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Nerding out about tires (general tire chat)

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#21 ·
snow snakes said:
I guess you're most likely trolling, but WTB offers many of their tires in "light" and "tough" casings (weight savings vs. puncture protection) and "fast rolling" vs "high grip " compounds (rolling speed and durability vs. traction). Tough/Fast Rolling tends to work great for rear tires on bigger bikes, light/fast rolling is awesome for XC tires, and light/high grip is usually great for any front tire.
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Nope, not trolling. I view those two words as mutually exclusive and/or contradiction in terms. A large, wide tire with ample volume and ability to absorb vibration and impacts will tend to be heavy. It also provides the best grip. You can't really have it both ways. A "light" tire tends to be much narrower, less volumenous, higher thread-count, thinner sidewalls and fast. But "high grip?" Not compared to its much larger, wider and heavier counterpart.

It's a trade -off with everyone trying to optimize for both. But it's just like the adage, "Light, strong, cheap. Pick two." You can't have all three.

I laugh whenever someone mentions "light" and "29'er" in the same sentence. Coming off of cross-country 26" light tires, I've simply given up on anything considered "light" in my book. Tires are boat anchors today. But I'm happy with the trade-off, as today's tires offer so much goodness in the gnar. Combined with larger wheels and excellent suspension, "picking a line" is almost not necessary anymore.
 
#22 ·
snow snakes said:
It is astonishing to me how fast the Schwalbe radials are downhill, exactly because of that. I might have to try even more pressure in them to see if it improves the uphill side of things. I generally prefer faster rolling rear tires with a tougher casing, and grippy front tires with a lighter casing, so the loss of the Tough/Fast rolling WTB Trail Boss has left a serious void for me.
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I've been reading about those radials...might have to invest in a pair and see how I like them.
 
#23 ·
What I want from a tire:

Predictability and durability

I want a tire that lets go when I expect it, so drifting through the loose I want to have control over that "loss of traction". In terms of stickiness, truthfully that is more skill than tire; do it right and any tire will stick.

A tire should last a season, I'm not expecting miracles, but at $75+ each, I do expect to wear them down at least half way before they tear.

Last summer I tore the sidewall on three sets of Maxxis EXO, so I'm done with them.

I started riding Conti's last summer, Kryps Enduro on my big bike and Kryp Endurance on my SS, and I have yet to have a tire failure and two tires are already wearing thin.

Bonus: Kryp Trail Endurance are $50 each (y)
 
#24 ·
TandemBear said:
Nope, not trolling. I view those two words as mutually exclusive and/or contradiction in terms. A large, wide tire with ample volume and ability to absorb vibration and impacts will tend to be heavy. It also provides the best grip. You can't really have it both ways. A "light" tire tends to be much narrower, less volumenous, higher thread-count, thinner sidewalls and fast. But "high grip?" Not compared to its much larger, wider and heavier counterpart.

It's a trade -off with everyone trying to optimize for both. But it's just like the adage, "Light, strong, cheap. Pick two." You can't have all three.

I laugh whenever someone mentions "light" and "29'er" in the same sentence. Coming off of cross-country 26" light tires, I've simply given up on anything considered "light" in my book. Tires are boat anchors today. But I'm happy with the trade-off, as today's tires offer so much goodness in the gnar. Combined with larger wheels and excellent suspension, "picking a line" is almost not necessary anymore.
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That’s…traditional of you. Tire tech is changing and understanding of how tires work is growing. Look at how the gravel bike community is exploring ways that wide mountain bike tires are faster rolling than narrower slick treaded tires.
 
#25 ·
snow snakes said:
I wasn't up to my usual tire nerdery over the first half of the summer, as I committed early on to the WTB Macro as my race tire, and was pretty much just riding that. However, I am now in the post-race part of the season, and have more room to try stuff out. On my 120/140 bike, I've been trying out the Macro on my XC wheelset, but with the Light/Fast Rolling that I've been using out back, with the new Light/High Grip version out front, which is a huge step up in confidence for a barely noticeable increase in rolling speed. On the trail wheelset, I've been running my old mainstay Vigilante light/high grip out front with the new Peacekeeper out back - haven't had enough rides on the Peacekeeper to say much about it yet.
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Great thread idea @snow snakes -- I think it's useful to think about tires as a "system" (along with rims/wheels, inserts, and PSI) that aligns with a bike's overall intentions. These individual tire-by-tire threads are useful to some extent but I also like hearing about/discussing the whole picture.

I tend to appreciate bikes that bridge a gap between genres or provide something interesting within a given class of bike, so the best approach is often to run a weird/mismatched tire combo that either (a) makes a longer-travel, heavier bike roll a bit faster, or (b) keeps a lighter, more pedally bike on this side of the "too sketchy to ride real trails" equation. The Vigi L/HG front, Peacekeeper L/HG rear seems like a perfect example in terms of a capable trail/all-mountain bike that can still pedal all day. (Or even Peacekeeper L/HG front, Macro L/HG rear for an even more XC-style bike.)

Other combos I'd be curious to try that fall into a similar cross-genre category for a pedally trail bike in the Northeast:
  • Conti Magnotal Trail/Soft rear, Kryptotal enduro/super-soft front: might be an odd mismatch of casings though I appreciate some extra damping up front. I've been wanting softer rubber with lighter casings in the new Conti line, so this could be ideal.
  • Maxxis Forekaster 2.4 EXO+/Maxterra rear, DHR II 2.4 EXO Maxxgrip front: I was a longtime fan of running a DHRII or High Roller 2.3 up front with a 2.35 Ikon or Ardent Race in the rear, and this is kind of the next step up from there for a modern trail bike. I wish the DHR II 2.5 came in an EXO or EXO+ Maxxgrip as I like the idea of a little more volume on the front.
  • Schwalbe Nobby Nic Super Trail/Ultra Soft rear, Magic Mary Trail Pro Radial/Ultra Soft front: partly inspired by the Raceface Era SL release video, I've been running this combo on my Element set up 120/140. I could see this being pretty much the ideal wet conditions setup for New England trail riding. (I could definitely get away with the Albert on the front for dry conditions but I don't think it rolls much faster than a Magic Mary; a Tacky Chan in Radial casing would be ideal for summer.)
  • Specialized Purgatory 2.4 Grid Trail T9 rear, Butcher 2.4 Grid Trail T9 front: I have been wanting to try the "new" Butcher 2.4 up front with the L-shaped side knobs (very DHR -esque) but the updated Eliminator isn't quite as fast-rolling as I'd want, so Purgatory out back seems ideal.
I also want to try some other, borderline XC tire combos (like the Macro/Peacekeeper) on the Element rather than my usual Wicked Will/Nobby Nic, but I'm pretty hooked on having a really grippy tire compound up front for those slimey, humid summer days in the northeastern rainforest.
 
#26 ·
snow snakes said:
Out of curiosity, which Pirellis have you been running? I've been curious about those tires ever since trying the Scorpion XC on a REEB SST demo and coming away very impressed.
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Pirelli has an awesome QC program from what I can tell. I live in the hardpack desert, and the Hardwall mixed tires are killing it here. There are 2 tread patterns in the "M" model (3 actually), and the small block makes a very fast tough rear tire at 1000g for a true 2.6. Sadly they have already discontinued my favorite "M" rear tire, which is almost XC fast with enduro resistance to pinching. Pirellis biggest downside is figuring out the nomenclature. It is very non-traditional.
 
Discussion starter · #27 ·
gubbinalia said:
Great thread idea @snow snakes -- I think it's useful to think about tires as a "system" (along with rims/wheels, inserts, and PSI) that aligns with a bike's overall intentions. These individual tire-by-tire threads are useful to some extent but I also like hearing about/discussing the whole picture.

I tend to appreciate bikes that bridge a gap between genres or provide something interesting within a given class of bike, so the best approach is often to run a weird/mismatched tire combo that either (a) makes a longer-travel, heavier bike roll a bit faster, or (b) keeps a lighter, more pedally bike on this side of the "too sketchy to ride real trails" equation. The Vigi L/HG front, Peacekeeper L/HG rear seems like a perfect example in terms of a capable trail/all-mountain bike that can still pedal all day. (Or even Peacekeeper L/HG front, Macro L/HG rear for an even more XC-style bike.)

Other combos I'd be curious to try that fall into a similar cross-genre category for a pedally trail bike in the Northeast:
  • Conti Magnotal Trail/Soft rear, Kryptotal enduro/super-soft front: might be an odd mismatch of casings though I appreciate some extra damping up front. I've been wanting softer rubber with lighter casings in the new Conti line, so this could be ideal.
  • Maxxis Forekaster 2.4 EXO+/Maxterra rear, DHR II 2.4 EXO Maxxgrip front: I was a longtime fan of running a DHRII or High Roller 2.3 up front with a 2.35 Ikon or Ardent Race in the rear, and this is kind of the next step up from there for a modern trail bike. I wish the DHR II 2.5 came in an EXO or EXO+ Maxxgrip as I like the idea of a little more volume on the front.
  • Schwalbe Nobby Nic Super Trail/Ultra Soft rear, Magic Mary Trail Pro Radial/Ultra Soft front: partly inspired by the Raceface Era SL release video, I've been running this combo on my Element set up 120/140. I could see this being pretty much the ideal wet conditions setup for New England trail riding. (I could definitely get away with the Albert on the front for dry conditions but I don't think it rolls much faster than a Magic Mary; a Tacky Chan in Radial casing would be ideal for summer.)
  • Specialized Purgatory 2.4 Grid Trail T9 rear, Butcher 2.4 Grid Trail T9 front: I have been wanting to try the "new" Butcher 2.4 up front with the L-shaped side knobs (very DHR -esque) but the updated Eliminator isn't quite as fast-rolling as I'd want, so Purgatory out back seems ideal.
I also want to try some other, borderline XC tire combos (like the Macro/Peacekeeper) on the Element rather than my usual Wicked Will/Nobby Nic, but I'm pretty hooked on having a really grippy tire compound up front for those slimey, humid summer days in the northeastern rainforest.
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I hate to go on and on about missing the Trail Boss, but I keep finding that the Achilles heel‘ of these “mullet” tire combos is the cornering knobs on the rear tire. I really wanted the Vigi/Peacekeeper to be just a faster version of Vigi/TB, but the cornering knobs are just mismatched enough that I lose grip in the rear waaaaay before the front in corners. I’m a little late to the semi-slick train, but that might be exactly what I want for the rear.
 
#28 ·
snow snakes said:
I hate to go on and on about missing the Trail Boss, but I keep finding that the Achilles heel‘ of these “mullet” tire combos is the cornering knobs on the rear tire. I really wanted the Vigi/Peacekeeper to be just a faster version of Vigi/TB, but the cornering knobs are just mismatched enough that I lose grip in the rear waaaaay before the front in corners. I’m a little late to the semi-slick train, but that might be exactly what I want for the rear.
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That's an interesting problem, and yes, it does point toward needing a pretty aggressive semi-slick like the old Rock Razor, Minion SS or Riddler to keep the rear from sliding too much in corners. I don't personally have that issue unless I'm riding faster, more supportive corners with a drifty top layer, like decomposing granite or deep leaf duff. For most trail riding I'm pretty happy with something in the Wicked Will / Nobby Nic family of cornering knob.
 
#29 ·
For my very middle of the road trail riding, I have yet to be let down by my Schwalbe Albert Trail Ultrasoft in 29 x 2.5. Works very well for me. I'm not riding in the wet much, I think if I was, I'd maybe want a Magic Mary. I've been running a NOS 29 x 2.3 Eliminator Grid Trail T7 on the rear, which is fine unless I'm trying to make a small change in direction (specifically on loose over hardpack surfaces) where you don't really lean the bike way over like you would in a real corner. I liked how my previous Ground Control didn't have this zone and it seemed to behave more uniformly all around but ultimately the tread wasn't aggressive enough and it tended to skitter around more than I would have liked, especially under braking as @snow snakes mentioned. Current tires are on Ibis Send 35mm inner width rims (2.35 GC Grid T7 was on a 30mm rim). Currently NorCal but moving to PHX soon, and wondering if you guys have any suggestions? I'll run the Eliminator until it wears out, it's not like I can't deal with it, but I'm eyeballing the Pirelli Scorpion Trail M...
 
Discussion starter · #30 ·
I installed the Enduro casing Argotal/Kryptotal on my Sentinel today, and it instantly felt better than either the Gravity or Trail radials in every regard. The number of basically un-ramped knobs on the Alberts, combined with the more compliant casing, seems to be a perfect recipe for increased drag, even at quite high pressures. The Contis roll noticeably faster, and have a (to me) much more comfortable sensation of leaning and then "catching" in the corners, with an easily available controlled slide, vs the extremely grippy yet somehow vague feeling of the Alberts.

Comparing Conti to Conti, it's extremely curious how much faster the Enduro Argotal/Kryptotal Re feel vs the DH Kryptotal Fr/Xynotal. I would think that tread pattern would trump casing in this instance, but the Enduro casing completely eliminated the sensation of drag I felt running the DH tires, despite having much more aggressive knobs. The Argotal is a very cool tire - at a glance, I would think that the tall knobs and wide 2-2 spacing would make them vague on hardpack, but the knobs are so well supported and put so much rubber on the ground that it feels more similar to the Butcher (one of my favorite tires). The taller center knobs also give it a slightly more "round" feel in the corners than the spiky look would initially suggest.
 
#32 ·
3_Dimensional said:
For my very middle of the road trail riding, I have yet to be let down by my Schwalbe Albert Trail Ultrasoft in 29 x 2.5. Works very well for me. I'm not riding in the wet much, I think if I was, I'd maybe want a Magic Mary. I've been running a NOS 29 x 2.3 Eliminator Grid Trail T7 on the rear, which is fine unless I'm trying to make a small change in direction (specifically on loose over hardpack surfaces) where you don't really lean the bike way over like you would in a real corner. I liked how my previous Ground Control didn't have this zone and it seemed to behave more uniformly all around but ultimately the tread wasn't aggressive enough and it tended to skitter around more than I would have liked, especially under braking as @snow snakes mentioned. Current tires are on Ibis Send 35mm inner width rims (2.35 GC Grid T7 was on a 30mm rim). Currently NorCal but moving to PHX soon, and wondering if you guys have any suggestions? I'll run the Eliminator until it wears out, it's not like I can't deal with it, but I'm eyeballing the Pirelli Scorpion Trail M...
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I took the Eliminator down a steep, dry, loose descent yesterday and the lack of braking traction was pretty apparent. Not a huge fan of this tire. Might try a Conti next time!
 
#34 ·
3_Dimensional said:
I took the Eliminator down a steep, dry, loose descent yesterday and the lack of braking traction was pretty apparent. Not a huge fan of this tire. Might try a Conti next time!
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I put an Eliminator on the rear of my bike in Whistler. I had no problems with braking traction in very dry conditions.
 
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#35 ·
Curveball said:
3_Dimensional said:
I took the Eliminator down a steep, dry, loose descent yesterday and the lack of braking traction was pretty apparent. Not a huge fan of this tire. Might try a Conti next time!
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I put an Eliminator on the rear of my bike in Whistler. I had no problems with braking traction in very dry conditions.
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Which model and width? This is probably the current generation one, I have an older one, a 29 x 2.3 Grid Trail T7.
 
#36 ·
3_Dimensional said:
Which model and width? This is probably the current generation one, I have an older one, a 29 x 2.3 Grid Trail T7.
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It’s the T7 Grid Trail in 27.5 x 2.4. I was surprised at how well it held up in the bike park.
 
#37 ·
Curveball said:
3_Dimensional said:
Which model and width? This is probably the current generation one, I have an older one, a 29 x 2.3 Grid Trail T7.
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It’s the T7 Grid Trail in 27.5 x 2.4. I was surprised at how well it held up in the bike park.
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Nice. Maybe I will try the new version sometime. Does it have the drifty zone at moderate lean angles like mine does?
 
#39 ·
I generally find heavier trail to enduro casings to be MUCH more pliable and easier to mount up (as in set the bead in place) compared to XC casing tires. I basically do a bunch with both, racing XC for fitness and fun to help support the enduro-habit required climbing. The XC tire casings IME are crazy stiff and sometimes so much so that they will be folding along the bead layup and they won't straighten, so they'll leak at the little folds and it takes an extreme effort to get the bead to set. IMO, it must be that they do this to make them durable and light enough at the same time. If it was constructed like the enduro casing, it would be ripped to shreds at the first rock, because there'd be so much less material to make the weight target. I also don't seem to find a radical difference in tread compounds with these types of tires like I do with enduro stuff. Seems like with enduro you are much more engaging knobs and using those knobs in all conditions, whereas the small XC knobs just don't hook up enough or hard enough to really make a radical difference.

I definitely agree about side knobs, unless you are racing on some really smooth hardpack trail (Kincaid) you need more there to hook up at higher speeds in rougher corners.

I remember some of the old XC racing tires (I had). Hutchinson Mosquitoes. These were like 500g innertubes with the slightest bit of knobs on them. Compared to a modern tire, the casing was just a disaster waiting to happen. I'm also glad that Schwalbe beefed up their casings recently. The earlier stuff was just not appropriate except for like the first race with a brand new tire and even then you were kinda taking a chance. Glad to report that they seem much improved.

My current "heavy duty" XC race tires for high-stakes places rough DHs and the possibility of sharp rocks are 2.35 Rekon front and Rekon race rear. I think this gives me the side-knobs I need to help hook up and a little bit of rolling resistance help in the rear. The light duty setup is Rick/Ralph.

For anything other than XC race tires, I go for the softest compound I can. Grip is worth it. Yeah, a HR2 rolls pretty damn well, but it ain't got the traction in the nasty and when I'm maximizing fun, I'm looking for max traction.
 
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#40 ·
3_Dimensional said:
For my very middle of the road trail riding, I have yet to be let down by my Schwalbe Albert Trail Ultrasoft in 29 x 2.5. Works very well for me. I'm not riding in the wet much, I think if I was, I'd maybe want a Magic Mary. I've been running a NOS 29 x 2.3 Eliminator Grid Trail T7 on the rear, which is fine unless I'm trying to make a small change in direction (specifically on loose over hardpack surfaces) where you don't really lean the bike way over like you would in a real corner. I liked how my previous Ground Control didn't have this zone and it seemed to behave more uniformly all around but ultimately the tread wasn't aggressive enough and it tended to skitter around more than I would have liked, especially under braking as @snow snakes mentioned. Current tires are on Ibis Send 35mm inner width rims (2.35 GC Grid T7 was on a 30mm rim). Currently NorCal but moving to PHX soon, and wondering if you guys have any suggestions? I'll run the Eliminator until it wears out, it's not like I can't deal with it, but I'm eyeballing the Pirelli Scorpion Trail M...
Click to expand...
Agree on the Albert radials. I have Trail Soft F/R on my bigger bike, and it's a really good all-rounder trail tire. It can get a little skiddy in loose over hard, but the overall characteristics are just about perfect for aggressive trail use. Hoping Schwalbe adds a faster-rolling tread pattern radial for rear use.

Donkeeboy said:
What I want from a tire:

Predictability and durability

I want a tire that lets go when I expect it, so drifting through the loose I want to have control over that "loss of traction". In terms of stickiness, truthfully that is more skill than tire; do it right and any tire will stick.

A tire should last a season, I'm not expecting miracles, but at $75+ each, I do expect to wear them down at least half way before they tear.

Last summer I tore the sidewall on three sets of Maxxis EXO, so I'm done with them.

I started riding Conti's last summer, Kryps Enduro on my big bike and Kryp Endurance on my SS, and I have yet to have a tire failure and two tires are already wearing thin.

Bonus: Kryp Trail Endurance are $50 each (y)
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Problem is the Conti Endurance compound is terrible. Like, actually scary to ride terrible. I'd rather run an XC tire with a decent compound than a heavy trail tire that will give up traction with zero warning.
 
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