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Spoke-head washers; are they worthwhile?

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hootsmon

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
I'm re-reading Gerd Shraner's classic The Art of Wheelbuilding. To minimise risk of spoke-breakage near the elbow, Gerd recommends a brass spoke-head washer such as DT-Swiss Praline. Basically, he says the washer helps minimise play where the spoke-heads bed into the (often oversized) spoke-holes drilled in the hub-flange.

So here's my question: Are spoke-head washers useful, or were they a passing fad (a bit like spoke-tying perhaps)?

In my case, I'm planning to use DT Comp (or SuperComp) spokes, whose diameter is 2mm at the elbow. The hubs are Halo Spin Doctor Uni/Pro, and I estimate the spoke-hole diameter is ~2.5 - 2.6mm (ie. there's room for a bit of play there).

Thoughts anyone?
 
#2 ·
I've always heard, and thought that spoke head washers were for spokes 1.8 mm at the head... 2 mm thickness at the head by far the most common, and I've never seen actually seen a wheel with spoke head washers.

Though they probably would look cool...
 
#6 ·
ShadowsCast said:
Perhaps a "decent" wheel builder will chime in.
Click to expand...
While you're waiting, I'll let you salivate over this. But isn't it weird, the washers don't fill the hole but fill the gap between head and bend. Maybe they were designed for thin flanges. Maybe that's why "decent" wheelbuilders don't use them with 15g spokes.
 

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#7 ·
That does look cool. Are those your wheels? Have you ever used them Mike T.? Hmm, what quality hubs have "thin" flanges? I did read about them being for "thinner" flanges or actually spokes with longer bends (same effect) on Peter White's webpage, where he complains (back in 2001) about DT increasing the length of their bends... He claimed that since DT bends were longer he would have to use spoke head washers on them to keep the same strength. DT has since changed their bend length again to be shorter. Using them to fill that gap makes more sense anyway, I can't imagine a 1.8 mm spoke head slipping through the spoke hole, and they do seem to be perfect for taking up that space.

So the question remains, I'm thinking about building a new front cross wheel, which quality hubs will give me an excuse to use these things?
 
Discussion starter · #8 ·
Mike T. said:
While you're waiting, I'll let you salivate over this. But isn't it weird, the washers don't fill the hole but fill the gap between head and bend. Maybe they were designed for thin flanges. Maybe that's why "decent" wheelbuilders don't use them with 15g spokes.
Click to expand...
Thanks Mike, those washers do look kinda cool.
 
#9 ·
Spoke head washers are not just for 1.8 spokes. You use them when you have a hub with thinner then normal flanges and spoke holes larger then 2.5mm. I use them on Powertap hubs because they have both a thin-ish flange and a 2.8mm diameter spoke hole diameter. Industry9 hubs also benefit from them because they have thin flanges but normal spoke 2.5mm spoke hole diameter.

Mike T. said:
Really? I guess the majority of wheelbuilders are indecent then.
Click to expand...
Everyone knows that all wheelbuilders are indecent.
 
#13 ·
hootsmon said:
Yep, that's pretty much what I thought too. In fact, I've never even seen a wheel with spoke washers, tho' Gerd's book suggests that all decent wheelbuilders use 'em.
Click to expand...
Gerd's book says that he uses always brass washers when the difference between the spoke diameter and the hub spoke hole diameter is greater than 0.3mm. He also says you seldom see a professional, manually-built wheel without washers.
 
#14 ·
hootsmon said:
Just Googled for 'spoke washers', and found 2 somewhat informative links:


So based on all this, I'm seriously considering giving these DT Swiss 2.2mm washers a try, aimed at tightening-up the rather loose-fitting spoke-heads on my next wheelbuild (as per original question).
Click to expand...
Hold on Hootsmon, where's the evidence from those two references that makes you think washers are good?

In the first reference (if you read through the quotes correctly), Jobst Brandt certainly does not endorse them "How does a washer give a spoke elbow improved support in a flange? ". You might see Jim Beam chiming in with an opposite view but that's what Jim does with anything Jobst says, Jim is always jousting with Jobst and baiting him.

The second reference was to Year 2000 DT spokes when they changed the design of the elbow to a longer neck (design code R1). Peter White decided to use washers to pack the gap, I dumped my DT stock and switched to Sapim, I wasn't going to mess with washers. DT soon realised their error and switched the design back (code R2 on the spoke box).

You are already trying to find a solution to a problem that does not exist. I recommend you put washers on half the spokes on a mixture of inbound and out bound spokes then sit back and ride for a few thousand miles and monitor the situation. This will give you a definitive answer and add to your wheelbuilding knowledge (please report back).

--
Roger
 
#15 ·
Roger-m, do you still use only Sapim? If so why, or if not what about DT brought you back?

I've read, I believe on Peter White's website, that he's seen DT heads pop off "more often" than Sapim (or was it Wheelsmith he switched to...) because they have a sharp angle at the head, instead of a smooth transition like whichever brand it was he switched too. I guess it's time I went and looked it up...

Edit: Found it,

The transition between the spoke and the head on a Wheelsmith spoke is a bit different than on other brands of spokes. Instead of a sharp angle at the base of the head, the spoke has a smooth curved shape. The sharp angle on other spokes is a stress riser, and can cause the spoke head to pop off. I've never seen this happen with a Wheelsmith spoke, and I have seen it happen often with other brands. That's the primary reason I only build with Wheelsmith spokes.
Click to expand...
In the same thread however, I heard lots of talk about Wheelsmith not being as reliable as DT, and how their butting profiles are considerably more abrupt than DT's, including a picture that really does make it look shocking.

Roadbikereview thread.
 
#16 ·
ShadowsCast said:
Roger-m, do you still use only Sapim? If so why, or if not what about DT brought you back?
Click to expand...
I now use DT spokes because I've cut down on my suppliers for bike parts and my main supplier is the DT distributer for the UK and they carry good stocks in all sizes, plus their ordering system is excellent (order by mid day and delivered 9am next day). I still see quite a few Sapim spokes because Hope Technology use them in some of their Hoops factory wheelsets.

Nothing wrong with Sapim. Never seen a Wheelsmith spoke.

Never seen a spoke head pop off. If it was a regular thing then I'm sure DT would have done something about it. The Internet discussions ensures we know about badly designed components pretty fast. Wheel related stuff seems to work these days.

--
Roger
PS On holiday now. Further replies to this topic may not be too swift.
 
#18 ·
ShadowsCast said:
In the same thread however, I heard lots of talk about Wheelsmith not being as reliable as DT, and how their butting profiles are considerably more abrupt than DT's, including a picture that really does make it look shocking.

Roadbikereview thread.
Click to expand...
Most flavors of spoke out there are pretty decent. Was tempted for Sapin with the last builds, but went with DT Supercomps & WS for the last sets of builds.

I tend towards Wheelsmith. I've yet to have a problem due to the spokes. User errors, sure, but because of the butting on the spokes, no.

The butting on the Wheelsmith is more noticible. I actually like that. A hair lighter for no loss in durability (kinda redundant now with supercomps though), and you can see/feel the change in the spoke easier.

I had a shop waaaay back when try to pass off a DT wheelset as butted when it wasn't. With WS, never would have happened.

At this point it's the Camaro vs Mustang, Ford vs Chevy stuff.. both work, which do you like better.

JmZ
 
Discussion starter · #19 ·
roger-m said:
Hold on Hootsmon, where's the evidence from those two references that makes you think washers are good?

In the first reference (if you read through the quotes correctly), Jobst Brandt certainly does not endorse them "How does a washer give a spoke elbow improved support in a flange? ". You might see Jim Beam chiming in with an opposite view but that's what Jim does with anything Jobst says, Jim is always jousting with Jobst and baiting him.

The second reference was to Year 2000 DT spokes when they changed the design of the elbow to a longer neck (design code R1). Peter White decided to use washers to pack the gap, I dumped my DT stock and switched to Sapim, I wasn't going to mess with washers. DT soon realised their error and switched the design back (code R2 on the spoke box).

You are already trying to find a solution to a problem that does not exist. I recommend you put washers on half the spokes on a mixture of inbound and out bound spokes then sit back and ride for a few thousand miles and monitor the situation. This will give you a definitive answer and add to your wheelbuilding knowledge (please report back).

--
Roger
Click to expand...
Well Roger, you're 100% right; the problem I was worrying about doesn't exist.

This is a bit embarassing to admit, but it turns out that I mistakenly grabbed a handful of 1.8mm (not 2mm) spokes, that I was using to test the hub / spoke interface. Oops! That explains why they were such a sloppy fit. :eek: So anyway, I guess it's time to stop futzing around and build the wheels instead.
 
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hootsmon
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