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King ISO front disc sets caliper too close...

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#21 ·
Iso?

OLAK said:
just in case you didn't read the go-round from a few months ago, I contacted King in March and this was their reply ( they have a point in that the machining process is more accurate than the casting of the fork legs):

Sent: Monday, March 08, 2004 10:55 AM
Subject: Re: clearance issues with Iso front hubs and Fox forks

Hi Bill,

I have heard of this issue with about every imaginable combination of fork and brake. All I can offer to do for you is to have you send in your hub and we will measure it in our machine shop to make sure it it within the ISO tolerance specifications of .401" +- .010". Since we have been manufacturing the ISO hub I have never had one come back that was out of spec. You are still welcome to send it back though. Please let me know if you would like to send it back and I will assign you an RA#.

A good thing to keep in mind is that machining is a more accurate manufacturing process than casting of forging.

Thanks for your patience. We have recently relocated to Portland and are still getting settled in.

JEN
Tech/Warranty
King Cycle Group
2801 NW Nela Street
Portland, OR 97210
503.972.4050
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What does a Chris King "ISO" hub have to do with ISO (as in www.iso.org)? Are they using "ISO" as a brand name or what? :confused:
 
#22 ·
dave_f said:
What does a Chris King "ISO" hub have to do with ISO (as in www.iso.org)? Are they using "ISO" as a brand name or what? :confused:
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There is an International Standard spec for disc brakes which includes measurements and tolerances on calipers, rotors, hubs, fork mounts, etc so they can all work together. Several years ago everyone had their own mounting, 4 bolt Formula/Coda, 5 bolt Hopes, 6 bolt Hayes etc. Now almost everyone follows the 51mm mounts and 6 bolt rotors. The most noteable exceptions would be Manitou's insistance on 74mm Post Mount and Shimano's centerlock rotors.

Anyway, King used to sell a universal disc hub that used adapters for the many different mounts. Since almost everyone adopted the IS 6 bolt rotor mount, King decided to make an IS specific hub and called it the ISO Disc.
 
#23 ·
follow you so far

Homebrew said:
...King decided to make an IS specific hub and called it the ISO Disc.
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I know it sounds like splitting hairs, but calling an "IS specific hub" the "ISO Disc" may be misleading. Maybe the following could help:

Statement:

"we will measure it in our machine shop to make sure it it within the ISO tolerance specifications of .401" +- .010"

Possible translation 1:
"we will check it to make sure it's within the manufacturing tolerances of the design specifications we made up for that part. Whether anyone ever has or will make a fork or brake that will work correctly with it is unknown."

Possible translation 2:
"we will check it to make sure it's within the manufacturing tolerances as specified in IS(O?) standard number xxxx, revision y.y which ensures that forks and brakes manufactured in compliance with that standard will work together."

Which translation should I be reading?
 
#24 ·
dave_f said:
What does a Chris King "ISO" hub have to do with ISO (as in www.iso.org)? Are they using "ISO" as a brand name or what? :confused:
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ISO publishes standards: thats exactly what they do. Information on what they are and how they are funded is available on their website. maybe you should be the chairman of the bicycle comittee :D Big advantage to manufacturers is that their stuff will bolt on to other peoples stuff. With Shimano, they feel that they are big enough that people can just damn well buy their BB for their cranks
 
#26 · (Edited)
dave_f said:
I know it sounds like splitting hairs, but calling an "IS specific hub" the "ISO Disc" may be misleading. Maybe the following could help:

Statement:

"we will measure it in our machine shop to make sure it it within the ISO tolerance specifications of .401" +- .010"

Possible translation 1:
"we will check it to make sure it's within the manufacturing tolerances of the design specifications we made up for that part. Whether anyone ever has or will make a fork or brake that will work correctly with it is unknown."

Possible translation 2:
"we will check it to make sure it's within the manufacturing tolerances as specified in IS(O?) standard number xxxx, revision y.y which ensures that forks and brakes manufactured in compliance with that standard will work together."

Which translation should I be reading?
Click to expand...
ISO is pretty specific and much more meaningful. it is not necessarily the same as IS. I can assume that there is an ISO published standard for bicycle disk brake hubs, which includes the dimension mentioned above. Maybe you can do some research on this and get back to us.
 
#27 ·
Actually, I did have a look at the ISO page referenced, and at the drawings and info posted by Magura, Hayes, etc. when I was trying to figure out which part was out of spec. I originally intended to bring up the issue with whoever was advertizing their stuff as being ISO (or IS2000 or whatever) compliant when it doesn't comply (or so I thought, cause it doesn't fit together).

I can find no reference to an ISO standard covering disc brake dimensions for bicycles. If anyone has the reference number, feel free to enlighten me.

Till then, I doubt that they will make me chairman, since I don't believe in the existence of their disc brake spec :) .

I will try mailing Chris King and see if they reply. Don't know why they should, it's not like it's an essential problem, or that they are going to sell me something. Customers first.

In the meantime, I stand by my belief that the statement "IS(O) standard" adds about as much value to a fork/brake/hub as "Meets all applicable standards for use on the planet Mars." :D
 
#28 ·
Marzocchi/King/magura same rub

I have a 2000 Z-1 CR with 00 Magura Louise. Ran in XT hubs for 3 years with 2 .5mm shims in the front. Switched to Kings, no shims and get some inside rub. Has anyone considered facing the 6 hub contact points to create space instead of shaving their fork tabs?
 
#29 ·
Mr Magoo said:
I have a 2000 Z-1 CR with 00 Magura Louise. Ran in XT hubs for 3 years with 2 .5mm shims in the front. Switched to Kings, no shims and get some inside rub. Has anyone considered facing the 6 hub contact points to create space instead of shaving their fork tabs?
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Yebbut two points (on the fork) are easier than six points. What would you use? How would you ensure evenness/flatness on all six points? Seems like there is a greater chance of error when doing it on the hub.
 
#30 ·
Mr Magoo said:
I have a 2000 Z-1 CR with 00 Magura Louise. Ran in XT hubs for 3 years with 2 .5mm shims in the front. Switched to Kings, no shims and get some inside rub. Has anyone considered facing the 6 hub contact points to create space instead of shaving their fork tabs?
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In this case facing the hub surface would move the rotor in the wrong direction. You would actually want to shim the rotor to move it away from the inside pad..
 
#31 ·
Very Sharp!

I'm sitting here at work, making a drawing and you are correct.
Now, any thoughts on shimming the 6 rotor bolts to equal (zero minus one) caliper shim?
Might I get some howling from harmonic vibration?
 
#32 ·
Mr Magoo said:
I'm sitting here at work, making a drawing and you are correct.
Now, any thoughts on shimming the 6 rotor bolts to equal (zero minus one) caliper shim?
Might I get some howling from harmonic vibration?
Click to expand...
you can use 6 caliper shims on the rotor (one for each bolt). however shimming the caliper has the same effect. either option will fix rubbing on the inside pad. it's rubbing on the outside pad that needs metal removal.
 
#33 ·
back to facing, not shimming

I need to face (reduce) either the hub, the caliper, or the fork to create some breathing room between the left side (single piston side). I need to state at the bike before I post any more. Thanks for the help. All suggestions appreciated.
 
#34 ·
Mr Magoo said:
I need to face (reduce) either the hub, the caliper, or the fork to create some breathing room between the left side (single piston side). I need to state at the bike before I post any more. Thanks for the help. All suggestions appreciated.
Click to expand...
I would definitely go with facing the fork with a Magura Gnan-o-mat or similar Hope tool.
 
#37 · (Edited)
I'd be worried about that washer and your fork. It all depends how tight the lower bushings run, but it could make them bind a little. Do you notice any more stiction?

The king measurement comes out at 10.18 +/- 0.25mm which compares well with the hayes drawing of 10.15 +/- 0.1mm, with the exception of their tolerances being over twice as big :confused: I though CK would have the tightest tolerances.

I've got a few hubs here I was going to measure (formula, shimano, Real), but I left my verniers at work.

I should add that any machine shop can face any frame, fork or caliper to work. Possibly cheaper and easier than finding a bike shop with the tools and knowledge.
 
#38 ·
Some additional info

Dougal said:
The king measurement comes out at 10.18 +/- 0.25mm which compares well with the hayes drawing of 10.15 +/- 0.1mm, with the exception of their tolerances being over twice as big :confused: I though CK would have the tightest tolerances.

I've got a few hubs here I was going to measure (formula, shimano, Real), but I left my verniers at work.
Click to expand...
As suggested elsewhere in this thread, I did eMail Chris King asking about the whole ISO thing. Someone did get back to me promptly (Chris king gets bonus points from me for having a good ethic here) and to paraphrase, they said "go ask Hayes". So, I',m not surprised their dimensions match the Hayes drawing.

Magura and DT spec 10.4mm in their drawings, and my DT Swiss hub measures 10.4 +/- 0.1mm.

The only other fork/brake/hub company I found (other than CK) who mentions "ISO" anywhere is Pace. I was able to ask someone knowledgeable from Pace at the Eurobike trade show about it, and they confirmed that there is no ISO (as in International Organisation for Standards) brake standard. Their response was that there is a sort of industry standard floating around, and that Shimano is the authority people go to with questions about dimensions.

Dougal said:
I should add that any machine shop can face any frame, fork or caliper to work. Possibly cheaper and easier than finding a bike shop with the tools ...
Click to expand...
I agree.

Dougal said:
...and knowledge.
Click to expand...
That's the part I'd be concerned about.
 
#39 ·
Aftermarket to the rescue!

it's time for someone to step up and produce some correctly re-spaced Kinng replacement parts. There seems to be a market and Kingg is generally too overwhelmed by demand to be able to offer such a thing. These would be easy to produce.

I run an '05 Vanilla with Kiing and Aphid mechanicals (180mm rotor on Haze adapter ) and the rotor comes extremely close to the adapter, and it has rubbed occasionally due to flex.

PS: IS disc mounting is a crappy system. Posts mounts make much more sense. It's dopey to stick with it just beause it's what we already have. But that's the bike industry...
 
#40 ·
trouble here too.

I have a King/Manitou Black/Hayes HFX Mag combo here. In my case, I had to move the rotor closer to the caliper because the slots on the caliper would not move enough to eliminate rubbing. I ended up putting washers between the rotor and the hub... no problems to speak of so far. Also, I had Avid mechs before... they worked fine, I'm assuming because the CPS bolts allowed more movement. But when I smashed my front wheel and swapped in an old one built on a Real disc hub, I had to readjust the caliper all over again. So my King is definitely different than at least the Real hub.
 
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