Which Phil Wood bottom bracket for Pugsley

Mother Goose · Mar 26, 2009

Hello - Does someone know which Phil Wood bottom bracket is the correct one for a Pugsley frame? I know it is the 100mm shell with 145mm spindle, but one is symmetrical and one has 5mm offset to the drive side. Which one works? I imagine it will depend on the cranks you use, so this will be for a forged Race Face square taper with 22/32/44 rings. Any help or past experiences will be appreciated. Thanks

thirstywork · Mar 27, 2009

You should be fine with the symetrical bb. If you are trying to put 100mm rims on, use the offset.

Wildfire · Mar 27, 2009

Mother Goose said:
Hello - Does someone know which Phil Wood bottom bracket is the correct one for a Pugsley frame? I know it is the 100mm shell with 145mm spindle, but one is symmetrical and one has 5mm offset to the drive side. Which one works? I imagine it will depend on the cranks you use, so this will be for a forged Race Face square taper with 22/32/44 rings. Any help or past experiences will be appreciated. Thanks

Depends on if the bike is going to be a single speed. If so, get the symmetrical plus a Brit cup set and the spindle will be exactly centered in your frame.

If you are planning to run an E-Type (bottom bracket mounted) front derailleur, get the offset version plus the cup set plus a left-hand threaded lock ring for the drive side..The lock ring allows several mm lateral adjustment of the cups to dial in your chain line and also holds the front derailleur in place. The middle front chain ring should ideally line up with the center cog of your cassette. It may be necessary to flip the bottom bracket so the longer side is toward the non-drive side of your bike. When you get it the way you want it, lock everything in place with the lock ring. The plate on the front derailleur measures 2.5 mm plus you'll need another 2.5 mm of threads exposed for the lock ring so it usually works out to install it with the longer end of the spindle toward the non-drive side.

Happy wrenching.

Mother Goose · Mar 27, 2009

Thanks for the helpful advice.

Spivvy · Apr 6, 2009

Hi

I have a similar question to ask:

My Pugsley build will have an Alfine hub, a triple chainset (budget Alivio most likely) using just a single ring - so will the symmetrical or asymmetrical Phil Wood provide the best chainline?.

I have looked around but measurements have proven hard to come by.

Thanks in advance.

Mother Goose · Apr 7, 2009

I installed my Phil Wood bb last night and have a few notes that might be helpful. After receiving the comments here and talking with Phil Wood, I went with the asymmetrical (5mm offset) bb, part # BPS45R. I am running it with a set of Race Face Turbine cranks with a 22/32/44 ring set up. I also got the set of cups that have an extra 5mm of thread on the drive cup and come with a lefthand lockring to secure the plate on the E-type front derailleur, part # BMRBE.

When I set the bb up with the 5mm of offset to the drive side, the driveside crank was spaced quite far from the frame and the non-drive crank would not clear the chainstay. So I actually flipped the bb and set it up with the 5mm of offset to the non-drive side. I threaded in the drive side cup so there were just enough threads (about 5mm) outside the bb shell to accomodate the thickness of the E-type front derailleur and lefthand lockring. The non-drive side cup threads completely into the frame then with no threads exposed once tightened. The cranks are now nicely centered and there is plenty of clearance between the chainstay and crank arm on both the drive and non-drive side. The chainline is also quite good with the chain in the middle ring and middle gear on the cassette.

Be sure to consider the non-drive side crank arm clearance as the chainstay on that side does bend out more than the drive side on the Pugsley. It seems that flipping the asymmetrical bb is key for my particular set up. I don't think a symmetrical bb would have worked because you could not space the non-drive side crank arm out far enough to clear the frame. I was limited by how much I could shift the bb left and right in the shell because I needed enough threads on the drive side to accomodate the front derailleur plate and lockring.

I hope this helps someone out and makes them feel a little more comfortable before buying $150 plus in bottom bracket parts. I will test ride my set up tomorrow morning. Hopefully the Phil Wood bb lasts longer than the one winter the Shimano external bb that came with the Mr Whirly cranks did.

Wildfire · Apr 7, 2009

Glad everything worked out.

I have a question for you, Mother Goose:

I've been running the Mr. Whirly cranks and bottom bracket for a few months and so far, so good. I think there is noticably less spindle flex then with my old square taper bb. You mentioned the bearings crapping out on you, can I enquire if you do a lot of mud or salt/silt riding?

Mine are holding in there nicely so far. Almost all of my winter riding is on clean, dry snow trails but I was planning on continuing to use them this summer on dirt trails in 29er mode.

Thanks

Mother Goose · Apr 7, 2009

Hi Wildfire -

Yes, salt and sand is what I think killed the bb in my Mr Whirly cranks. I've probably put in as many road miles as trail miles on my Pugsley and the large amount of salt and sand they use on the roads here in the winter I'm pretty sure got to the bearings. I had been using the bb and cranks for 2-3 months this past fall on dirt trails and had no problems until a couple months into winter. I'll have to wait until next winter I guess to see if the Phil Wood bb holds up better.

I was tempted to try out a Phil Wood or Chris King external bb so I could keep the benefits of a larger diameter spindle, but...... I just decided to go back to square taper. If I find the new set up noticeably more flexy, maybe I will give one of those a try.

Spivvy · Apr 7, 2009

Mother Goose said:
I hope this helps someone out and makes them feel a little more comfortable before buying $150 plus in bottom bracket parts. I will test ride my set up tomorrow morning. Hopefully the Phil Wood bb lasts longer than the one winter the Shimano external bb that came with the Mr Whirly cranks did.

Many thanks for that Mother Goose, for such a unique bike it seems there are many options available

Race Face Atlas FR anyone? another thread methinks...

G-reg · Apr 8, 2009

You have some kinda funky build going to need the offset bb. I have the symmetric bb and there is tons of room on the drive side for chainring/crank clearance. The non-driveside crank arm is actually the closest to the frame at the chainstay/half way up the crank arm.

Wildfire · Apr 8, 2009

G-reg said:
You have some kinda funky build going to need the offset bb. I have the symmetric bb and there is tons of room on the drive side for chainring/crank clearance. The non-driveside crank arm is actually the closest to the frame at the chainstay/half way up the crank arm.

Which would be why the assymetric bb flipped backward equalizes that out. When I first did it I thought "oh no, the Phil Wood logo will be backwards" but no one will ever see it. Think about it: bb plate plus lock ring equals 5 mm which means a symmetrical bb would not be centered on the frame, and the asymmetric bottom bracket is 5 mm longer on one side, ergo: symmetrical Q-factor. Anyway, either bottom bracket works, doubt anyone can notice the difference when riding. I can't help it, I was potty trained at gunpoint. Carry on, then...:thumbsup:

G-reg · Apr 8, 2009

Wildfire said:
Which would be why the assymetric bb flipped backward equalizes that out. When I first did it I thought "oh no, the Phil Wood logo will be backwards" but no one will ever see it. Think about it: bb plate plus lock ring equals 5 mm which means a symmetrical bb would not be centered on the frame, and the asymmetric bottom bracket is 5 mm longer on one side, ergo: symmetrical Q-factor. Anyway, either bottom bracket works, doubt anyone can notice the difference when riding. I can't help it, I was potty trained at gunpoint. Carry on, then...:thumbsup:

I was going to reply that most of that is because of the design of the chainstays, but I went and looked and I think you may be on to something. When I rebuild I'm going to scoot the bb toward the non-drive side.

Side Note: When I ordered the bb I asked if anyone had ordered an offset, and they implied it was very few.

Side Side Note: The difference in bearing drag/smoothness/efficiency of the previously mentioned BB experiment is HUGE compared to what people see with hubs. If a new hub standard came out and you got 1 revolution per 10 vs another hub, you'd be pissed. And if more efficient isn't a good argument, it's better sealed too!

The previous has been good natured conversation, if it is perceived otherwise blame Brau Bros Brewing Co, Lucan MN.

Wildfire · Apr 8, 2009

It's all good. The beer sounds good too.

Hard to beat Phil Wood products for quality, I think they must of had the same potty trainer I did. Now if they could just flip that logo around so I can sleep at night.

G-reg · Apr 26, 2009

First, sorry no photo evidence. My digicam crapped the bed.

I finally started into my Pugsley overhaul and threw some stuff on the scale.

Phil 100mm Steel BB: 275g

Phil Stainless Cups: 40g

M900S XTR Cranks,
Salsa ring/bashguard,
steel chainring bolts: 625g

Cheap steel crank bolts: 30g

Total Crankset: 970g

Not out of line for a non weight weenie setup with a giant spindle/shell. It's surprising how heavy the old XTR cranks are. A modern square taper with a single ring like I have is a fair bit lighter; 516g for a White Ind. with ring, 454g for a MIddleburn R7 with ring.

mangoman · Sep 30, 2009

So...symmetrical or offset BB: check.

Still have a couple of questions:
- Would a Mr. Whirly crankset work with this non-Outboard BB?
- Is the titanium version a bad application for a Pugs, assuming I could find the money for it?

Dusza · Apr 15, 2013

I'll bump it since I had the same problem and have found the whole Sym vs. Asym discussion somehow confusing.

2012 Yellow pugs with front derailleur mounted via Problem Solvers adapter:
Symmetrical Phil Wood + Shimano Alivio triple (for 113mm spindle) work great.

mochunk · Apr 17, 2013

So bye bye to stock external BB can possibly help with salt contamination? I recently pulled my seatpost and noted a ton of corrosion on the bottom half. Upon looking down the seat tube, I noted a ton of rust inside the frame and on the bottom bracket/spindle of my only 5 month old pugs. Ugh, damned Chicago winters. So far, the bearings seem to be holding up, but I am preparing mentally with the possible need to replace it (and of course possibly better protect it in the future). So following this for sure.

vikb · Apr 17, 2013

I used the symetrical Phill BB with a Shimano Alivio MTB triple [running only the middle ring] + Alfine 8. Note the symetrical BB still has something like 5mm side to side adjustment due to the type of cups Phil uses.

Dusza · Apr 17, 2013

mochunk said:
So bye bye to stock external BB can possibly help with salt contamination?

PW sells BB mudguards that should help keep the worst stuff at bay.

vikb · Apr 17, 2013

Dusza said:
PW sells BB mudguards that should help keep the worst stuff at bay.

My Phil BB survived 4yrs without the guards. I would have used them when I replaced the bearings, but they didn't fall to hand and the bearing cost was low so I let it slide. If you can find some it wouldn't be a bad idea to use them.

Which Phil Wood bottom bracket for Pugsley

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