What are the real world differences in suspension types?

trhoppe · Nov 17, 2009

Currently riding a hardtail and I'm trying to educate myself further before getting in a FS bike.

I pretty much have it narrowed down to 2 choices:
1) Easy Button. Go to LBS, buy a 2010 Trek Fuel EX8. $2100, call it done. They seem to have really upgraded their component set for 2010.
2) Build myself. Buy a sweet frame and build it up over a few months with better components. I can probably eek out a bit more bike for me $2100, but not much more. The big difference here seems to be in suspension type.

I've noticed that the Trek is a single pivot sort of suspension, while some of the other frames that I have been looking at like the Santa Cruz Blur XC are a VPP. The Gary Fisher has a "Active Braking Pivot (ABP)"

I've read the Wikipedia entries - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_suspension#Rear_suspension

What is the ad/disadvantage in the real world of the single pivot vs the VPP. If the VPP is superior, why doesn't Trek use it? Will I experience the same amount of pedal bob on both bikes? What the hell is ABP? So really, maybe what I'm asking is, what is the best FS type/bike for me? 5,10", 220lbs, XC riding.

-Tom

zebrahum · Nov 17, 2009

I'll work my way upwards. APB is Trek's active braking pivot. It places a pivot concentric with the rear axle. In my limited experience it handles quite well, good braking and bump performance. VPP in the real world, well you'll get as many opinions as the number of people you ask. I find VPP often rides pretty far into the travel and I find it feels better when I'm running the suspension stiffer. Single pivot is simple to maintain and with the modern shock technology performs great. There are plenty of really nice linkage driven single pivot bikes out there and they often end up with a pretty good value for the money.

If you buy a complete bike, you'll get a better overall price. For the same money, you couldn't put near as nice of parts on a frame as you could if you bought it as a complete. If there is a bike available that is frame only that you're really coveting, then go for it. Otherwise get a complete and you'll have a nicer overall build.

For your price point, easy button. I had a hell of a time when I was riding the Hi-Fi for a few months, it's a really fun bike.

kapusta · Nov 24, 2009

trhoppe said:
Currently riding a hardtail and I'm trying to educate myself further before getting in a FS bike.

I pretty much have it narrowed down to 2 choices:
1) Easy Button. Go to LBS, buy a 2010 Trek Fuel EX8. $2100, call it done. They seem to have really upgraded their component set for 2010.
2) Build myself. Buy a sweet frame and build it up over a few months with better components. I can probably eek out a bit more bike for me $2100, but not much more. The big difference here seems to be in suspension type.

I've noticed that the Trek is a single pivot sort of suspension, while some of the other frames that I have been looking at like the Santa Cruz Blur XC are a VPP. The Gary Fisher has a "Active Braking Pivot (ABP)"

I've read the Wikipedia entries - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_suspension#Rear_suspension

What is the ad/disadvantage in the real world of the single pivot vs the VPP. If the VPP is superior, why doesn't Trek use it? Will I experience the same amount of pedal bob on both bikes? What the hell is ABP? So really, maybe what I'm asking is, what is the best FS type/bike for me? 5,10", 220lbs, XC riding.

-Tom

There are differences, but all the designs you are talking about will work well. At some point you may want to geek out and really obsess over which frame design to get, but until you are riding a while and see what traits you actually care about, it is kind of pointless right now.

To answer your questions, Santa Cruz owns the VPP patent, and licenses it to Intense (or maybe shares it, I don't know). I believe the ABP is on the Trek as well as the GF, isn't it? It is supposed to help with braking, I hear it works as advertised.

Joss DeWaele · Nov 24, 2009

First of all, it is always cheaper to buy a complete bike made by a larger manufacturer.

Second, we can break susupension systems in to two broad categories: single pivot and multi-link.

Single pivot bikes either have the swingarm push directly on the shock, or use some sort of linkage driver to push on the shock.

Multi-link bikes are becoming more and more common, but present far more variables when it comes to how the suspension moves and reacts to pedaling forces, braking forces, and bump compliance, not to mention Dave Weagle's oft-used phrase, anti-squat. Every year, there is another form of multi-link suspension system introduced under a different name, and they will all feel different. They will all do some things well, and other things not so much. There is no magic bike.
For example, to create anti-squat (read: no pedal bob), the VPP system is designed so that the suspension system is locked out by chain torque. Because the wheelpath of the VPP system moves rearward just after the sag point, your pedaling force essentially pulls against the suspension, making it very firm feeling under pedaling loads. This firm pedaling makes the VPP the best parking lot test platform on the full-suspension market. On the flip side, when pedaling through choppy sections of trail, the suspension will also act upon the pedals, commonly referred to as pedal feedback.

Suspension jargon gets very complicated very quickly, and opinions will often heavily taint many of the arguments you will see on these forums as to what is the "best" suspension design. In my experience, people like what they have, which tells you how good the suspension designs are on the market right now. Since this public forum uses avatars, it is difficult to know who knows something, and who is just spewing something they heard from this one guy who read something once about something. However, if you look up the posting history of the posters "Turner Bikes" (Dave Turner) and "dw" (Dave Weagle) you will learn a ton. Like me, they will tell you that the DW link is the "best" suspension design. Unlike me, they can tell you why and sound good doing it.

Use the search function on these forums. There is far more information to be gleaned from the MTBR forum than there is from Wikipedia right now when it comes to mountain bikes.

Mike2009 · Nov 25, 2009

Hey Tom,

I'm sure you are getting some great feedback here...I can comment on a couple of your points.... first, I have been riding a 2008 Trek Fuel Ex9 and love it...it is a solid bike that can perform in many different types of Cross country and trails riding. Second, You mentioned the following:

"I've noticed that the Trek is a single pivot sort of suspension, while some of the other frames that I have been looking at like the Santa Cruz Blur XC are a VPP. The Gary Fisher has a "Active Braking Pivot (ABP)"

The Trek is definitely not a single pivot rear suspension. There is an EVO Rocker link on the top and another moving link on the bottom....this is why Trek calls this suspension a "free floater" design...check into this design, it really is plush! I think it comes from Suzuki motor cycles. The ABP is a braking design on the Treks and the Fishers which helps your control of the bike while braking.

I agree with the previous post about getting more bike for your money when you buy the complete bike vs building one up from scratch.

I also think the Ex8 is a great bike...a couple friends have it and LOVE it!

Good luck!

Mike
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boomn · Nov 25, 2009

Mike2009 said:
The Trek is definitely not a single pivot rear suspension. There is an EVO Rocker link on the top and another moving link on the bottom....this is why Trek calls this suspension a "free floater" design...check into this design, it really is plush! I think it comes from Suzuki motor cycles. The ABP is a braking design on the Treks and the Fishers which helps your control of the bike while braking.
-

No, I don't believe that is correct. The ABP would still fall under the single pivot category even though there are additional linkages driving the shock. The rear wheel follows a set circular arc around the main pivot just like a more simple single pivot design, so the wheel travel is not fundamentally different. The additional linkages do allow Trek to tweak other characteristics of the travel and the ABP changes the way it behaves under braking, but the wheel still follows the same path as there are no pivots or links between the main pivot and the rear wheel

kapusta · Nov 25, 2009

boomn said:
No, I don't believe that is correct. The ABP would still fall under the single pivot category even though there are additional linkages driving the shock. The rear wheel follows a set circular arc around the main pivot just like a more simple single pivot design, so the wheel travel is not fundamentally different. The additional linkages do allow Trek to tweak other characteristics of the travel and the ABP changes the way it behaves under braking, but the wheel still follows the same path as there are no pivots or links between the main pivot and the rear wheel

Right. As far as axle path goes, it is a SP design. All the "free floater" does is give them another way to manipulate the compression curve on the shock, and unless they are using to do something really unique, I am inclined to see it as a gimmick. Perfectly harmless, but basically smoke and mirrors.

Now the ABP is a different story. Apparently it really does do something.

Mike2009 · Nov 25, 2009

Thanks for the info guys, I guess there are a lot of different types of single pivot rear suspension designs out there...I learn something new everyday on these forums! I wish there was a web-site that would explain and categorize all the different types of suspensions available...since everyone uses there own name for them, Maestro, DW-link, full-floater, Horst-link, VPP and on and on....oh well...just gotta keep reading I guess!

Mike
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kapusta · Nov 25, 2009

Mike2009 said:
Thanks for the info guys, I guess there are a lot of different types of single pivot rear suspension designs out there...I learn something new everyday on these forums! I wish there was a web-site that would explain and categorize all the different types of suspensions available...since everyone uses there own name for them, Maestro, DW-link, full-floater, Horst-link, VPP and on and on....oh well...just gotta keep reading I guess!

Mike
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It is really hard to categorize them all neatly because there are a lot of different ways to do so. Do you go by axle path? The linkage type?

Using different criteria can lead to the frames being grouped differently.

For example, do you lump a horst link with a faux bar because they are both "4-bar" designs, or does the horst link go with the other virtual pivot designs and the faux bars with the single pivots?

What are the real world differences in suspension types?

trhoppe

zebrahum

kapusta

Joss DeWaele

Mike2009

boomn

kapusta

Mike2009

kapusta

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