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#21 ·
Mr.SJ said:
Uh, bad story. Next to some good traits latex tubes also can (in very rare cases) explode, that´s the reason for some riders to go back to xxlight butyls, which is just 1 Watt more rolling resistance, but means less puncture resistance (may be better with some sealant).

Anyway, I´m waiting for the new tubes.
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I am pretty involved in the race scene. When I look around the pits at a world cup I see only one team putting tubes in their bikes. Everybody else uses tubeless even those who are suppose to use tubes use tubeless.

Honestly I would like to use a tube, I hate changing tubeless tires. But I am yet to find a tube that allows me to run 20 psi without flatting five times a ride. (OK DH tubes work, but the weight more than my tires).
 
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#22 ·
LMN said:
Honestly I would like to use a tube, I hate changing tubeless tires. But I am yet to find a tube that allows me to run 20 psi without flatting five times a ride. (OK DH tubes work, but the weight more than my tires).
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So far I've had good experience running the insanely expensive Eclipse 56gms tubes, they are very resistant to pinch flats running Conti Race King 2.2 SS's at 25-28psi (I'm 195 lbs) on DT XRC330 rims. I've whacked the rim hard enough on rocks and roots to worry about the rim surviving with no tube issues. I have had blackberry thorn punctures with the thin carcass RK's, but they are very slow, like they take overnight to leak down, and are easily patched with their patch kits. I had a 50% failure rate on the first purchase of the new tubes but they were replaced on warranty and have had no issues with the replacement tubes or the other pair that I purchased.

The Eclipse tubes have no hysteresis, they roll incredibly fast, they take a while to stretch out in a big volume tire.
 
#23 ·
BushwackerinPA said:
they run **** tires.

what cost are you speaking off? I am running tubeless for the cost of a roll of gorilla tape, and tubeless valve stems. On non tubeless wheels with non tubeless tires. I have not had a flat in 3 years and I ride 10+ hours a week on some of the rockiest terrain in the county.

my theory is those who dont run tubeless are just to damn stupid to figure it out.

The problem with test is this, I can ride trails fastest at about 25 psi, with tubes this would mean I would pinch flat every mile, with tubeless I have ridden about 4000 miles with out a single flat of any type.
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First: I won´t write about those using tubes (may be for some reason;) ) that they are "just damn stupid to figure it out" without being acquainted to them. Makes simply no sense.

I have run tubeless, installed by me or a mechanic, and I am not convinced. So I went back to tubes. But I accept those running with it.

I am running my tubes (and racing with) front with 1.5 bar and rear with 1.8-2.0 bar (depends on the terrain). Within the last 50.000k with tubes again I have had 3 flats. These flats would have been also a real test for tubeless systems, I guess. Costs for the last 50.000k: 3 tubes and of course a few tires, that´s all. The flat statistics isn´t that bad, I think, and it doesn´t bother me.

How much sealent has to be used for 50.000k
 
#25 ·
I really don't understand why people think tubeless cost that much more. It's literally like $50 for tape, stems, and sealant and then maybe you spend 20 bucks on sealant a year. Best bang-for-your-buck performance enhancement you can do to your bike IMHO.
 
#26 ·
LMN said:
Honestly I would like to use a tube, I hate changing tubeless tires. But I am yet to find a tube that allows me to run 20 psi without flatting five times a ride. (OK DH tubes work, but the weight more than my tires).
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This is really difficult, and I tested a lot of variants, and I am still not sure which is the best way to ride. As mentioned above, tubeless offers a few pros, but unfortunately there is no 100%-guarantee that running tubeless with 20psi helps to avoid flats, punctures, rim damage etc.

Once again the chosen tire is the limiting factor in the game. First I would never go out riding again with a tire size smaller than 2.2. We all know: high volume = very low pressure possible, even with tubes. Meanwhile it seems also to be clear, that the general trend to install the lightest tire for race purposes must not be the best solution.

I had a few problems with superlight tires being installed tubeless (stability and also puncture resistance due to low pressure), I am feeling more controlled with tubes. Meanwhile I think "light enough" is better than "as light as possible". I was pretty surprised and lucky with the combo Smart Sam Evo rear + xxlight tubes (or latex tubes) compared to a much lighter setup used before.
 
#27 ·
Mr.SJ said:
This is really difficult, and I tested a lot of variants, and I am still not sure which is the best way to ride. As mentioned above, tubeless offers a few pros, but unfortunately there is no 100%-guarantee that running tubeless with 20psi helps to avoid flats, punctures, rim damage etc.

Once again the chosen tire is the limiting factor in the game. First I would never go out riding again with a tire size smaller than 2.2. We all know: high volume = very low pressure possible, even with tubes. Meanwhile it seems also to be clear, that the general trend to install the lightest tire for race purposes must not be the best solution.

I had a few problems with superlight tires being installed tubeless (stability and also puncture resistance due to low pressure), I am feeling more controlled with tubes. Meanwhile I think "light enough" is better than "as light as possible". I was pretty surprised and lucky with the combo Smart Sam Evo rear + xxlight tubes (or latex tubes) compared to a much lighter setup used before.
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It is great that you have had that success with tubes. As I said I wish I could get them to work.

You should recognize that your success is not normal. Most people who have used both have much more success with tubeless. For myself it is quite dramatic. I dropped my air pressure by 15psi and reduced by rate of flat tires by about 90%.

Yes, tires make a different. But superlight tires are always prone to flat, doesn't matter if you run them with tubes or tubeless.
 
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#29 ·
LMN said:
It is great that you have had that success with tubes. As I said I wish I could get them to work.

You should recognize that your success is not normal. Most people who have used both have much more success with tubeless. For myself it is quite dramatic. I dropped my air pressure by 15psi and reduced by rate of flat tires by about 90%.

Yes, tires make a different. But superlight tires are always prone to flat, doesn't matter if you run them with tubes or tubeless.
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LMN, you are right likely. Perhaps I am just a lucky guy with my tubes.

As I said Schwalbe for example is testing new materials for tubes. Let´s hope successfully.
 
#30 ·
In less harsh words when BushwackerinPA used, but once you try tubeless in real terrain, yo will never go back.

I used tubeless about 6 years ago for the first time and I cannot imagine using tubes again. When I ride I bike with tubes, no matter how good they are, I feel as if I was using cheap 1kg tires.

-------------------------------------------

Another step ahead are tubulars, those have many downsides though.
 
#32 ·
Yep, 2 years and I'm still one of those "stupid" guys running tubes who in 10 years has never had a pinch flat. I get the whole better traction aspect of tubeless but I am hard pressed to accept that riding on way underinflated squishy tires is somehow magically faster than properly inflated clinchers. Suspension robs the rider of speed and power (in theory) that's why lockout exists. Underinflated, soft tires don't have the same effect? This is a serious question from someone who has never tried tubeless, not trolling.:D
 
#33 ·
No, "under-inflated" soft tires don't have the same effect because they stop the bike from boucing around. They grab better, are way more comfortable and provide great traction. I used to race with 40lbs in my tires. Now I know that that slowed me down because everything was shaking out of control!!! I ride tubeless on the mountain and on the road.
 
#34 ·
Johnnydrz said:
No, "under-inflated" soft tires don't have the same effect because they stop the bike from boucing around. They grab better, are way more comfortable and provide great traction. I used to race with 40lbs in my tires. Now I know that that slowed me down because everything was shaking out of control!!! I ride tubeless on the mountain and on the road.
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That is 100% right.

Rolling resistance decreases with pressure when going on fast easy tracks.

Rolling resistance increases with pressure when terrain gets really rough.

When using less pressure on difficult terrain, you literally flat obstacles down, thus increasing comfort, tracking, speed etc.

I personally hardly ever pump over 2 bars, weighing 73kg. Usually I use 1,8 front and 2,0 in back on Tubeless.

Some of the roadies that I do MTB with during winter time will never agree with me, but this is exactly the reason why they will never go fast in difficult terrain.
 
#35 ·
robc in wi said:
Yep, 2 years and I'm still one of those "stupid" guys running tubes who in 10 years has never had a pinch flat. I get the whole better traction aspect of tubeless but I am hard pressed to accept that riding on way underinflated squishy tires is somehow magically faster than properly inflated clinchers. Suspension robs the rider of speed and power (in theory) that's why lockout exists. Underinflated, soft tires don't have the same effect? This is a serious question from someone who has never tried tubeless, not trolling.:D
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Most "studies" will disagree. It does seem odd at first, but it is true that often a lower psi will roll faster than high psi on bumpy/rocky terrain.

Bouncing all over the place really slows you down and a lower psi helps to minimize this. An exagerrated example of high psi would be trying to ride a wooden tire/wheel over rocky terrain...not good!

NOTE: Both extremes, whether too high or too low will lead to problems and loss of rolling speed... Find the sweet spot with regards to proper psi and you will find that your bike is faster than ever..

.02
 
#36 ·
I've found latex tubes to be a viable alternative to tubeless on my CX Racer/Commuter bike. I don't have to worry about the sealant drying out, an they've been really flat resistant, on par with the tubeless setup I had. Overally I still prefer tubeless if the setup isn't too challenging.

I hate riding butyl tubes since I went tubeless, they ride is dead and they roll slowly, but I really can't tell a difference between tubeless and latex.

Latex tubes make poor race spares though, because they are hard to place correctly when in a hurry (with no twists and not between the hook and bead).
 
#37 ·
brentos said:
I've found latex tubes to be a viable alternative to tubeless on my CX Racer/Commuter bike. I don't have to worry about the sealant drying out, an they've been really flat resistant, on par with the tubeless setup I had. Overally I still prefer tubeless if the setup isn't too challenging.

I hate riding butyl tubes since I went tubeless, they ride is dead and they roll slowly, but I really can't tell a difference between tubeless and latex.

Latex tubes make poor race spares though, because they are hard to place correctly when in a hurry (with no twists and not between the hook and bead).
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Wow, this thread is still alive.
Emergency case: butyl, just to finish a race or to come home.
Everyday use: tubeless/latex, whatever you like.

I still think like brentos latex tubes work fine for xc purposes.
 
#38 ·
Mr.SJ said:
Wow, this thread is still alive.
Emergency case: butyl, just to finish a race or to come home.
Everyday use: tubeless/latex, whatever you like.

I still think like brentos latex tubes work fine for xc purposes.
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you are a coward. SierraJim negative rep under the guise of being anonymous? either debate in public, and stop trying to discredit someone who....

knows more than you
out rides you
out skis you
and will always be above you, and the only reason I am calling you out is so you can stop being a dick to a bunch of people who actually ride MTBs and race them at elite levels. go back to gapicski.
 
#39 ·
BushwackerinPA said:
you are a coward. SierraJim negative rep under the guise of being anonymous? either debate in public, and stop trying to discredit someone who....

knows more than you
out rides you
out skis you
and will always be above you, and the only reason I am calling you out is so you can stop being a dick to a bunch of people who actually ride MTBs and race them at elite levels. go back to gapicski.
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:yikes:

Where is the popcorn smiley when you need it...
 
#40 ·
BushwackerinPA said:
you are a coward. SierraJim negative rep under the guise of being anonymous? either debate in public, and stop trying to discredit someone who....

knows more than you
out rides you
out skis you
and will always be above you, and the only reason I am calling you out is so you can stop being a dick to a bunch of people who actually ride MTBs and race them at elite levels. go back to gapicski.
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Anonymous :nono:... Can´t you read? Or did you drink too much Stan´s?
 
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