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SWriverstone

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
I'm a relative newbie to adjusting derailleurs...but I decided to tackle it this morning as my Deore XT-equipped HiFi Pro has been shifting like crap lately.

I've been following what appears to be an excellent guide to adjusting derailleurs by Park Tool...
http://www.parktool.com/repair/readhowto.asp?id=64

I figure these guys know what they're doing. I first let all the tension out of the inner wire (as instructed by Park Tool) and carefully set the low- and high-limit screws. No problem there, that went smoothly.

Then (again, according to the Park Tool instructions) I shifted to my smallest cog (and outermost chainring) and checked the shift to the next innermost cog. It didn't happen (of course, 'cause I'd let all the tension out of the wire)...so Park Tool said to add 2 full turns of tension at the barrel adjuster by the shifter, then try the shift again. Still didn't shift, but closer. Park Tool said keep tensioning the inner wire in 1/4-turn increments until the shift happens. I did, and it did.

Then Park Tool said to shift to the 2nd smallest cog...then keep adding tension to the inner wire (in 1/4-turn increments) until I heard rubbing noise...then back off. The basic procedure called for shifting inward one cog at a time, increasing tension, then backing off (but not going all the way to the innermost cog with the chain on the outermost chainring, obviously).

This is when things got completely random. No matter what I do with inner wire tension, I keep getting random results, mostly when shifting back down to the smaller cogs.

For example, I'd shift up (to a larger cog) with one click...but then clicking once to reverse (shift back to a smaller cog) nothing would happen. So I'd click a 2nd time, and the shift would happen.

This is why I started going nuts. Even after riding this bike for a year, I don't think I have a solid baseline for what my shifters and derailleur are SUPPOSED to do (e.g. what's NORMAL?)

THE BIG QUESTION: With a Deore XT derailleur, should there be a 1-to-1 ratio between "UP" clicks (of the shifter) and "DOWN" clicks? Or is it normal to click once to shift to a larger cog (up)...but then have to click TWICE to shift back to the next smallest cog?

What makes it all more maddening is that I realize it's normal (I think) to have to press the shift lever a little ways PAST the "click" when shifting to larger cogs. Park Tool even says this, saying that every bike and derailleur differs in this regard (in terms of how far past the "click" you might have to go to make the shift happen).

But what I don't know is how far past the "click" is normal?

It's all frustrating because it's so difficult to achieve some kind of 100% repeatable actions.

Any tips are much appreciated!
Scott
 
I will answer your questions with some more questions :)

Is there a lot of resistance when you click the shift lever? When was the last time you replaced the cables and housings? Is your derailleur hanger straight? Are any of your cogs bent?

All three things above can affect shifting, especially the cable and housings.
 
Discussion starter · #4 ·
I'm confident saying that everything is fine---at least I'm 90% sure. The bike is only a year old, and I've never crashed it or damaged it in any way. It's a Gary Fisher, and I'm *assuming* the LBS assembled it correctly.

Scott
 
SWriverstone said:
I'm confident saying that everything is fine---at least I'm 90% sure. The bike is only a year old, and I've never crashed it or damaged it in any way. It's a Gary Fisher, and I'm *assuming* the LBS assembled it correctly.
A hanger can get bent relatively easily. It doesn't have to be an obvious knock or scrape, it can done simply by laying the bike over on the drive-side onto a lump of grass. Given your level of knowledge, you probably aren't able to say for sure that what you've done is correct, so you find yourself somewhat at the mercy of a trial and error method of learning and really not in a position to assume, not that it's ever a good idea. It's wise to carry a spare hanger in your pack, just in case you get a knock while you're out, so I'd suggest that you get one now and either eliminate it from the equation (and have your spare hanger for the future), or find out that it is to blame (and buy another for your pack!!).

What condition is your chain in? Well lubed?
 
When an RD that had been working starts getting funky it's usually a bent hanger if the change is sudden, or cable friction if it degrades slowly over time.

It's too late now, but a solid indicator of a bent hanger is a sudden change in the trim adjustment, almost always inward, matched by change in the both limit positions. As the others have said, check the hanger before going farther, especially if you see any scrapes on the outer parts of the RD.

Also check that your cables are running smoothly. You can do so by upshifting one gear (to a smaller sprocket) from any middle gear. Note the trim, then firmly pluck the bare wire away from the down tube like a guitar string. If that changes trim, or completes a shift that had been hanging, you have cable friction and need to strip can lube the cables, or possibly replace them.

Lastly, not causing your problem, but costing you too many turns of the adjuster, here's a better way to connect the wire without excess slack. Turn the trim adjust all the way in and back out one 1 turn. Shift between one to three sprockets by pressing the lower body so that when you let go, the RD hangs lined up with the second sprocket. Return the shifter to high gear, pullout the slack and connect the wire. Pedal and the RD should drop to high, if not, you did too good a job pulling out the slack, see if the adjuster can help, or try again, but leave a bit more slack.

Now shift the lever to 2nd to high gear (1 click) and while pedaling turn the adjuster until the chain shifts. You should now be fairly spot on for the other shifts and just need to fine tune the trim.
 
SWriverstone said:
I'm confident saying that everything is fine---at least I'm 90% sure. The bike is only a year old, and I've never crashed it or damaged it in any way. It's a Gary Fisher, and I'm *assuming* the LBS assembled it correctly.

Scott
That's a big assumption. Assuming you have a top-normal derailleur (derailleur is positioned at the smallest cog when no cable is attached), if you can shift to a larger cog without a problem and then nothing happens when shift to a lower cog, it sounds like the cable could be dragging and not letting the derailleur move freely. That aside, I would try turning your barrel adjuster a full turn clockwise and see if the same thing happens. Then report back.
 
Discussion starter · #8 ·
Thanks for the good input everyone (valuable knowledge that I'll use in the future).

I took the bike to a friend in our bike club who is a better mechanic than most of the guys at the LBS...we looked it over together, and turns out the problem was a severely binding cable. It just wasn't sliding through the housing for outward shifts (to smaller cogs)...hence they weren't happening normally.

So with his help, I replaced the entire rear derailleur cable and housing, and lubed the new cable.

HOLY SH*T!!! :eek: The bike is suddenly shifting better than it ever has since the day I got it! I was absolutely astounded at the difference. Not only is it shifting flawlessly now (in both directions)...but the shift lever is immensely easier to use (I was half-breaking my thumb trying to shift to the largest cog before...now it's effortless.)

So the lesson for me (and others) was...always be sure your cables are sliding like a greased pig inside their housings!

I don't know how often people typically change cables...nor do I know whether lubing cables is considered standard practice...but I really believe that the lubed cable (in addition to it being new) makes shifting suddenly feel "electric" compared to an even normally-functioning non-lubed cable.

But I'll keep an eye on the derailleur hanger too in the future...just in case. :thumbsup:

Scott
 
Glad to hear you got it worked out :)

FYI I never lube my cables and use a lined cable housing, and my shifts smooth like butter. The only thing I would be wary about with lube is that it will attract dirt, and if you get dirt in your housing, that would drag like it did before you replaced it.
 
Discussion starter · #10 ·
Lined cable housing? Never heard of it, but makes sense. I guess you mean "lined" as in there is some kind of slippery teflon coating inside the housing?

Sadly, it seems that MTB cables (at least if you often ride through mud) are doomed to get munged up inside the housings no matter what...but I'll have to look into the lined cable housing.

Scott
 
Most half-decent gear cable has a plastic sleeve running through it.

The only real solution for keeping crap out of the gear line is to either run a full length of outer cable or use a set with (properly) sealed sections between the cable stops. Gore RideOn cable systems are excellent. Goodridge cables also use a plastic cover between stops, but the Gore cables are much smoother.

EDIT: I'll to this and repeat what Bubba said about lubing cables. Unless you can get a heavier grease - like Shimano's SP41 - injected into it, you'll find that lube will dry out quite quickly and become thicker and less effective as a lubricant. Especially in outer split into sections, it will also collect any dirt which makes its way past the ferrules and start bunging up the cables. Much depends on the type of dirt/dust you typically ride in, but eventually you'll find that cable performance has been (unnecessarily) deteriorated.
 
Discussion starter · #12 ·
Thanks for the continued good advice.

A quick prologue—after replacing the rear derailleur cable (and after it was shifting flawlessly)...I did a 9-mile XC race yesterday (the 2nd Cranky Monkey race at Schaeffer Farm near Germantown, MD).

The race started out fine—bike was shifting beautifully—but sure enough, the damned thing started skipping cogs on downshifts (shifting to harder gears) and acting somewhat erratic.

AARGH.

I do realize that new cables "stretch," though I use the quotation marks because while reading a FAQ on the Jagwire website, I read something that basically asserted that the steel cables themselves don't stretch (at least not perceptibly)...but that the "stretch" is actually the cable ends seating down into the housings/caps.

Don't know if it's true or not...but *something* happened to cause the bike to start shifting crappy again.

It might well have been more mud and grit got back down into the cable housing again...and the cable started binding again.

I think I'm gonna go all out (regardless of cost) and do a full replacement of both derailleur cables with sealed cable housings. At least that seems to be the only way to assure shifting stays smooth as silk even riding through mud and water...

This is getting annoying...and I'm starting to wonder if it's possible for ANY MTB derailleur to shift flawlessly, under load, 100% of the time?

In other words...WHERE'S THE BAR? Do some of you have derailleurs that shift flawlessly 100% of the time, even riding through mud, even while you're putting enormous pressure on the cranks? (Yeah, I know you're not supposed to do that...just wondering if ALL derailleurs shift like crap if you shift under significant load?)

I'm still just trying to figure out what "normal" is for a properly tuned derailleur???

Scott
 
Sluggish or sloppy downshifts, which depend on the RD return spring, are a classic indicator of housing friction.

A quick test will confirm the diagnosis.

After downshifting, pluck the bare wire away from the downtube like a guitar string. If the RD completes the shift and now trims correctly after the added tension pulled all the wire down it's definitely housing or lever mechanism friction. Lever problems are rare so start with the housings.

With good care housings can stay fairly clean and friction free for a long time. Riding conditions, especially mud are more of a problem in the stay-to-RD loop so you might save spare short lengths to replace just this loop more often. The longer h-bar to frame sections are higher, and open downward so they take longer to get contaminated.

In answer to your last question, excellent performance for a long time is normal. There's no reason you have to accept anything short of that.
 
SWriverstone said:
Thanks for the continued good advice.

A quick prologue-after replacing the rear derailleur cable (and after it was shifting flawlessly)...I did a 9-mile XC race yesterday (the 2nd Cranky Monkey race at Schaeffer Farm near Germantown, MD).

The race started out fine-bike was shifting beautifully-but sure enough, the damned thing started skipping cogs on downshifts (shifting to harder gears) and acting somewhat erratic.

AARGH.

I do realize that new cables "stretch," though I use the quotation marks because while reading a FAQ on the Jagwire website, I read something that basically asserted that the steel cables themselves don't stretch (at least not perceptibly)...but that the "stretch" is actually the cable ends seating down into the housings/caps.

Don't know if it's true or not...but *something* happened to cause the bike to start shifting crappy again.

It might well have been more mud and grit got back down into the cable housing again...and the cable started binding again.

I think I'm gonna go all out (regardless of cost) and do a full replacement of both derailleur cables with sealed cable housings.They work okay can be a bit draggy At least that seems to be the only way to assure shifting stays smooth as silk even riding through mud and water...not true

This is getting annoying...and I'm starting to wonder if it's possible for ANY MTB derailleur to shift flawlessly, under load, 100% of the time?Well my XTR does

In other words...WHERE'S THE BAR? Do some of you have derailleurs that shift flawlessly 100% of the time, even riding through mud, even while you're putting enormous pressure on the cranks? Yup(Yeah, I know you're not supposed to do that...just wondering if ALL derailleurs shift like crap if you shift under significant load?)Well I only try to shift the rear underload

I'm still just trying to figure out what "normal" is for a properly tuned derailleur???

Scott
Properly tuned and maintained Drive train will shift flawlessly, every time...unless you make a mistake shifting...

Properly tuned maintained Drive Train will shift flawlessly, every time...in mud, snow, slush etc...unless you make a mistake shifting...

Properly tuned maintained Drive Train will only need adjustment say once every two months....unless you don;t maintain it properly...

Chain suck will occur in mud and gunk if the chain is not lubed properly.

I finally got to this point with the XTR cable set with the rubber boots.

I switch wheels twice weekly cause I have a commuter set for the roads, con't change the tune.

My dropouts are worn out, I use beer can shims to maintain the alignment, if theyshift or fall out....it will shift poorly til I put new shims back in.

Stay at it you will get there, but you have to be systematic about it, if the cable is binding then the cable must be fixed, get an RD hanger measurer, that is how I found out how many shims I need in the dropouts.
 
Here is my list of gotchas for adjusting rear derailleurs:

1. Bent hanger.
2. Cable clamped on wrong side of anchor bolt.
3. Housing ends frayed and/or ferrules not fully seated.
4. Outer plastic housing pulled back from inner wire housing.
5. On full-sus bikes, housing incorrectly routed so when suspension moves, the derailleur shifts.
 
Hey old thread, but I had a similar problem with Deore XT rear derailleur. I followed most guides to the T and then took my bike to LBS. LBS is fantastic and Chris had it working perfectly in under two minutes. He told me that I should have left a bit more slack in the cable when tightening it down. That was pretty much it. So if your having an issue try backing off a tiny bit on the cable tension. That's what my problem was.
 
Here is my list of gotchas for adjusting rear derailleurs:

1. Bent hanger.
2. Cable clamped on wrong side of anchor bolt.
3. Housing ends frayed and/or ferrules not fully seated.
4. Outer plastic housing pulled back from inner wire housing.
5. On full-sus bikes, housing incorrectly routed so when suspension moves, the derailleur shifts.
Cable clamped on wrong side of anchor bolt - who'd have thought, but it worked.

I can't believe I've been trying to fix this for weeks. Cable on wrong side of bolt causes friction as you move through the gears.

Thanks for the great tip.

 
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