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White Brothers 650b Fork / My Decision to Go 650b

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dieselcruiserhead

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Discussion starter · #1 · (Edited)
Pretty psyched, my White Brothers dedicated 650b fork showed up Wed/Thurs of last week some time. It is my first White Brothers fork but I am definitely impressed with the workmanship and design of the fork... It is the Fluid 130 model, according to docs I have looks like there will be a White Brothers Magic 80 and 100 fork, as well as a Fluid 100 and 130 model, all in the 650b format.

Kudos to White Brothers for stepping up to the plate and coming up with these cutting edge forks in these cutting edge formats, otherwise but us (current and future 650b guys) as well as 29er folks would be left high and dry...

These are **tentative** fork specs for this one, but I believe they are correct. If I find out I have some errors I will correct/edit this original post and let people know it is edited...

  • 650b Fluid 130 Fork
  • 130mm travel (5.12" travel)
  • 20mm Thru-Axle
  • Disk Only
  • Damping: Open Oil Bath
  • Spring: Linear Air Spring
  • Adjustments: Rebound, Compression, Air Pressure.
  • 517mm axle-crown
  • Offset: 42mm
  • Total Weight: 4.2lbs* ( uncut steerer )

This fork, I figure, is most like either their 29er-110mm fluid or their 140 26" fluid, in that there is no coil spring, open bath dampening with air with only (no coil -- which I like, reduces weight, and makes it act more like a Talas or Float Fox fork). The directions that came with it are for their 26" 140 Fluid Fork as its basically identical minus 10mm of travel and designed to fit the 650b wheel. *Using the bathroom scale method (not 100% but pretty accurate) comes in at 4.2 lbs, which is unreal.

Best part is the 20mm thru-axle though. I think if there is something that can be learned from the 29er guys/movement is that the 20mm thru-axle goes a long way with lateral stiffness. I'm sure if this is a big deal or not with 650b yet as I have no time on a 650b yet.

If not for the thru-axle, I figure this fork would be probably 3.9lbs or so, and damn competitive with the 140mm travel 26" Fox Float fork that I consider it to be similar to. I get Fox forks at cost through my LBS that I am partnered with, but am more than happy to have this fork, and chose it over the Float (even though a Float will fit a 650b wheel/tire). Reasons are: because of the 20mm thru-axle, the weight, and that there are no potential crown bottoming-out, and warranty issues. I also like that it is 100% hand made in America (I usually don't care too much about this stuff) but again I think it's killer versus one more bike part made in Taiwan. And at will also closely match the American handmade Ventana frame this will go on... And no thru-axle forks that I am aware of compare at this weight. All of these reasons combined makes it one more reason I went 650b over 29er and 26" and I have a feeling I'll be damn psyched with this setup.

The photos:
 

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Discussion starter · #2 · (Edited)
650b versus 26" and 29er Full Suspension Geometry...

For about the last 6 months, I have basically ravenously been-researching frame manufacturers and different frame designs and geometry. I am 6'5 and about 225 so a big guy, but I don't think that affects too much for the purposes of this discussion. Similar to someone 6'1 and teetering between L and XL, I am just barely too big for common XL 21" frames but don't like the massive XXL 23" frames for a variety of reasons, possibly most of them in my head. But we do have a lot of tight switch backs around here and I really like being "playful" with bikes and a XXL, particularly in 29er, seemed behemoth to me (though it XXL is probably the best size for me).

I got sold on 29er late last summer. But doing the geometry specs and even talking to a lot of the frame builders -- though I have very little time on full suspension 29ers -- it seems like a lot of them are saying building 4" or later full suspension 29er frames compromises the geometry beyond traditional 26" or common 4"+ geometry standards. Basically the issue is chainstays, in my opinion.

Obviously looks of bikes are very important... Ventanas and Turners are gorgeous. And this is important to consumers as well as manufacturers I think, so they are not willing to bend their seat tubes to compensate for 29er wheels to allow for shorter chainstays, and this compromises 29er full suspension geometry in my opinion.

I think, previously, 17" chain stays were considered behemoth... But I don't think so any more and lots of 26" full suspension bikes run 17" stays these days. When I was riding hard tails, in the XL size 17" chainstays was the best thing I ever found. For someone 6'1 to 6'4 or so in a common 21" XL frame, 16" - 16.25" stays are probably great and really get the wheel under the butt. With a tall guy like me, 17" stays are better with the seatpost all the way out (and the seat pushed back farther). It increases stability and traction and reduces wheelie-ability. Otherwise I have to move the seat way forward which has a number of compromises as you can imagine. I also ride hard XC/AM even on hardtails... Either taking a beating, or using large tires like 2.4 to take the beating for me.

Both Ventana and Turner are running 18" + chainstays in their 29er full suspension models. Again this seems to me compromise flickability and some of the benefits of 26" bikes and common "what works awesome" 26" full suspension geometry. This is also why very few frame manufacturers will make a 29er frame in 5". That said, added with the increased traction of 29er, no wonder these bikes climb like goats and seems like there is little compromise.

But still, the only guy really doing it right with 29ers is Devin Lenz, IMO, with that bent seat tube and less than 18" chainstays on his Behemoths of the last year. They are 17-something in chain stays. Gary Fisher has been able to get their rear chainstays to a very respectable 17.2" on their hardtails. This is perfect... My 2007 GF 29er hardtail frame is very very flickable and very fun. But at the same time I spoke to Devin Lenz about this and he said he strongly considered shortening the chainstays on his Leviathan using the same technique, but that it performed very well even with the longer stays, did not compromise wheelieability, and still handled very agile. So maybe this is the case with the Ventana and Turner 29er bikes too, I dunno. So food for thought...

But this, more than any other reason, is why I chose 650b. I have been teetering on the brink of ordering a Ventana El Rey for months now. And I am sure I would be fine on an El Rey (really, at the end of the day it is hard to really go wrong and this is all semantics). But I wanted something with some of the characteristics of 29er but with the geometry of 26. Enter 650b.

Then, when I started reading the reviews of the Panaracer Rampage and when I heard about/saw the Pacenti Neo-Moto and its reviews (there is nothing to me like a tire that sticks like glue in corners as well as traction) and that I ride 2.3 and 2.4 tires anyway, I was sold. Now we have Kenda Nevegal and some of hte rim makers and really there is very little way to possibly go wrong from here.

It took me only a day or two to make the decision to go 650b...
 
Discussion starter · #3 · (Edited)
And finally, the White Brothers forks...

I have to first say that admittedly I am/could be a little biased... I build web sites for a living and last fall I approached them about building a new site which we eventually agreed to. But in the course of building their new site and learning a lot about them, I think here and there they get more of a neutral rap then they deserve. I think, mentally, because they are not Fox or another high dollar manufacturer or that people are using their forks sometimes because they are only option, people feel like they have an inferior product, versus a product from a higher dollar manufacturer. But I actually don't think this is the case.

I saw a quote somewhere on this site that said "they are like Marzocchi bombers from the early 2000's" (which makes me think stout as hell, a little mushy, and heavy)... And again I don't think that is the case... First, they have several fork technologies:

The first is their IMV - the air technology adjustable on the fly in their ultra-light 80mm and 100mm travel Magic forks. This is good for XC only and light AM in my opinion. And this could not be farther from early '00s Marzocchi technology IMO. I think the only comparisons are their stiffness. AM also pushes the limit of this fork strictly because of travel restriction, and they are light.

Then there are two Fluid technologies for their AM lineup. They run Open Bath dampening and Air only in their 29-110mm Fluid and 140 fluid 26" forks and this new 650b 130 fork. Nice and plush and a lot like the Fox forks as previously mentioned. Then for their heavier duty applications, they run coil/air assist for their 29 135 and 150 models, and their Fluid 120 26" model.

Then they have several downhill fork technologies that they are also well-known for, but this is a different discussion.

So in all I think the three forks are different and for different applications. And in all will be killer.... The fork I got has a complete parts diagram and is really ingenious and nicely simple. It still has 46 parts though (but still weighs 4.2lbs, even with the thru-axle -- unreal).

So all this has me **psyched.** We are early in the 650b program but like a lot say we have a lot going for us and already have leaps and bounds and I already believe this is a fully-viable wheel size format.. And all this has me psyched... Even if 650b never takes off and I have to milk obscure rims and only several tire sources for years, I feel like I will be happy and definitely made the right choice...

I hope all this helps for anyone out there in similar conundrums as me... :)

Cheers,
Andre
 
#4 ·
Thanks for the write up! It is very well written. I probably will end up with a 100mm White Brothers as that is what my hardtail is being designed around but for now I will run rigid.

Come August I might have second thoughts about my fully rigid bike in Napa, CA.
 
#7 ·
Damn, I didn't know anyone still made a fork that worked as well as the Bombers!

Seriously though, maybe some folks weren't into bikes that far back, but White Bros made some pretty bad stuff back in the day.. at the tail end of the pruple anodised era. All kinds of expensive upgrades for Judy's that didn't work right out of the box, etc. Terrible to deal with (10+ years ago).

I will admit though, it seems like most of the recent press/opinions are positive. This 650b thing is probably a godsend for them... it would be tough going toe to toe with RS, Fox, etc.

I'm building a 650b frame, just got the wheels. I've decided in the interest of money savings to convert an 02, or 03 Z2 Bam to 100mm with enough crown clearance. It will take a few easy parts made on the lathe. The ATC will be the same as a Fox 100, and the same weight if not a touch lighter,so if it sucks I'll be able swap it out for a bunch of money of course.
 
Discussion starter · #8 ·
42mm offset, that is an excellent question. I believe it's the same but check on the White Brothers site (www.whitebrotherscycling.com) as I actually maintain their site and I remember putting the offset specs up sometime in the recent past...

Yeah, I actually have two of these now, a Fluid 110 29er and the 130 that is on the 650b bike/the Ventana. Both have been awesome... I also have time on the Fox F29 and Reba 29er 100mm and it competes with the Fox, blows away at least the '08 Rebas. Stout as hell... This one (the 650b fork) needed a fluid change surprisingly early (and was getting a little stiction at the time) but since then, it's done just killer, nice and smooth.

It also took me a while to figure out the air pressures, which is different from the manual but set at the advice of White Brothers themselves when I called (and am glad I did). I have almost no air in the compression spring, and I think (if I remember correctly) maybe 100 psi in the air spring. So quite a bit lower than I thought. This is with correct sag at about 30mm. The small bump compliance has been just awesome and it's smooth and buttery. Definitely an air spring style (versus a coil spring - my last fork) where the spring is not 'linear' - it gets more restrictive as it compresses. As a result I think it would take big hits really well, but I haven't put it through more than maybe 1 or 1.5' a most. Way more powerful fork than I expected. Also, I weighed the fork itself on an accurate scale and it's a hair more than I thought at right about 4.5lbs, not 4.2 as reported.

You might notice I have it for sale in another thread. Only because I'm upgrading to 140mm. Not 100%, but I'm pretty sure I'll go with a White Brothers again, this time custom, to match the new 5.5" / 140mm Ventana rockers, based on the killer performance of this one. The only reason I'm mildly considering a different fork is to maybe get something lighter. That would be my only mild complaint...

Hope it helps...
 
#9 ·
dieselcruiserhead said:
42mm offset, that is an excellent question. I believe it's the same but check on the White Brothers site (www.whitebrotherscycling.com) as I actually maintain their site and I remember putting the offset specs up sometime in the recent past...
Click to expand...
Thanks Diesel, I thought I had seen it on the site too once before, but after looking last night I hadn't had much luck. So at your advice I got back on the White Brothers site and found a link (Product Information) at the bottom of the web page and was able to download a PDF file with all the specs. Ya da man!

So here's what it says:
Magic 650b, 80 and 100mm:
Offset with Quick Release is: 44mm

Magic 650b, 100mm:
Offset with 20mm is: 42mm
 
#10 ·
Diesel, did you end up getting another White Brothers fork? Over all how'd ya like the Fluid vs the Magic? I need to get another 100mm fork for my new frame and it's going to be another White Brothers, but I can't decided which to get... another Magic or Fluid.

I'll be riding the new bike mostly on XC, Aggressive XC... but I do plan to take it AM riding too. Based on your earlier post it sounds like I may want to opt out for the Fluid. But I really dig how stiff the Magic is while climbing. How's the Fluid hold up while climbing compared to the Magic?
 
Discussion starter · #11 ·
Hey Mickey,
In this case I ended up going with the RockShox Air Revelation which is basically the same as an '08 Pike or earlier except the Revelation is a little lightened up and to tell you the truth the Rockshox features (mostly that Maxle) are nice. It feels pretty good and it's nice to have the 140mm up front especially for the more technical stuff. Down at the Goose it felt just great. I would have been really psyched on another WB 140 but they lightened up the Revelation and right now my budget was hurting so the Revelation was in the cards. We'll see what happens as the season progresses. I might end up back on the White Brothers, again I really liked the 130mm fork, it was very smooth and very powerful once I got it dialed and was smart about regular oil changes...

Cheers,
Andre
 
Discussion starter · #12 ·
Oh yeah, to answer Fluid versus Magic, Magic looks great but I have to say I personally am probably Magic material 95% of the time, I prefer the smoother plusher travel rather than lack of bob. Soft of where I'm at maybe, into plushness and riding my rigids and hardtails less and less. That said, I have no time on a Magic. I personally would consider Magic maybe on a really fast or race hard tail or single speed I'd figure.

Hope it helps!
 
#13 ·
Yea it does help... thanks!
I really dig the IMV on my Magic and the fact that there's no bob during climbs, yet soaks it up where it's needed. I spoke to one of my riding buddies who also has a Magic and Eric of White Brothers... both of which pretty much confirmed that I need to stick with the Magic for the type of riding I'm doing.

I'll be getting a Bastardo sometime in the very near future... I think I'll get a Fluid 130mm when that day comes.
Thanks,
Mickey

dieselcruiserhead said:
Oh yeah, to answer Fluid versus Magic, Magic looks great but I have to say I personally am probably Magic material 95% of the time, I prefer the smoother plusher travel rather than lack of bob. Soft of where I'm at maybe, into plushness and riding my rigids and hardtails less and less. That said, I have no time on a Magic. I personally would consider Magic maybe on a really fast or race hard tail or single speed I'd figure.

Hope it helps!
Click to expand...
 
#15 ·
Here's a list of the most detailed information (http://www.whitebrotherscycling.com/prodinfo.shtml) I've seen on the White Brothers site, but I'm not sure if it has what you're looking for. There is information on changing the oil for a IMV fork and how this is accomplished in the file named (IMV_Service_Instructions.pdf) so if you have a Magic this may be just what you're looking for.

bogmonster said:
I am having a hard time finding specs for oil levels, i want to change out the fork oil before spring but cannot find any info on fluid amounts??? anyone???

Bog
Click to expand...
 
#16 ·
Non Imv

The IMV instructions are what i am looking for but for a fluid model, i called Wb today and they said the info was in the manual, but its not in my manual or any manual on their site.
I will see if they can email me some info on the procedure, it cant be to diffucult, i have serviced other forks but with instructions and oil specs......

Bog
 
#17 ·
WB is going to have to come up with something pretty amazing to erase my memory of owning a UL72. That's time off my life that I'll probably never get back;)
 
Discussion starter · #18 ·
That was a long time ago though... I was pretty pleased with my WB forks and again, would go back to one in a second... That 130 definitely competes with the best forks I've ridden IMO, both Fox and Rockshox.

I can't remember the fluid numbers.. Lets see if I can pull them off a PM as I remember typing up the directions last year with the fluid levels...
 
Discussion starter · #19 · (Edited)
OK, here we go...

Straight from the source (white brothers) via telephone: about 15cc (1 oz) in the air fork side. About 6 oz (surprising it takes so much but it does) in the compression adjust side. 5 weight fork oil (for example SRAM RockShox oil, or Honda moto 5 weight). Slick Honey for seal lube, all over the stanchions and very liberally in and around the seals. Does not matter if oil and slick honey grease mix as this is normal. Our theory is lack of a grease sponge is maybe what requires these forks to be rebuilt to often, does not retain grease near the seals. It is very easy to rebuild, you can get down to 20 minutes or less for full oil change/grease/cleanup.

Directions:

Decompress the fork to about 40 psi in fork side and 0 in the compression adjust side. Undo the compression fork side bolt at bottom with 6mm hex key, to about .5-1cm out. Then use hammer to tap in, hitting the screw inwards freeing from fork bottom. Once in/retracted, completely remove screw. Place oil collection pan under fork. Drain out oil. Mine was red and thick and fully contaminated, totally normal to be this way (and leading cause of stiction). I used a small hex key in the hole to get the oil to exit quicker.

On the other side (compression adjust side): Remove the rebound adjust screw by simply yanking it out. Then, completely unscrew the screw beneath it also using the 6mm hex key: a long screw: about 3cm long in threads. Then, with assistant or vice clamp, pull to remove upper stanchions/compression cartridge.

Clean inside and out, lube the seals (and stanchions) liberally with slick honey.

Then reassemble. Invert fork, takes the oil levels mentioned above on each side. Attempt to screw in screws on both sides. The compression cartridge side is a *****, start threads in both sides, compress fork as it is inverted, use a flat head to pull the fork internals out as much as possible. When they are wedged against the bottom of the fork they lock up and you are able to tighten. Once all tightened up (about 5-10 minutes of dicking around usually), reinsert rebound adjust screw. This also takes some dicking around to get 100% lined up and 100% inserted correctly so no air leaks out.

Pressurize air fork side **only** to about 60 psi. Put fork in normal upright working position. Cycle up and down repeatedly. You will feel stiction disappear. I let sit about 1 day like this and all stiction was gone. Then start tuning. Contrary to directions that came with this fork, it tunes at (again, per White Brothers via phone conversation):

Air fork: about 50% of weight as PSI. I run less than 50%.

This will deliver the most plush setup. Then, once sag is set, start adding air to compression adjust side. Anywhere from 5-50psi is acceptable and matter of preference. I am finding about at little as 1-7 psi in compression side with sag set correctly at about 20-25% delivers the best all around performance for me...

Cheers,
A
Click to expand...
 
#20 ·
Yea... I'm really digging my White Brothers fork and it is definitely one of my favorite forks I've ever owned!

dieselcruiserhead said:
That was a long time ago though... I was pretty pleased with my WB forks and again, would go back to one in a second... That 130 definitely competes with the best forks I've ridden IMO, both Fox and Rockshox.

I can't remember the fluid numbers.. Lets see if I can pull them off a PM as I remember typing up the directions last year with the fluid levels...
Click to expand...
 
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Mickey650b
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