puke. They are also a little more gravity oriented, and their bikes are set up accordingly. When on those rides, at that pace, I often don't use the travel or propedal as much, if at all.

-D
 
#20 ·
Mojo uses antisquat to create efficency from the pedal strokes (chain growth) when you slam the front you're putting more weight on the front tire and unweighting the rear. When you unweight the rear you're not getting into the sag as much and the bike does not have the same amount of antisquat which instantly makes the bike feel sluggish.

When pointed uphill its a moot point.

However this is why I like the 2 adjustment Talas Forks in 2011. You ride it on full travel all the time and then when theres a steep extended climb you drop it one click. I would not advise trying to ride any Mojo around with a Talas or travel adjust cranked way in, trying to achieve XC race geometry because of this reason. Only use it for the steeper climbs

IMO
 
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