Mountain Bike Reviews Forum banner

Looking for training advice for a race that just graduated to Elite...and is underpowered

981 views 19 replies 14 participants last post by  LMN  
#1 ·
I know this is a long shot (and I long read!) but I thought I'd post looking for ideas from the MTB brain trust.

My son has been XCO MTB (and cyclocross) racing competitively for more than 5 years now. He's enjoyed the sport immensely and has had some success and great experiences training and racing both in NA and Europe.

He graduated from junior is now racing elite. Unfortunately he hasn't the season he was hoping for. His problem is mostly around maintaining high enough power for the longer XCO races. He often finishes major races feeling that he just "didn't have the legs" to keep up.

The challenge is that he has been training for a long time and has a comprehensive training plan from a very competent professional MTB coach. It includes a heavy dose of zone 2 training, endurance training, intervals, and gym time focused both on core and legs. He trains in the winter in the gym and on zwift, early spring in training camps for z2, late spring with road intervals, and then tapers into MTB race season. Recovery built into the training blocks. Training weeks range from ~12-20 hours depending on the agenda. He follows fueling best practices both before, during and after races.

He does really well in short track races, long gravel races (ie >3h) and road races. Often exceeding his expectations and feeling strong during the race. Shorter XCO 'training races' at our local weekly series go well. But the big XCO races have been a challenge especially for the last few laps. He has even had a few races where his legs completely cramped up even though he fueled and hydrated well. And we are a bit stuck on 'why' and it can be pretty frustrating.

His coach has tried mixing up his training, and focusing a lot of fueling and recovery. And working on both technical skills and efficiency. But it feels like we are missing something.

My best guess is that his training has optimized his cardio system so he can deliver sustained high power at steady high cadences, but that doesn't translate as well to the low cadence/high-torque/variable output demands of XCO.
He is going away to university in the fall but wants to continue racing. He won't be able to maintain anywhere near that amount of training though.

I think the best solution for him is to try to maintain his cardio fitness but with significantly fewer hours. And then focus on leg strength primarily in the gym but with medium weight and higher reps to build a little more power. And switch interval training from gravel/road to technical MTB trails where high torque is required (punchy climbs, rocks/roots etc).

In hindsight I think he his training plan might have been a little more productive if he moved some of the interval work to MTB trails to simulate more of the XCO race demands. That is tricky without the right trails though.

We haven't gotten him 'lab tested' but that might be next on the queue at the end of the season. Of course it is possible that he just doesn't have the genetics but that is a hard pill to swallow.

Thanks for reading. Any ideas?
 
#2 ·
To start off, would you have any more data on the kid?

Weight/Height
CP Profile?/ Power Profile or numbers per 5s,30s,1min,5min, 10min,20min?
Max heartrate / Threashold heartrate / typical avarage HR for XCO race?

From an honest perspective, how good are your kid at suffering? Really going to the edge of things during training?
Genetics will of course have an impact, but I think with the right training and dedication you still can reach national level before it starts to hinder you. Of course that might mean that you need to train more/smarter than the rest.
 
#3 ·
Having been entering university myself once-upon-a-time and debating whether I should invest the time in trying to compete in elite level athletics... I'd recommend to your son to do some soul-searching and decide if he wants mtb to be a career / life goal. If not, I'd recommend dialing back the training and racing ambitions significantly to allow time for academics, social life, and trying other stuff. Sure, do some training for exercise and some casual races, but taking a year or two off of serious training and jumping back in if he's so passionate about racing he can't live without spending 20+ hours a week on the bike.
That at least is what I'd tell former me, and is true of almost everyone I know. The exceptions were individuals that had competing at olympic or world level as a life goal, and sacrificing all the other aspects of life to train 30+ hours a week was worth it to them.

PS On the topic of your actual question: I'm less qualified than his coach to offer actual advice on training regimen, but on the mental side of things it can be very valuable to do one or more races where you deliberately "negative split", let some people pass at the beginning, and see how many you can pass and finish strong at the end. When you get to the end, if it felt like you had more to give, you can iterate and find the correct mid-point between blowing up at the end and not giving enough early. I've also seen it suggested that cramps primarily come from bigger efforts than your body is used to (vs hydration or electrolytes or whatever), so more race simulations might be valuable.
 
#5 ·
If he's really planning to pursue mtb/cycling as a career, best advice I can offer is send him to a college with a strong cycling team and community somewhere near/in the mountains. Otherwise, it just isn't realistic to continue at the elite level, at least in my opinion (and somewhat experience). Send him off to Ft Lewis College in Durango, he'll find out pretty quick if he's elite material.

May just need to give him time as well. Keep in mind that most elites have quite a few more years of intensive aerobic base in their legs. Pretty rare that a junior moves up and is immediately competitive against the pros.
 
#6 · (Edited)
We haven't gotten him 'lab tested' but that might be next on the queue at the end of the season. Of course it is possible that he just doesn't have the genetics but that is a hard pill to swallow.

Thanks for reading. Any ideas?
My ideas...

The US coaches and Euro team managers/DS would already be giving your son (and you) the real-world input right now if they saw in him what you hope to see.

Using hindsight as 20/20 for both myself and the scores of local racers (in all sports) who spent years of life-sucking training and boatloads of money on and off the bike going to camps and big races, I'd get the lab data NOW and put ego aside if that pill is too hard to swallow.

Cycling is less like, for example, pro motocross where work ethic and mental strength can make champions (Ryan Dungey, Ricky Carmichael, to name a few). Cycling at elite level and beyond is kinda like dating: eventually they want to know "what's your number?"

I've seen fast local racers get rides at Colorado schools (I know there are fast programs elsewhere) only to drop out when meeting their "brother from another mother" with superior genetics and the same work ethic. So many fast high school kids with middle-upper class parents doing whatever it takes to race the good events and get into the good development programs. I see those racers come home on holiday. They either stopped riding bikes completely (from burnout or frustration of being pack-fill in college) or they've turned into super fast bikepackers who destroy local Strava KOMs before resuming van life making vids (dad told them to get a job). And they're a lot happier. I'm guessing because they swallowed that pill sooner rather than later.

Make the appointment. Get your son's numbers. Otherwise you're just rearranging chairs on a sinking ship.
 
#8 ·
My ideas...

The US coaches and Euro team managers/DS would already be giving your son (and you) the real-world input right now if they saw in him what you hope to see.

Using hindsight as 20/20 for both myself and the scores of local racers (in all sports) who spent years of life-sucking training and boatloads of money on and off the bike going to camps and big races, I'd get the lab data NOW and put ego aside if that pill is too hard to swallow.

Cycling is less like, for example, pro motocross where work ethic and mental strength can make champions (Ryan Dungey, Ricky Carmichael, to name a few). Cycling at elite level and beyond is kinda like dating: eventually they want to know "what's your number?"

I've seen fast local racers get rides at Colorado schools (I know there are fast programs elsewhere) only to drop out when meeting their "brother from another mother" with superior genetics and the same work ethic. So many fast high school kids with middle-upper class parents doing whatever it takes to race the good events and get into the good development programs. I see those racers come home on holiday. They either stopped riding bikes completely (from burnout or frustration of being pack-fill in college) or they've turned into super fast bikepackers who destroy local Strava KOMs before resuming van life making vids (dad told them to get a job). And they're a lot happier. I'm guessing because they swallowed that pill sooner rather than later.

Make the appointment. Get your son's numbers. Otherwise you're just rearranging chairs on a sinking ship.
To add to that, there are several universities (UC Davis for example) that have cycling performance labs run by well respected Ph.d’s who can put your son through the full spectrum of tests to quantify current and future performance numbers as training progresses.

The first thing I’d do is get the numbers now and then talk to other elite coaches to see what they think.
 
#9 · (Edited)
He does really well in short track races, long gravel races (ie >3h) and road races. Often exceeding his expectations and feeling strong during the race. Shorter XCO 'training races' at our local weekly series go well. But the big XCO races have been a challenge especially for the last few laps. He has even had a few races where his legs completely cramped up even though he fueled and hydrated well. And we are a bit stuck on 'why' and it can be pretty frustrating.
The most important thing for me on this has been gym work, and not just the squats and calfs, but other stuff like hips/flexors and so on, the stuff involved in the lower half of the body. I had a long time where I would just cramp on races and long rides, but the biggest difference, including all the hydration and anti-cramp gimmicks, was gym work. I'm thinking possibly a younger rider may not have enough developed muscle and may need to work on this.

We all know the importance of hydration and electrolytes, but the vast majority of racers I race with are plenty good with that. There's variance for sure, but almost no one is getting out there and just drinking water or not attempting to prevent water loss. Cramps are due to over-extending the muscles IMO. I say IMO because science hasn't really nailed down the complete understanding and how to "cure" it, there are generally accepted theories with good data backing them up, but not as simple as just "drinking water" and you stop cramping, or even drinking electrolyte and you stop cramping.
 
#14 ·
From a RD's standpoint, I'd say that you can get hydration, nutrition and electrolyte balance perfect, but if you contract a muscle repeatedly more forcefully or for a longer duration (or both) than you are conditioned to do from training, you will still eventually cramp. It's as much a fitness issue as anything else.
 
#12 ·
Wow that is valuable and thoughtful feedback. I was travelling yesterday and just caught up today. That info has given my son and I a lot to think about. Thanks @Jayem for the tips on gym workouts, @Mtbmandan for feedback on training while in university, @westin for your honest response, and everyone else for all of the great feedback!!

In Canada most of the national level races do not have a U23 category. So it means going directly from junior to elite which is a huge jump. It really isn't ideal but my guess is that there just haven't been enough athletes that continue after their junior races to justify the u23 category. And the non-elite categories in that age group have very low participation.

Having said that, but my son is also comparing himself to his peers in the same age group. He hasn't has the results he's expecting, but the strange thing is that it has mostly been limited to long XCO races. His strength during both short track, and long gravel races has been pretty solid. I do think the gap is less about muscle efficiency and cardio and more about leg muscle strength. But there likely isn't an easy answer.

We are going to pursue getting testing and finding exactly what that means. In the mean time he is starting university in the fall in a difficult program and the advice here has been helpful. We live in Canada so training with his school's cross country ski team might be his best (and only) option to maintain strength and some fitness.
 
#13 · (Edited)
(edit to add: if he is doing well in shorter events, i would think the opposite would be the problem, and that it is more of an endurance issue, or perhaps a mental block.)

i think it is important to keep in mind the definitions of the outputs and how to shape the inputs. for example - power. if you are really talking about power, moderate weight and high reps isn't going to help at all. it could actually erode actual power. if you are talking strictly about power you are looking at very low reps, high resistance, and doing it at explosive speed. power is all about clutch-dumping brutality. (a lot of cyclists completely misuse this term, probably due to looking at results over longer periods and back-calculating average power - but this isn't really consistent with the training principle.)

then there is the entire rest of the spectrum, all the way down to aerobic endurance. each piece of this spectrum requires different training, but the painful truth is that it is impossible to have all of these pieces optimized at the same time. and in a lot of cases training one thing is going to de-train another thing. the two types of training that de-tune the others the least are strength training and aerobic endurance training (provided that you aren't over-doing it and digging a hole you can't get out of.) the problem with strength training is it takes time to recover properly, so it is easy to screw up and overtrain. the problem with aerobic endurance is that it is time consuming. it's kind of like there are too many different pieces of pie to fit on the plate.

at the elite level i think there are three types of successful riders -
1) the cyborgs. they are just genetically a bit different and have a advantage. we all know these types of people. they take 6 months off, eat a bunch of donuts, and still kill it. (i hate these people :) )

2) the folks that look at the training schedule, figure out which races where they either WANT to do their best, or where they feel they have the best shot at winning - and plan their entire training schedule around those.

the thing with option 2 - it takes a lot of mental discipline to stick with all of the training, go do your best at the "other" races and get somewhat disappointing results, and keep things glued together to put your best efforts in the priority races.

3) the folks that try to follow a somewhat general training plan (kind of a misnomer there, as it is still quite tailored), and try to do their best at every race, hoping it all adds up at the end of the season.

i think the first step is trying to figure out which strategy to pursue.
 
#15 ·
another thing that comes to mind would be a mental block. i come from a different sport that has a lot more in common than many would think. i am naturally built for endurance and on paper it would seem that i should do better at endurance tasks than shorter tasks. my endurance training went easy and i tended to gravitate towards it. in reality i generally did a LOT better at crunch time when the brutality was at the start and you just had to hang in there for the finish.

for me, the problem was that if the brutality was at the end, my mental game was a bit fried by the time i got to the brutality. even though on paper i should have been able to do it, i would just kind of mentally erode and not be able to conjure the forces required to throw all of the coal to it at the end. even after years of thinking about it, i am not really sure if it was a fear of failure, a fear of success, some psychological need to not fully empty the gas tank, etc. if i were to guess i would say a fear of success (which sounds like the craziest thing on earth, but they are out there.)

this brings up the role of sports psychologists. i am not remotely close to being an elite athlete. or even much above fair to middling to be honest. however, my wife's parents were elite athletes (olympics, national champs, etc), her dad is a long time coach, we have know a handful of people who are elite athletes, and we have friends who's kids probably know your kid. basically all elite or close to elite athletes these days have or use a sports psychologist.

not saying that is the case in your situation, but just brainstorming. part of me looks back at when i was your son's age and would give anything to have one more shot at it. but the other part of me shudders at the thought.
 
#17 ·
I was a top level junior and then pro downhill racer in the late 90’s and early 00’s, and looking back, I think the biggest differentiator among myself and my peers was mental not physical. There were several times where I had the speed to podium at big races but made dumb mistakes or put too much pressure on myself and crashed.

At the top level, the physical differences among competitors are often small but the mental game can be a huge factor.
 
#16 ·
I could throw a dozen suggestions and if I was lucky one of them might be right. But honestly without seeing what you son has actually been doing for training, I can’t make a good suggestion.

I am petty well retired from elite coaching now but if you want someone to take an outsider look I can do so. Just send me a PM
 
#19 ·
My son and I had a bit of a retrospective on the season so far while reviewing the feedback here. It was definitely a useful exercise and something that should probably be done regularly. Including looking at power numbers. After looking back at his training leading up to the season it became pretty obvious that illness was a significant problem. His coach had solid plans for interval training in late spring, but a lot of those were disrupted since my son picked up a bad cold on three separate occasions at the worst times. That really sucked. Lots of zone 2 training in the spring, but much less interval training then we thought. Probably not the complete story but maybe a piece of the puzzle.

This has also been a good learning experience for me since I also know other kids that have similar concerns. It definitely isn't easy for those that aren't cyborgs but train really hard and don't see the improvements they were expecting.

Next challenge will be to figure out what training might be possible during university; but knowing that it won't be possible to stay competitive. It is a shame that there aren't that many young racers in between "elite" and "sport" categories to keep part-time racers interested :(

Next up is to contact a lab to get some testing done.
 
#20 ·
There are a ton of U23 racers who train and go to university. I rode with two of Canada’s best u23s today and both of them are right on track with their university. And they are doing the full World Cup schedule.

The whole point of the u23 category is for riders to go to school while racing.